Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach

To the "Joke character" pile, we could also add Luigi, who, since Melee, has been portrayed as a weird, effeminate, offbeat loser, along with Snake, who, as a Hideo Kojima creation, is probably part of some meta joke on the players, along with this shit:

YwFCVhA.jpg
 
Someone found Roy, Mewtwo, Dr. Mario and Pichu fun.

But 3 of those 4 characters were actual clones. Boring or not, those characters had nothing truly unique to them. And Mewtwo was cut because of Sonic - he was planned to be in Brawl until the very last minute.

Every fighting game franchise has cuts. There is probably not a single fighting game franchise that has 3 or more entries that didn't at least cut one character. It's natural. The reality is there can only be so many characters, and adding old ones due to obligation stymies the possibilities of the new roster. Obviously a huge appeal of Smash is the Nintendo aesthetic, and people want to see as many Nintendo properties represented as possible, or new characters from already represented series. FALCO MUST DIE SO RIDLEY MAY LIVE.

But Nintendo's properties consist of more than just Mario and Zelda and Metroid. That's the whole point of the game - to show other stuff from Nintendo's past and present. Of course there's gonna be cuts in some shape or form, but there's a few significant differences between Smash and other fighting games.

For one, hardly any fighting game series is as popular as the Smash Bros. series. The only better-selling franchise of fighting games - as far as I recall at least - is Street Fighter, a series that is a decade older than Smash, has significantly more installments (between the different versions in particular - the SF4 franchise is bigger than Smash currently is), and founded the fighting game genre as we know it.
Edit: Just looked up, apparently Mortal Kombat and Tekken also sold more than Smash, but hey, those series are also older than Smash. Point still stands - Smash is really damn popular.

Second, as you say it, it's Nintendo franchises/characters. There's a lot of people who like those characters, and I'd argue a lot more people are fans of Falco, R.O.B. or the Ice Climbers than there are fans of Rose, Yun or Dudley.

It's just one criteria in an ever-changing list. R.O.B. and G&W are in Smash Bros, not only because of their importance in Nintendo's history, but also because they bring something new to the table that's never been done before, and the same could be said of any of the newcomers this time around. Luigi's no different. He has his own persona outside of being Mario's brother.

I never was arguing Luigi's importance to Nintendo, or his importance to his series, or having his own persona. You are completely missing my point. My point is that people cry for cutting Wolf because he is a clone, but he shares less moves with Fox than Luigi does with Mario, yet nobody cries for Luigi getting cut due to being a clone.
As a matter of fact, the term "luigified clone" has been coined, while Luigi remains one of the characters closest to his source material.
 
Whoever sakurai cuts will have been cut for a reason. I trust his decision making. He'll do what's best for smash bros.

That reason will likely not be 'to add someone else's favorite character.'
 
To the "Joke character" pile, we could also add Luigi, who, since Melee, has been portrayed as a weird, effeminate, offbeat loser, along with Snake, who, as a Hideo Kojima creation, is probably part of some meta joke on the players, along with this shit:

YwFCVhA.jpg

It won't be missed :D
 
Team Cuts

Pokemon Trainer was a really unique character, but its obvious they want to go away from transformation characters. A buffed Charizard should be good heavy fighter. I do wish they replaced Lucario with Mewtwo, though M2 may still appear.

If it was up to me and I could create the roster from scratch, I would cut these characters:

ROB
Falco/Wolf (survivor has vastly changed move set)
Toon Link
Lucario
Lucas
Ike

I want characters that play in creative ways like Olimar and Little Mac, not clones. I know cutting is not a popular opinion, but I feel that the obligation to add past fighters would limit the potential.

I wonder how it would feel like if I fork your balls
 
To the "Joke character" pile, we could also add Luigi, who, since Melee, has been portrayed as a weird, effeminate, offbeat loser, along with Snake, who, as a Hideo Kojima creation, is probably part of some meta joke on the players, along with this shit:

YwFCVhA.jpg

Dumb thought, wondering what it'd be like if Ganondorf inherited some of Snake's melee moves (albeit slowed down) just to distance himself further from Captain Falcon.
 
Gotta love how snake's up tilt is stronger, faster, and had better range than many others uncharged up smashes. Such balance.
 
His F-Tilt's first or so hit (the knee jam) also has a really ginormous hitbox. There's been some speculation that originally, his F-Tilt wasn't supposed to be with the knee but a regular forward kick, but they forgot to make the hitbox smaller.
Given the many issues Brawl has, I would not be surprised if that was true - as a matter of fact, I remember reading in a report from the Smash Lab over on SWF that there was some coding errors on Ganondorf's moveset, his aerials in particular. I think they were supposed to be possible to be cancelled, but the errors didn't allow them to be cancelled, if I remember correctly.
 
His F-Tilt's first or so hit (the knee jam) also has a really ginormous hitbox. There's been some speculation that originally, his F-Tilt wasn't supposed to be with the knee but a regular forward kick, but they forgot to make the hitbox smaller.
Given the many issues Brawl has, I would not be surprised if that was true - as a matter of fact, I remember reading in a report from the Smash Lab over on SWF that there was some coding errors on Ganondorf's moveset, his aerials in particular. I think they were supposed to be possible to be cancelled, but the errors didn't allow them to be cancelled, if I remember correctly.

I blame sonic for all this nonsense :p Hopefully smash 4 is much better. That, and these things can also be patched. Really hope the 3DS acts as a 'beta test' for the Wii U one. :)

Might even be the reason they're releasing SO far apart (at least 3 months, if not longer)
 
I blame sonic for all this nonsense :p Hopefully smash 4 is much better. That, and these things can also be patched. Really hope the 3DS acts as a 'beta test' for the Wii U one. :)

Not sure if we could blame sonic for everything...certainly doesn't explain how many from the melee roster somehow got worse XD.
 
Pit's Dash Attack has been changed slightly

Dash Attack (slowed down to 1/3 speed during the attack)
i1CfyAwi6ycAa.gif

In Brawl, the dash attack hit to the bottom-left/bottom-right.

In Smash 4, he just seems to be attacking just directly to the right/left. It kinda looks like it has more range as well now. Some characters may be able to crouch and dodge it.
I blame sonic for all this nonsense :p Hopefully smash 4 is much better. That, and these things can also be patched. Really hope the 3DS acts as a 'beta test' for the Wii U one. :)
I blame Subspace Emissary for everything. Screw that thing.
 
He is the legendary Solid Snake. It makes sense that he is overly powerful. You can't flip off missiles if you have a small hit box.
 
Your favorite character is shit!

SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!

And your favorite character should be cut!

CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!

Didn't Sakurai himself said characters would be cut? At this point it seems like that'll only be possibly Snake due to legal reasons and Squirtle/Ivysaur due to the transformation mechanic being removed.

Also for added fun, yes veterans take less time to develop compared to newcomers, but any vets you decide to cut mean there is more time to fine tune the vets and create new comers ;)

Still at this point unless we get a random Mewtwo esque cut due to time or Ice Climbers due to frame rate issues I really don't expect anyone to be gone besides for Snake/Squirtle/Ivysaur, would be glad to have all 3 back
 
Your favorite character is shit!

SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!

And your favorite character should be cut!

CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!

Didn't Sakurai himself said characters would be cut? At this point it seems like that'll only be possibly Snake due to legal reasons and Squirtle/Ivysaur due to the transformation mechanic being removed.

Also for added fun, yes veterans take less time to develop compared to newcomers, but any vets you decide to cut mean there is more time to fine tune the vets and create new comers ;)

Still at this point unless we get a random Mewtwo esque cut due to time or Ice Climbers due to frame rate issues I really don't expect anyone to be gone besides for Snake/Squirtle/Ivysaur, would be glad to have all 3 back

Sakurai said that the characters would be cut when they ran out of time to adding the character to the games. I can imagine that there are few situations that would force Sakurai to cut characters early such as pokemon company had any saying on matters and copyright rejection like Konami's Snake.
 
Things sakurai could do to characters that would make less than 5% of smash players upset:
  • Cut ganondorf's current movset. Make it something new.
I wouldn't be so sure about that one. Although Ganondorf's moveset makes no sense for his character, I've come to love it for what it is, and I would only accept Ganondorf with a new moveset if his old moveset was preserved in another character like Black Shadow.
 
If it was up to me and I could create the roster from scratch, I would cut these characters:

ROB
Falco/Wolf (survivor has vastly changed move set)
Toon Link
Lucario
Lucas
Ike

I want characters that play in creative ways like Olimar and Little Mac, not clones. I know cutting is not a popular opinion, but I feel that the obligation to add past fighters would limit the potential.
what @ bolded
 
His F-Tilt's first or so hit (the knee jam) also has a really ginormous hitbox. There's been some speculation that originally, his F-Tilt wasn't supposed to be with the knee but a regular forward kick, but they forgot to make the hitbox smaller.
Given the many issues Brawl has, I would not be surprised if that was true - as a matter of fact, I remember reading in a report from the Smash Lab over on SWF that there was some coding errors on Ganondorf's moveset, his aerials in particular. I think they were supposed to be possible to be cancelled, but the errors didn't allow them to be cancelled, if I remember correctly.

Basically, every move in the game has a window in which you can finish the animation completely before landing. Ganondorf's Forward Air (not sure if it's any other aerial for him but I don't think so, only Fair has this issue) has this window placed in the wrong spot and thus, he can't ever finish Fair before landing. Even if you double jump Fair, Ganondorf will always suffer the huge ass landing lag of that move. Actually, Ganondorf has two moves that finish before landing and one of which is Down Air. If you short hop and C-Stick your Dair fast enough, you can land with no lag at all for it. But it requires specific timing -- still, the fact he can do a SH Dair with no landing lag is pretty nice... too bad even with that he still suckssssss.

Same thing for Donkey Kong's Fair, if I recall (meaning he can't ever land without lag for the move). There might be some other moves like that but it's definitely not something that's done purposefully based on how every other character in the game, including Bowser, can finish their moves before they land and avoid all landing lag of that aerial.

People tend to simply call it "autocancel" for whatever reason but I honestly feel that's a misnomer -- it only has the "cancel" name in it because it's trying to be some form of L-Canceling when... it's not. At all. The "auto" part is trying to say that it requires no input... which I don't think is true because you have to consciously input a full jump or whatever to get no landing lag for the aerial. Unfortunately, I dunno what you could call it to refer to it with just a single phrase or word so I guess we'll have to live with "autocancel" (as dumb as it is).

Speaking of which, there were a lot of dumb names for "techniques" in Brawl. Probably the only good ones are RAR, DACUS, and Glide Toss. That's literally it. Everything else is awful. B Reversal/Wavebouncing are both really dumb, especially because people confuse the two of those terms all the fucking time (even in 2014!) when they pretty much are the same thing. Thankfully, I think the latter term (wavebouncing) is slowly disappearing from people's vocab as I haven't heard it from a commentator in... months -- let alone anyone in any stream chat lol.
 
You know, with the absence of Ice Climbers, I've begun to wonder if maybe they're getting an aesthetic overhaul.

Maybe they're getting their own Ike treatment. I wouldn't mind that, as they remind me of those precious moments figures.
 
I never was arguing Luigi's importance to Nintendo, or his importance to his series, or having his own persona. You are completely missing my point. My point is that people cry for cutting Wolf because he is a clone, but he shares less moves with Fox than Luigi does with Mario, yet nobody cries for Luigi getting cut due to being a clone.
As a matter of fact, the term "luigified clone" has been coined, while Luigi remains one of the characters closest to his source material.

You're losing me slightly. So you're saying that being a clone is not a justifiable excuse for being cut from the roster? Then what makes the Melee --> Brawl cuts justifiable? Dr. Mario was a clone, Roy was a clone. Luigi maybe a semi-clone, but I'm saying there are other reasons why he's in, and fighters like Dr. Mario aren't. If Wolf gets the axe, the fact that he was a semi-clone is not the only reason why he was left out. Vice versa for if Falco comes back. It's not as if Sakurai cut them for no reason.

You know, with the absence of Ice Climbers, I've begun to wonder if maybe they're getting an aesthetic overhaul.

Maybe they're getting their own Ike treatment. I wouldn't mind that, as they remind me of those precious moments figures.

It's possible, but I doubt there's much there to change. Word is they haven't gotten confirmed yet because Sakurai and Co. have had difficulties getting their two-character style to work on the 3DS. I don't know if Rosalina's Luma-based style is any more different from the Ice Climbers.

Source
 
Wolf shares one fucking Final Smash with Fox. One. It's the one move they have that is the fucking same. It's like Charizard and Bowser having the same Neutral Special. You people don't know what being a clone means.
 
Sakurai said that the characters would be cut when they ran out of time to adding the character to the games. I can imagine that there are few situations that would force Sakurai to cut characters early such as pokemon company had any saying on matters and copyright rejection like Konami's Snake.

As others have said between Namco Bandai and no SSE I can't imagine anyone being cut for time unless Sakurai deems them super low priority for w/e reason. I do wonder if Squirtle/Ivysaur could potentially be replaced ala Young Link -> Toon Link with other fully evolved versions of starter pokemon even if its just Blastoise and Venusaur. Could be a way to make all 6 gens playable, this might be problematic if they did decide to bring back Mewtwo

Gen 1: Charizard, Pikachu, Jiggly, maybe Mewtwo

Gen 2: Meganium/Feraligator

Gen 3: Blaziken (if any type was to get two pokemon it'd be fire with Blaziken), Sceptile, Swampert

Gen 4: Lucario

Gen 5: ???? (Can't really see Surperior or Samurott being playable, no idea besides Zoroark who could be playable)

Gen 6: Geninja

I dunno just out loud thinking Pokemon will probably just be Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Charizard, Greninja, maybe Squirtle/Ivysaur or a replacement, and either returning Mewtwo of surprise newcomer Blaziken

While 7-8 may seem like a lot Brawl did have 6 out of 39 be pokemon I can see if the roster is 45+ pokemon getting 7-8

Cut everyone except Kirby

Everything is Kirby Fighters!

You know, with the absence of Ice Climbers, I've begun to wonder if maybe they're getting an aesthetic overhaul.

Maybe they're getting their own Ike treatment. I wouldn't mind that, as they remind me of those precious moments figures.

Ice Climbers got cut like Knuckles and Ike, will be very upset when Buff Climbers don't show up :(
 
I wouldn't be so sure about that one. Although Ganondorf's moveset makes no sense for his character, I've come to love it for what it is, and I would only accept Ganondorf with a new moveset if his old moveset was preserved in another character like Black Shadow.

He's still basically a stronger captain falcon with different normals. While I don't want any movesets cut, ganondorf deserves better than that.

You know, with the absence of Ice Climbers, I've begun to wonder if maybe they're getting an aesthetic overhaul.

Maybe they're getting their own Ike treatment. I wouldn't mind that, as they remind me of those precious moments figures.

Yeah, very worried about my ice climbies! I'm hoping they're just unlockable or are getting visual overhauls akin to ike/yoshi.

Wolf shares one fucking Final Smash with Fox. One. It's the one move they have that is the fucking same. It's like Charizard and Bowser having the same NeutralSpecial. You people don't know what being a clone means.

I agree. Their moves appear similar AESTHETICALLY, but not mechanically. They have moves that LOOK similar, but don't behave or act similar. You also use their moves for different situations.
They both have blasters, they both have side B 'dash' moves, they both have up B "rocket" moves, they both have down B 'Reflection" moves, but that's where the similarities end. The way you use each one, what they do, and how they behave are entirely different.

If they LOOKED different, if they werent from the SAME FRANCHISE, no one would accuse them of being a clone.
Pit's neutral B is a 'gun'. Pit's side B is a 'dash'. Pit's new UP B is a 'rocket' move. Pit's down B is a 2-sided reflector. How come no one is calling pit a 'FOX CLONE'? Because they look different?
 
Wolf shares one fucking Final Smash with Fox. One. It's the one move they have that is the fucking same. It's like Charizard and Bowser having the same NeutralSpecial. You people don't know what being a clone means.

And blaster. And side dash. And Fire Fox/Wolf. And reflector. Come on now. Are you telling me Wolf and Fox are completely different? They share a lot of the same basic attributes. Wolf isn't a N64 Luigiesque clone, but it's not like he's as different from Fox as Sonic is to Link.
 
And blaster. And side dash. And Fire Fox/Wolf. And reflector. Come on now. Are you telling me Wolf and Fox are completely different? They share a lot of the same basic attributes. Wolf isn't a N64 Luigiesque clone, but it's not like he's as different from Fox as Sonic is to Link.

See my post above. Pit has the same 'B' moves as fox now. Is he a 'FOX CLONE'?

If you kept wolf THE EXACT SAME, but changed the way his moves looked (replace his blaster with a bow, replace his rocket with wings), is he still a fox clone?
 
To the "Joke character" pile, we could also add Luigi, who, since Melee, has been portrayed as a weird, effeminate, offbeat loser, along with Snake, who, as a Hideo Kojima creation, is probably part of some meta joke on the players, along with this shit:

YwFCVhA.jpg

I wonder why Snake never used this amazing ability on MGS1 or 4. Could've stealth kicked guys from yards away.
 
And blaster.
Marth and Link have a sword.
And side dash.
Wolf goes diagonally, Falco and Fox's are completely horizontal. Not to mention Wolf doesn't leave any after images and has start-up lag. They don't look anything alike.
And Fire Fox/Wolf.
Wolf doesn't catch up flames and needs almost no wind-up.
And reflector.
I'll give you that one even if they have a different aesthetic altogether.
Come on now. Are you telling me Wolf and Fox are completely different? They share a lot of the same basic attributes. Wolf isn't a N64 Luigiesque clone, but it's not like he's as different from Fox as Sonic is to Link.
They have entirely different normals; they play nothing alike. This is not a case like Falco and Fox in Melee where the only differences are mechanical, either: they share no animations whatsoever.
 
Wolf is a clone in the sense he's clearly a heavily edited version of Fox, yes they play differently but the basic ground work is the same. Yes Sakurai as a whole did a great job of making the clones feel similar but different, that is what a good clone should be and I'm totally okay with roster padding using like x but y clone characters.
 
Wolf is a clone in the sense he's clearly a heavily edited version of Fox, yes they play differently but the basic ground work is the same. Yes Sakurai as a whole did a great job of making the clones feel similar but different, that is what a good clone should be and I'm totally okay with roster padding using like x but y clone characters.

Like Palutena/Medusa and Cap Falcon/Ganondorf/Hades?
 
We need a Pokemon Trainer character who's attacks summon different Pokemon. Think Zelda's Phantom attack, but with Pokemon doing different things. Throw in some uniqueness like Side B breaks out the bike, etc., and you have a cool character that isn't just one new Pokemon.

His Final Smash could be all kinds of beams from different Pokemon, similar to Brawl and Mega Man's Final Smash.
 
Greninja doesn't have a Mega evolution either. Really, if they want to avoid using too many resources for them, they could even reuse part of their animations from the Triple Finisher from Brawl and use those blasts as their solo Final Smashes.



Mewtwo actually did have his movie voice in Melee for the Japanese track. It seems like they were lazy, or maybe the VA cost too much, and so they didn't dub him for the English track.

Anyway, why would you want to remove them? They're both very unique characters. Ivysaur being the only one that isn't two legged even.
Mewtwo's first movie voice actor, Phillip Barlett, died before Melee voice recording, so they had to cast someone else.
 
I don't understand cuts when the Wii U and 3DS can give updates and DLC. Let's say Meta Knight didn't make it in time, can't they just work on him and add him as an update?
 
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