"Just looked like a last gen game with next-gen graphics, who cares?"

KingFire said:
People like is the reason we have a slightly more refined Call of Duty game every year. But hey! Who cares about innovation?

Call of Duty is a standard FPS that is, surprisingly, well made. Is this the future of gaming that you want? Standard well-made games in standard genres?
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i want a future that contains everything. But what i don't want is developers to have to feel pressured into trying to innovate, just to say they've innovated and attempted 'next-gen gameplay'. I'd say that would be counterproductive to quality gaming.

K' Dash said:
Amir0x, I hate you, but I agree with you :p
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You HATE me? Hate...is... such a strong word :(
 
Amir0x said:
I agree with this in principle: i made a similar point about people's expectations about visuals.

But the difference here is that I'm not sure anybody has actually showed a single example of 'revolutionary' gameplay yet for any of the next-gen platforms, even Wii U. My deeper question is: what ARE people expecting? What do they think would be next-gen gameplay? For example, let's just say somebody wanted to make a good racing game. How would you go about making that so innovative that you'd call it 'next-gen gameplay'?

Now it's not your job to come up with these ideas, I know. But I'm trying to get an understanding of what people's expectations are, because if it's just some vague nebulous idea that something should be different... even when nothing is... then maybe we can internally re-evaluate those expectations in a discussion like this?
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Hello hello hello how low
Here we are now entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now entertain us
a mullato
an albino
a denial
 
People say those things because they are mostly true. Same gameplay plus new paint job. For most people that's enough (see Infamous: Second Son) and for others its a stick to beat it with (see: Super Mario 3D world - looks like uprezzed 3DS game).

Some games offer genuinely new ways to experience the game (Nintendoland's asymmetric games or ZombiU's realtime inventory to heighten suspense and terror). These games got a bad rep for baically being on the Wii U and not pushing the graphical envelope. Most publishers are not going to bother experimenting when they know that enough people will equate better graphics with better gameplay.
 
EvB said:
Ultimately this time around, the technology hasn't opened any doors to do things that simply weren't possible before, unlike previous generations.
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But how many games from last gen were really new? Gears is often brought up as one of the first real "next-gen" experiences from that gen, but even CliffyB mentioned that the gameplay was pulled from Resident Evil 4 and kill.switch. And that's literally what it was. They combined the two together and that's literally what the gameplay in that series is built around. There may have been a handful of games that were genuinely new experiences from last gen. The last time that innovation and something new was really running wild in the industry was during the PSone/N64/Saturn days. After that we've mostly just seen games refine what happened during that period. And here and there you saw some new experiences.
 
Sephiroth_GR_ said:
Then you should had included Gears of War instead, regarding " 'standard' gameplay elements of its respective genre" if you are talking about tps in general

Uncharted is high quality product among gaming communities for it's "Wow" cinematic moments.Basically an excellent cinematic adventure game, but as a tps..well..
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lol This made me laugh. Gears of War didn't standardize shit. I swear it's like kids never played Kill.switch or Winback.
 
Knack looks like a last gen game with last-gen graphics doe.
Wynnebeck said:
lol This made me laugh. Gears of War didn't standardize shit. I swear it's like kids never played Kill.switch or Winback.
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Well yeah not a lot people played killswitch or winback. The TPS's of the last gen where influenced by gears.
 
For example, Uncharted is a 'standard TPS' with some platforming elements. The second game is widely regarded on neoGAF and among other gaming communities
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In part, because Uncharted--along with Gears and the early-in-the-gen Tom Clancy TPSes and the overall hybridization of the open world genre and the FPS--came to define people's expectations for a TPS.

For any given category, some things can be archetypal in a good way, the standard-bearers, while other things are seen as derivative or formulaic. Like, Romeo and Juliet is just another lame star-crossed lovers tale... except that it happens to be well done and also happens to have defined much of what we now view as cliché about that genre.
 
Gamers these days are just impossible to please. We are spoiled with great games and there is always someone who will find something to complain about no matter how great the game.
 
Sephiroth_GR_ said:
Uncharted is a bad example imo.Terrible third person shooter with even more terrible enemy AI

I think innovation will come from things like advanced AI and more open world-designed games.
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Uncharted 1? Sure. 2 and 3? Couldn't disagree with you more. Some of the most satisfying mechanics in third person shooting today.
 
Yeah I agree, I don't understand why every game seems to be expected to redefine the genre it occupies. Why can't I just enjoy a solid shooter for a slickly produced story and presentation? I mean, certain genres can only go so far. Racing games will always be about driving cars around tracks and passing other cars. First person shooters really haven't changed much in a long time at their most basic level.
 
I expect more from new IP. If you're starting from a clean slate and all you come up with is derivative gameplay that looks indistinguishable from other games in the genre then you deserve some flak.
 
Amir0x said:
As I said in the OP, i have deep problems with the Uncharted series. I simply chose a game that was widely regarded as a high quality product among gaming communities, and that had what one could call 'standard' gameplay elements of its respective genre.
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Why should anyone care about what "gaming communities" think? I think Bioshock Infinite is trash and having everyone else thinking it is the best game ever won't change that. So why can't I express that?

I want refinement yes, but more importantly I want innovation to show me gameplay I could never have imagined, not just a fancy reskinned version of a game I already own. When I got Gears of War 1 the graphics were incredible yes, but the gameplay was something I had never experienced before. Then the online play was completely different to Halo which I played on the OG Xbox. Dark Souls 2 is way more polished and refined than Demon's Souls but I do not think it is a better game by any means. Just more of the same may be all right for some people, but I want more than that.
 
Stumpokapow said:
In part, because Uncharted--along with Gears and the early-in-the-gen Tom Clancy TPSes and the overall hybridization of the open world genre and the FPS--came to define people's expectations for a TPS.

For any given category, some things can be archetypal in a good way, the standard-bearers, while other things are seen as derivative or formulaic. Like, Romeo and Juliet is just another lame star-crossed lovers tale... except that it happens to be well done and also happens to have defined much of what we now view as cliché about that genre.
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I agree, but is an iterative concept which happens to be executed extremely well just an inherent negative for these folk? Is this the type of industry where once a game in a genre comes out and does well and is widely praised, nobody else in the industry can afterwards follow in those gameplay footprints with simple refinements (as opposed to larger gameplay overhauls) and still be considered equally as good (or better)?
 
MightyHedgehog said:
Extended generation whose output gave us two AAA cover-based shooters with three or four games apiece. Sim racers with realistic graphics and a focus on tiny details...also lots of sequels. It's called genre fatigue and these 'new' next-gen/current-gen games, as nice as they look, constantly remind us of the many times we've already experienced them. People want to do new things in a new generation, not just see the old activities with better presentation.
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It's really as simple as this.
 
I'm glad I'm easily entertained and don't challenge things to entertain me. That might sound like a stupid thing to say, but I can assure you that I go through my day to day life in a better mood than some of these people that seem to hate EVERYTHING for one reason or another.

I can't tell you how many times I would've been happy with "more of the same" for a sequel to a game I loved only to have it mucked up with "let's take it to the next level" and the magic getting screwed up. Prettier and newer is often times all I'm hoping for. I don't want or need everything redefined because there's a good chance it'll get screwed up in the process.

That's not to say I never want gaming to progress any further, but if someone makes a gorgeous game with new content that plays like a game I loved from last gen... they're getting my money, I'm going to have fun, and haters gonna hate...
 
I think people just miss the Mario 64 feeling and probably haven't gotten it in a while.

The well of truly new things is drying up quick. There's no revolution anymore. Only evolution and iteration. Nothing wrong with that, but seems like people are wishing it didn't have to be that way.
 
Moral Panic said:
Why should anyone care about what "gaming communities" think? I think Bioshock Infinite is trash and having everyone else thinking it is the best game ever won't change that. So why can't I express that?
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That wasn't the point of my comment, and I certainly would never say you can't express it. As I said, I disagree with the general consensus on UC as well. No matter what example I choose, there's going to be some group who didn't like it. I'm choosing a game that is widely popular because it casts the widest net of potential people who can relate to the point, not because I'm trying to stifle your opinion.
 
The_Almighty_Swan said:
Gamers these days are just impossible to please. We are spoiled with great games and there is always someone who will find something to complain about no matter how great the game.
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Because not everybody likes the same things, so a great game for you might not be a great game for someone else. And the games you don't like or think are bad are liked by other people. Yes, including that terrible one that's really awful and shit tier. Different people value different things. Like, if you go to the worst movie you can think of, it probably doesn't have a 0% on Rotten Tomatoes, because one or two reviewers actually liked it. And if you go to your favourite movie, or the greatest movie ever made... some people probably didn't like it. It's OK.

And it's not like the same amount of people complain about everything. The way we form a consensus about things is the relative strength and number of voices on each side. When someone says it's commonly accepted that Watchmen is a great graphic novel, or that The West Wing was a great TV series, or that the Beatles were a great band, it's not because literally every single person on earth accepts those things, it's because many do and over time that's emerged as a sort of consensus. It's OK if you're a part of the consensus. It's also OK if you're not.

It surprises me that people continuously express incredulity about how "there's a hater for everything", as though there are Games Sent Down From Heaven On A Cloud Of Rainbows, Praise Be To Reagan or whatever.

Amir0x said:
I agree, but is an iterative concept which happens to be executed extremely well just an inherent negative for these folk?
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The reaction to the example you've chosen, thusfar, appears to be that it's not particularly iterative, and it's not particularly well executed. That's the substance of the criticism you've identified. If you agree or disagree, whatever, but that's what people are saying. No one is saying "This looks amazing but I hate it because it's not new enough", they're saying "This doesn't look amazing in part because it's not new enough." Surely you can recognize that some games are iterative and are praised for it, others are revolutionary and praised for it, others are avant-garde messes that are criticized for it, and others are derivative and criticized for it. There's no particular trend of people demanding new; quite the opposite, in fact, people's purchase and award tastes are remarkably narrow and iterative and mostly the gaming community, including GAF's, aggregate reaction to something is to reward familiar but improved ideas.
 
It isn't an issue, someone who assesses the game should assess it from all points including it's graphics. Personally I do not really have an huge issue with this cause when I play games I play them to have fun/relax even if I'm going to play it hardcore. It also isn't a big deal to me cause most games I play tend to be old games anyway.

But one thing does bother me is the mentality that 2D games are not as good as 3D games because of the graphics. Personally the way I see it, when a game accomplishes what it tries to accomplish visually on every level, no matter how much detail it has or not, it has good graphics. Like obviously you play Mario and the game is full of simple colors and a lot of people associate that with being bad graphics because it isn't realistic looking. I feel this mentality is dated and dumb tbh and doesn't really focus on the entire goal of having graphics in the first place: To portray what you're playing as and playing in on screen. If a game accomplishes this to a tee, whether it's 2D or 3D, cartoony or realistic, it's done a good job as far as I'm concerned.
 
MightyHedgehog said:
Extended generation whose output gave us two AAA cover-based shooters with three or four games apiece. Sim racers with realistic graphics and a focus on tiny details...also lots of sequels. It's called genre fatigue and these 'new' next-gen/current-gen games, as nice as they look, constantly remind us of the many times we've already experienced them. People want to do new things in a new generation, not just see the old activities with better presentation.
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If this is how people think, I'm even more glad I gave up on lastgen around 2010 haha.
 
I honestly couldn't care less if the next 5 years are just bigger and better looking versions of the games i've been playing for the last 20 years.

Games change slowly, systems will be refined and improved on slowly , anyone who thought gen 8 was going to usher in a wave of new genres and sweeping changes to game play mechanics were setting themselves up for disappointment from the start.
 
Great post. The negativity from game enthusiast is so toxic these days that I often avoid forums & comment sections altogether. It's gross! We live in a time when videogames are better than ever, yet people find a way to bitch & moan about the most trivial things. "The Batman trailer has jaggies." GTFO!
 
The parts that have impressed me the most of the game are its visual design and its cutscenes. The gameplay videos have done absolutely nothing to interest me. That says something. I'm not against a new shooter. But there's nothing there beyond the same boring-ass cover mechanics.

Last gen, current gen, I don't care. It doesn't look exciting as a game.
 
I don't think that a next-gen game necessarily needs next-gen gameplay

But is it wrong to expect more? Especially since in the case of The Order 1886 you have a great setting and interesting art design? They made the decision to show off the game on a lagging Twitch stream for like 2 minutes - does the game not deserve better? Why is it so unreasonable to be disappointed with that?

Especially since what they've shown didn't look impressive gameplay-wise if you've played the Gears trilogy and basically every other TPS last generation. Is the game still interesting to me? Of course it is. But they could have presented their game much better today, sorry man
 
Amir0x said:
i want a future that contains everything. But what i don't want is developers to have to feel pressured into trying to innovate, just to say they've innovated and attempted 'next-gen gameplay'. I'd say that would be counterproductive to quality gaming.



You HATE me? Hate...is... such a strong word :(
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Those developers are always, and I mean always, under pressure. Whether that is pressure from the gaming community to innovate, pressure from the publishers to make standard games that sell well, or even pressure from the public to be careful and not use elements that might look misogynistic or racist.

Let the developers and the QA personnel worry about quality.
 
Nice Op, there are different things to say in that case.

_I think the innovation cult is something particular to the videogame industry, and it's kinda absurd compared to other forms of art. Cause we don't ask a "genre" movie to reinvent the genre, even if it's nice that some does after a time. But nobody judges a movie or a song by thinking "so what new things does it bring ??". cause well even a classical horror movie will bring its tone, story, aesthetic.

And in the order case, it's clearly bringing a tone, a pace, a setting, an aesthetic, and probably a pretty rich story for a game of that genre. BUT people act like a videogame is a material product, like if it was a software or a camera, and they consider it should be an evolution compared to other games, especially at the beginning of a gen.

Now, i'd temper my own words by saying in that case.. the genre in itself is kinda boring, to people, i guess, cause it's not even like Uncharted, a dynamic tps with climbing and amazing action scenes. They show something really slow and limited in what you do, so i can understand why people are not super excited.

Also i'll re-say it again, there is a problem with Sony first parties. They are kinda blind and self driven. KIll Zone, Infamous, Drive Club, Knack, The order all lacks some ambition in their gameplay, and all have a pretty arrogant way of being tech showcase, not even that efficient in all their aspects. It's like those teams are more driven by the tech challenge (they all have intensive reflexion/light techs, even Knack has the 3000 piece character thing) and are all into the big cinematic game style, while XBO exclusives have a more retro, simple fun kind of approach.

It's like people at Sony takes videogames a little too seriously sometimes and can be distant from gamers pleasures. I mean everything is relative, it's not like they are horrible games.
 
Amir0x said:
My deeper question is: what ARE people expecting? What do they think would be next-gen gameplay?
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We have played allot of first and third person shooters, racing games, Big open world games like Skyrim / souls games.

How many of them let you play with a friend without the tacked on multiplayer...? And no, don't want an MMO, just a big world with at least 1 friend

I agree with you that there is no next gen gameplay other than prettier graphics and bigger worlds...I kind of expect that...but was hoping for options for an online friend to join some of these games.
 
KingFire said:
Those developers are always, and I mean always, under pressure. Whether that is pressure from the gaming community to innovate, pressure from the publishers to make standard games that sell well, or even pressure from the public to be careful and not use elements that might look misogynistic or racist.

Let the developers and the QA personnel worry about quality.
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So let's not add to the pressure cooker mix ;P
 
Wynnebeck said:
Because. Fanboys.
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basically. It's the 'platform-exclusivity effect' and what it does to peeps' perspective. I mean for pretty much the entirety of Insomniac's existence while developing for PS-platforms exclusively, they were viewed as 'mediocre' and now that they are developing a game exclusively for an X-console... 'system seller' is bandied about. My, how people's perspectives have hanged. LOL
 
Amir0x said:
But the difference here is that I'm not sure anybody has actually showed a single example of 'revolutionary' gameplay yet for any of the next-gen platforms, even Wii U. My deeper question is: what ARE people expecting? What do they think would be next-gen gameplay? For example, let's just say somebody wanted to make a good racing game. How would you go about making that so innovative that you'd call it 'next-gen gameplay'?
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Well that's the rub, because its never clearly defined, but that doesn't matter when you're creating and sustaining hype, whether from marketing teams or from fans devouring every morsel of a new series that seems to hold promise and filling in the silence with their own active imaginations.

I think the only way to put it reasonably is to say that there is a real thirst out there for games that allow for interactivity that would either be impossible in previous generations, or could only now do the concept justice because of that new hardware or new capability set. And its the flagship exclusives carry that torch and those expectations.

The only way around this would have been to sell next-gen as a marginal improvement to graphics horsepower. But who in the world is going to do that?

Comet said:
Way too early to make this claim
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Yep. We'll see it at some point.
 
People lost their shit over yet another CoD not long ago. It all really comes down to marketing, and boy have Sony been beyond fucking terrible when it comes to showing their games. First, they show a minute of Galahad running throw a corridor. Now they show 30 seconds of him taking cover and shooting stuff. Can't really blame anyone for thinking The Order looks boring.
 
"Last-gen gameplay" is just an easy term to refer to something uninspired right now. The Order is uninspired enough to take setpieces wholesale from almost every game of last gen while seeming to add almost nothing on those sequences in twists or improvements.

Especially when the sequences they've taken so far have been the ones with almost no dynamic events or much going on and are therefore pretty uninteresting even without novelty.
 
i just feel like splinter cell blacklist spoiled me on what a 3rd person shooter can do. multiple approaches, quick swift badass melee takedowns without losing moment, or just plain sneaky around, or assorted gadgets.

There are problems if you try to pure stealth, but everything else is pretty dope for a AAA game.
 
NinjamicWZ said:
Mario World was just Mario 3 with next gen graphics :( OH NO!

the only next gen game ever was Mario 64, all other games were and are terrible
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I know (hope?) you're joking, but I see people mention old games like Mario 64 whenever "next gen gameplay" arguments come up.

Look at how young 3d gaming was when that game came out. Many genres and gameplay mechanics were being created during that time period. You didn't have to go out of your way to do that. Fast forward to 2014. Think about how hard it would be to ditch proven mechanics and make something completely new that works as well as the old mechanics.

I'm looking at the 3 games that people are/were excited for. Titanfall, Sunset Overdrive, and Driveclub don't have "next gen gameplay". They're using existing mechanics that worked and made it look fun to play.
 
There are people who go into games wanting an original experience. Watch_Dogs is a good example. It looked original and interesting at first, and then the dude whipped out a gun and suddenly it's a third-person shooter. I mean, I'm sure it's a solid game, but it doesn't really interest me so much because anything that's original about it takes a backseat to gameplay I can get anywhere else -- gameplay that might even be better somewhere else. Why would I play The Order when I could play another third-person shooter with better gameplay? Yeah, it might be slightly different, but at its core there's a good chance I'll be spending ten hours doing the same shit I did in Uncharted or Gears of War.

Let's look, instead, at a game like Katamari Damacy: Where else am I going to get a game like that? Nowhere. It's an original experience and unlike Lords of Shadow and God of War and Dante's Inferno, I can't mix-and-match the Katmari series with some other game series and get mostly the same gameplay experience.

As for the whole generation gap thing, yeah, that part's silly. As if games will change just because they can look nicer now, lol, no.
 
MightyHedgehog said:
We've been playing fewer of the same specific takes on genres more often. It's easy enough to go back to every previous generation and look at all of the different takes on roughly similar gametypes and see how they've gotten closer and closer together, only choosing to really amplify the visuals and 'immersive' or cinematic nature of their presentation. Things are becoming more narrow at the top end and those games are precisely the ones that are being heavily promoted in front of and for these new consoles. The more novel twists on familiar games and more greatly expanded evolutions of them are still in the distance, many having been delayed to next year or simply never having had a solid release period to look forward to. This year, apart from to-be-announced games (probably at E3), is looking very last gen with a new coat of paint and very thin, on top of that.
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This is nonsense people play what they want to play every gen it's the same thing .
If you want something new play a different genres .
 
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