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[Etnos]

I was not talking in absolutes.

How's this?

The ratio back in the 1990's was so heavily skewed towards males as to make one believe there were no females actively creating or consuming the content. That included video games.

It is pretty cool when people show a link with some sort of serious statistical study when they make this claims. It seems to me there's been females on the internet since I started using it back in the 90s, anecdotical thou.

Either way, if true.. we DO really need more females doing nerdy things with us, a sausage fest is never fun... NEVER!

 

[Zetta]

Back in the day, there really were no girls on the Internet. The ones that said they were girls were more often than not men pretending to be girls. They were called Manginas in EverQuest.

I think it's an old school carry over. My first thought is they are a male pretending to be female. My second thought is I don't care if you're a man or a woman so there's no need to tell me.

By back in the day you mean before there was any internet right? I've played videogames with just as many girls as guys on/offline. Its just a regular occurrence, nothing special about it.

 

[WinFonda]

This is something that goes beyond just gaming though. Women are often referred to as "girls" in society up to the age of ~30.

I believe females of any age can be referred to informally as girls, especially by other females or a male of similar age. Whether or not it's offensive, I guess depends on the person and the context. Boy on the other hand is a noun used almost exclusively for males under 18 or pre-pubescent.

 

[The Albatross]

I think the term is stupid, but I get the point of it. It's like how many people still mention a "male nurse." I have a male friend who is a nurse, he does very well for himself, it's a respected, high paying and rewarding profession for anybody, yet it still raises eye brows and not amongst old crotchedy dudes, but even amongst young, progressive men and women. "Wait... John is a nurse? He's a male nurse?" It's because it's still generally kind of rare.

A "gamer" is a "game enthusiast," not simply a person who plays games. Just like a "film buff" or a "movie goer" is a movie enthusiast, not simply someone who goes to the movies once in a while or has watched a movie. Interestingly, my girlfriend probably plays more games than I do -- she plays flow, wordbase, threes, and so on, all the time on her phone... more than I play console or PC games. But, of the two of us, I would be the "gamer" and she wouldn't be because I am the game enthusiast of the two of us. So, if she a girl gamer? No, she's a girl, she plays games, but she's not a game enthusiast so I wouldn't call her a gamer.

I think the terms are stupid, but I don't think they need to "go away" or stopped being used. They're used because female game enthusiasts are still relatively rare. Sure, there's plenty of them now, but it's still less common... and that makes people differentiate.

 

[Crayons]

If a woman wants to describe herself as a "girl gamer" it's none of your fucking business. You don't get to pass judgement on it. End of story.

I hate to tell you but I can pass judgment on whatever and whoever I want. Just like I'm passing judgement on your zealous posts right bow.

 

[G-Fex]

Oh, and also agreeing with the notion that "gamers" as a term kind of sucks period. People are free to call themselves however they want, gamer, girl gamer, even boy gamer, or whatever, but I personally do prefer to avoid using gamer unless I can't help it.

Well if people want to use it I guess. It's not going away ever I guess.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Games+girls=''GAF graveyard''

 

[Vibranium]

It's a bad label in my opinion, but if a girl wants to describe herself like that, that is their choice. As for "gamer", I don't use it either these days, but it's not something I get upset about.

 

[Loakum]

no reaction what-so-ever. However, I don't know of anyone who still uses that phrase. Folks I know just say "gamer." The same they call male gamers.

 

[Westraid]

This whole girl gamer thing is overrated.

Guys should stop overreacting when they find out there's a girl playing a game, and girls should stop placing themselves on the girlgamer pedestal as an excuse to get attention. Do you have to lie about it? No. But you don't have to point it out at every opportunity either.
About 50% of the gamers is female, so it's not that special anymore.

In the end it's all about pressing buttons on a controller or keyboard, or jumping in front of a camera, which makes gender completely irrelevant.

 

[Wazzy]

^
It's not always for attention and yet people keep claiming that.

There's still many people out there that treat female gamers like a rarity.

I hate to tell you but I can pass judgment on whatever and whoever I want. Just like I'm passing judgement on your zealous posts right bow.

Can we move on from that?

He doesn't mean you can't actually do it but that it's unfair and wrong to.

 

[Tigress]

I guarantee you that I've been on the internet longer than almost everybody in this thread. Probably before some of them were even born. So don't give me that.

Well I don't know about longer than most people here, but I've been on it long enough to remember muds (and telnetting into them) and when Netscape actually made browsing the web easier with actual images and such (vs. all text and using arrows to get to the next link). Which got me interested in making my own webpage (I started to protest something so I made a webpage so I could make the background all black to protest it, I can't even remember what it was but it had to do something with censorship on the net). I never really got into IRC but that's cause I found my own chat group place so saw no need of IRC so didn't bother even learning about it (so if I sound a little ignorant of what it is, I am. I just knew back in the day people kept talking about being on it and I knew I wasn't but didn't feel the need as I had my own place to chat with people). Also, using a unix server (That I still use) to read my emails (I forget the first email client I use but I use mutt now and have the same email from college as I got on a server some friends set up so people could still read Georgia Tech newsgroups as well as another server another friend set up that he still maintains).

I can say for sure it was 1994 cause I got into the internet when I went to college. And most my female friends in college used it as well (to be fair, I went to an engineering college, Georgia Tech). Some probably weren't into it as much as I was (but I've always been a total geek when it comes to computers) to be fair but it wasn't like they weren't there.

(and yes, it's scary to me now that there are people on the net that probably weren't even born when I first got on it... I don't honestly feel that old until I realize that)

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

My ex is a hardcore girl gamer, and quite attractive. I was very sad when we broke up because I had always wanted a girlfriend to play games with. It was as awesome as I had imagined it to be.

Of course she was not into everything, but we played fighting games (Naruto), hundreds of hours in MMOs, she was into anime and hong kong action movies too. Major Star Wars and Lord of the Rings nerd, a real tom boy. Not often that you those around that are hot.
A lot of guys are high over heels for her now. Still makes me sad sometimes that we're not together. But girl gamer is definitely something that attracts dudes or get their attention. When an attractive girl knows her Diablo or Starcraft it really raises eyebrows.


She loved playing slutty characters in games, but in MMOs she often played as male characters because she didn't wanted to be harassed.

 

[Anteater]

Does it provoke any reaction in you?

Whenever I see what the latest livestreams are on the PS4, there is always a glut of 'GIRL GAMER plays X' streams.

I can't quite put my finger on it but I find it a little bit irritating. My gut reaction is that I always wonder why the streamer adds gender into their experience. Why can't you just be a 'gamer'? Why can't it be more about the game you are playing than an advertisement? Is it simply a way to get more views?

I can't help the feeling that using the term to market oneself is a little bit retrograde and a bit depressing.

Is it just me that feels this way? Or am I just a misogynistic bitch in love with male power structures?

People can use whatever label/title they want, I don't really care to be honest, at the end it's the content they put out that matters.

 

[Morphine_OD]

I don't find it misogynistic, it's true that the majority of gamers are male, so when a girl plays games and you want to emphasize it, you say she's a "girl gamer". It's easy.

 

[Eusis]

I believe females of any age can be referred to informally as girls, especially by other females or a male of similar age. Whether or not it's offensive, I guess depends on the person and the context. Boy on the other hand is a noun used almost exclusively for males under 18 or pre-pubescent.

I think under 30s men have been called boys too, certainly some can still look like older teenagers.

 

[Karkador]

I don't find it misogynistic, it's true that the majority of gamers are male, so when a girl plays games and you want to emphasize it, you say she's a "girl gamer". It's easy.

Why would you want to emphasize it? I can't think of many (if not 0) instances where singling someone out based on gender or race or nationality is a lead-up to a positive thing in a gaming environment.

 

[Boy Wander]

My first reaction is "awesome, a girl who likes gaming and sees it as part of her identity". Gaming is still a male dominated pastime, in terms of sheer numbers, the way it is covered and the content of the games themselves. I'm sure a very small minority are looking for attention but that's the same as in all walks of life.

 

[H.Protagonist]

This whole girl gamer thing is overrated.

Guys should stop overreacting when they find out there's a girl playing a game, and girls should stop placing themselves on the girlgamer pedestal as an excuse to get attention. Do you have to lie about it? No. But you don't have to point it out at every opportunity either.
About 50% of the gamers is female, so it's not that special anymore.

In the end it's all about pressing buttons on a controller or keyboard, or jumping in front of a camera, which makes gender completely irrelevant.

No, guys should stop dismissing female players (the games they play, how they play them, why they play them, how many play them) or treating them like unicorns, and there'd be no need to identify our gender online. And girls can't 'place' themselves' on the pedestal as you say without all the guys who treat them as something rare and special.

 

[PK Gaming]

The character in my avatar is a girl gamer.

Actually no, that's misleading

The Ultimate Gamer, check it out.

 

[iori9999]

Lots of bannin in this thread.. Just curious though.. Why do I always seems to get into arguments with girls in the various games I played.. Usually for trying to treat them like how I would any other guy? Granted I know I can come off as standoffish at times, but I mean well.. Anyways I never really treat anyone different.. Sexual orientation, gender or race.. It doesn't matter.. I know trying to just talk like a regular guy around everyone isn't the best approach, but I figured in a gaming environment it doesn't matter..

 

[Corpekata]

I've always found that this "problem" is vastly overstated. Sort of like on reddit how you'll always see some massively upvoted tool that complains that he opened a door for a woman and she shamed him for being "chivalrous". Sure, it's probably happened before. But not to the extent that dudes on the internet want me to believe. I've only ever encountered the "Girl gamer" type a few times. Even looking at the currently streaming PS4 stuff, it's pretty tame. I see a few mentions of girl, but certainly not a glut like suggested.

 

[thewhitehawk]

To me its a term that started off as a practical joke years ago but has somehow mutated into a symbol of mockery, sexism and power depending on the circumstance.

 

[Lindsay]

There's still many people out there that treat female gamers like a rarity.

Including other females! So self-identifying as a "girl gamer" could also be taken as a way of females gamers reaching out to one another. Its not a cut & dry purely looking for attention thing.

 

[Wazzy]

No, guys should stop dismissing female players (the games they play, how they play them, why they play them, how many play them) or treating them like unicorns, and there'd be no need to identify our gender online. And girls can't 'place' themselves' on the pedestal as you say without all the guys who treat them as something rare and special.

This x100.

There wouldn't be a need to self identify if we weren't accused of only doing it for attention or that we're lying.

While the gaming medium has vastly improved, the community still struggles with the idea of women gamers. This is why it's so important we understand that putting all these rules on what constitutes a real gamer is damaging to the community. It's especialy damaging because these rules seem to only apply to women.

The character in my avatar is a girl gamer.

Actually no, that's misleading



The Ultimate Gamer, check it out.

Y u gotta make the wait more painful?

 

[TheJLC]

The term should be just gamer.

Unfortunately many guys dismiss female gamers and think that they have to be casuals or seeking attention. But it's also true that there are in fact attention seeking female gamers that use their sex appeal to get immature viewers in their channels. These female gamers unfortunately feed the stereotype unknowingly; that female gamers are seeking attention, thus not a true gamer.

Sometimes I feel the internet needs to grow up and accept male and female gamers as gamers without doubting because of gender. I greatly admire the female gamers that can handle all the BS thrown at them and are able to be the true gamer they want to be.

 

[Dark Schala]

I don't necessarily like treading into these threads that often, but my take on it is similar to Aeana's. Yes, there are certainly some girls who probably put it out there that they are female because they want the attention for Twitch money or YT money, but at the same time, there are females out there who just don't want to promote the illusion that "there are no girls on the Internet", "girls don't play video games", "girls only play Facebook/mobile games", "girls don't know any better and they get suckered into buying crappy shit", etc. At the same time, it can be kind of awkward whenever guys overreact positively and negatively when they find out a female is into video games, regardless of genre.

Last year, I started streaming more often because I had purchased a capture card. There were at least two streams where I used a microphone. One of which was archived (which is no longer archived because of what happened), and one of which wasn't. I don't know what happened, exactly. It must have been during AGDQ or something else, but someone ended up sending me harassing messages like this one:

...because they probably discovered that I am female because of one of the streams where I used a microphone. I don't make it an issue to make my gender public, even though I used to take the time to correct gender in posts back when I first posted on GAF. I ended up sending a copy of the message to Twitch support and tried to file a complaint, but nothing was really done. I have to admit that my feelings were pretty hurt (yeah, even after a dumb short message like that), and after that, I never used a mic on my channel again. I don't even openly link to my channel anymore and only stream for people I know and trust.

I end up getting messages like this on PSN because lord knows why (probably because my PSN avatar is of a female character). I actually think this kind of stuff is hilarious.

I've even gotten some friend requests on Miiverse because I am female with some accompanying messages that can make me feel a little uncomfortable (ie: u wanna wii u chat????), especially since I am more than likely older than the sender or they simply want to use the messaging service as essentially a pick-up service. It sucks. I'm genuinely stating my gender and putting my Mii on my Wii U because I don't think it's a bad thing to do; it's who I am. I'm not doing it for attention at all.

So while you can say that some women are using their gender as a means for attention, that isn't necessarily true. Some women just really want to state who they are and that's that. It just sucks when some of us get harassed online for it.

 

[Devolution]

Women and girls do things, bitter assholes get pissed off, other desperate assholes give them too much attention. News at 11.

 

[The Librarian]

I mean, I guess if I were to identify myself in a gaming context, one of the terms I'd use would be "gamer girl" or "girl gamer."

Don't see a huge problem with it. If gaming wasn't seen as a primarily male hobby, I'd probably be less pressed to qualify myself like that.

 

[Rex Griswold]

This is something that goes beyond just gaming though. Women are often referred to as "girls" in society up to the age of ~30.

And it does not always have insidious undertones.

"Are you going out with the boys tonight?"

"I'm going out with the girls tonight."

When used informally, there is no hidden meaning in referring to either men or women as boys or girls.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Well I don't know about longer than most people here, but I've been on it long enough to remember muds (and telnetting into them)

Ah yes, I played some MUDs/MOOs/MUSHes back in the mid-90s (text-based MMORPGs, for those who don't know). In fact, one of the first gamers I developed a friendship with online was with a woman on a Trek MOO.

So anyway, I've never thought that women playing online were a rarity. And in the early days, and later in the PC FPS scene, guys were generally always cool to the females playing. I think the console scene changed that, or at least that's when I noticed a huge increase in misogynistic and sexist comments. Perhaps because there's less of a self-policing community on consoles.

I really have no issue with what anyone calls themselves. The internet is like Hollywood; people come to reinvent themselves or take on a different persona. If some girls/women need to put "girl" in front of gamer, they have their reasons and who am I as a man to speak to their feelings of marginalization or harassment within the scene? Sure, there's female gamers out there not making positive contributions towards gender equality, but that number is probably far eclipsed by the number of male gamers still acting like cavemen.

 

[Eusis]

Seeing that Twitch example it still amazes me how some people can be complete and utter shitbags. I guess I shouldn't be surprised when we have countries like Saudi Arabia doing what they're doing, but it still pisses me off to see.

 

[jello44]

where is the rest of the comic? always wondered what where 1 to 8

http://i.imgur.com/bGQK1rg.jpg

 

[charlequin]

I was not talking in absolutes.

I'm not saying I disagree because it's possible to prove that were was an objectively non-zero number, I'm saying I disagree because even in the early days there were prominent women on the internet and the "lol no gurlz" routine was used primarily as a way to discredit and exclude them.

 

[Jucksalbe]

I have to admit that my feelings were pretty hurt (yeah, even after a dumb short message like that), and after that, I never used a mic on my channel again. I don't even openly link to my channel anymore and only stream for people I know and trust.

It's sad that you have to restrict yourself like that because of such people. I'm surprised Twich didn't act on that, but then again I don't have much experience with Twich and their customer service.

I end up getting messages like this on PSN because lord knows why (probably because my PSN avatar is of a female character).

It's probably more because your PSN ID sounds female. I often use female avatars on PSN and never got a message like that.

 

[inm8num2]

To me its a term that started off as a practical joke years ago but has somehow mutated into a symbol of mockery, sexism and power depending on the circumstance.

Agreed. It's weird...I've read before that some people don't feel comfortable revealing their female gender on the internet while discussing games because it either leads to ridicule and scorn, or it leads to fawning and creepiness.

 

[sploatee]

I don't necessarily like treading into these threads that often, but my take on it is similar to Aeana's. Yes, there are certainly some girls who probably put it out there that they are female because they want the attention for Twitch money or YT money, but at the same time, there are females out there who just don't want to promote the illusion that "there are no girls on the Internet", "girls don't play video games", "girls only play Facebook/mobile games", "girls don't know any better and they get suckered into buying crappy shit", etc. At the same time, it can be kind of awkward whenever guys overreact positively and negatively when they find out a female is into video games, regardless of genre.

Last year, I started streaming more often because I had purchased a capture card. There were at least two streams where I used a microphone. One of which was archived (which is no longer archived because of what happened), and one of which wasn't. I don't know what happened, exactly. It must have been during AGDQ or something else, but someone ended up sending me harassing messages like this one:

...because they probably discovered that I am female because of one of the streams where I used a microphone. I don't make it an issue to make my gender public, even though I used to take the time to correct gender in posts back when I first posted on GAF. I ended up sending a copy of the message to Twitch support and tried to file a complaint, but nothing was really done. I have to admit that my feelings were pretty hurt (yeah, even after a dumb short message like that), and after that, I never used a mic on my channel again. I don't even openly link to my channel anymore and only stream for people I know and trust.

I end up getting messages like this on PSN because lord knows why (probably because my PSN avatar is of a female character). I actually think this kind of stuff is hilarious.



I've even gotten some friend requests on Miiverse because I am female with some accompanying messages that can make me feel a little uncomfortable (ie: u wanna wii u chat????), especially since I am more than likely older than the sender or they simply want to use the messaging service as essentially a pick-up service. It sucks. I'm genuinely stating my gender and putting my Mii on my Wii U because I don't think it's a bad thing to do; it's who I am. I'm not doing it for attention at all.

So while you can say that some women are using their gender as a means for attention, that isn't necessarily true. Some women just really want to state who they are and that's that. It just sucks when some of us get harassed online for it.

First of all, it's awful that the horrible behaviour of some idiot stopped you from public streaming.

I was going to respond to your point about female gamers identifying as such by saying that perhaps it is a manner of presentation more popular on the PS4 streams, but then I realised I was starting to get my own thoughts on this twisted. The streams I have seen are often 'conversational' with a female there and then 4 out of every 5 comments being sexist dribbling from a spunk monkey. I'm knowingly using a generalisation there and it's only my perception - but maybe it's something to do with the console audience skewing younger than the PC one?

I then also thought that maybe my irritation at the term is more from it being used mainly in this context and in this context, it is 'attention seeking'. Not that there's anything inherently wrong in that. It just (genuinely) makes me sad to see that sort of manipulative discourse and it feels cheap and exploitative. I guess I then started wondering about the term itself and whether it's a part of that discourse. I'm probably fairly naive about this, (as with most things!) and I'm also aware that I've never really had that misogynist abuse from gamer communities, partially because I'm naturally fairly private and so only tend to play online with people I trust.

Anyway, thanks so much for your post. I wonder if my criticisms themselves have some latent misogyny. I tell you, it's rubbish being human. When I go, I want to come back as a dog.

 

[lighthouse777]

I am female and only use a mic online with friends
had my issues with ''kids''

not counting that I probably am old enough to be their grandmother lol
buts that's also why I joined the PMS clan
because there can be issues, online

fyi, for those who do not know who they are

Pandora's Mighty Soldiers (PMS Clan) is the world's largest multi-platform online female gaming group on Xbox, PC and PlayStation platforms. The main focus of PMS Clan extends beyond playing our best
Our Mission
Our mission is to provide a fun, competitive, and positive environment
to female gamers while promoting respect for women in matches
and tournaments.

 

[Nome]

this

You realize dudes do that too right? In games like League with long downtimes between matches, it increases viewer retention.

 

[Devolution]

I just play with a neutral name and don't talk on mic with strangers when I game. I'm just not in the mood to deal with that crap while I'm just trying to blow some shit up.

I did the clan thing but that was annoying because of play dates and rules.

 

[Madness]

Seems like a damned if you, damned if you don't scenario for women. Try and blend into the sea of a ton of male gamers and have people say women don't play games, they don't exist, I've never played Halo with a girl. If they try and differentiate themselves because it grants some legitimacy and helps others identify, get some better representation or unity, they get the "attention whore", 'tis an awesome thing m'lady, or people who say they're just guys pretending to be girls with feminine names or avatars etc. I've seen firsthand if a girl speaks on a mic, she's almost always inundated with friend requests or all of a sudden the game chat or lobby chat zeroes in on her.

Another big problem for women is that, even if they don't want to be, they become representative of their gender. A guy plays like shit online in a match, and he'll get the "dude you played like shit", if a girl plays like shit online she'll get "wow girls suck at this game".

 

[Makai]

Why am I always so out of the loop on internet bigotry? I have never ever heard this term outside of the movement to discredit it - e.g. threads like this.

 

[BananaSprinkles]

There's still many people out there that treat female gamers like a rarity.

Do you blame them?

84% of WoW players are male
96% of EVE Online players are male
96% of Dota 2 players are male
90% of LoL players are male
80% of CoD players are male

Now these may not be 100% accurate, but they certainly give a good idea.

 

[Paracelsus]

You realize dudes do that too right? In games like League with long downtimes between matches, it increases viewer retention.

He cut the right part. This is the original complete picture.

 

[Eusis]

Do you blame them?

84% of WoW players are male
96% of EVE Online players are male
96% of Dota 2 players are male
90% of LoL players are male
80% of CoD players are male

Now these may not be 100% accurate, but they certainly give a good idea.

Don't forget the dates!

Seriously, that WoW one was from when the game was basically in an infantile state, the subscription count blew up since then and more and more women came on board as I recall. Although it would have been interesting if the male:female ratio were closer to even for CoD than for WoW.

 

[Jucksalbe]

Do you blame them?

{LIST}

Now these may not be 100% accurate, but they certainly give a good idea.

The two games with 96% seem a bit extreme, but 20% of CoD players being female doesn't exactly make them a rarity.

 

[Wazzy]

Do you blame them?

84% of WoW players are male
96% of EVE Online players are male
96% of Dota 2 players are male
90% of LoL players are male
80% of CoD players are male

Now these may not be 100% accurate, but they certainly give a good idea.

Yes?

I expect to be treated like a human being not "a wild shiny female has appeared!"

Also the gaming medium has become way more popular for women so in this day and age treating it like we don't exist is silly. I also doubt those numbers are very accurate.

 

[Nome]

He cut the right part. This is the original complete picture.

Whether or not the right part is there doesn't really matter. The point is, making yourself the focus during downtime increases viewer retention. Source: a buttload of very popular streamers.

 

[Oblivion]

This whole girl gamer thing is overrated.

Guys should stop overreacting when they find out there's a girl playing a game, and girls should stop placing themselves on the girlgamer pedestal as an excuse to get attention. Do you have to lie about it? No. But you don't have to point it out at every opportunity either.
About 50% of the gamers is female, so it's not that special anymore.

In the end it's all about pressing buttons on a controller or keyboard, or jumping in front of a camera, which makes gender completely irrelevant.

I think that's an inflated statistic.

 

[SillyEskimo]

What was the ratio?

1 in 5 according to my irrefutable data.