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[CountAntonius]

Sorry for contributing on derailing this thread. What I believe about this incident has been said here many times by other, but I want to make myself clear:

What did guy did is irrepressible and an action of a deranged individual with a twisted sense of self importance and pathological entitlement that, with the aggravating of women objectification in society, evolved into deep misogyny.

Is scary to think that the youtuber posters and bloggers that are supporting this guy actions are nothing but trolls. I want to believe that they are trolls, but is clear that there is a big sentiment of misogyny out there.

The MRM bloggers are that are placing the blame to the feminist movement and even women in general are dead wrong. Although I don't like the extremely cautious stance that many women have taken when interacting with strangers, it is the direct result of the constant sexual aggression directed towards them. The blame lies on the aggressors themselves and only them.

However, i believe that "creeper shaming" is a real issue. Of lesser importance than misogyny, but something that hits closer to me. Also, wanting human contacts and relationships (not only sexual) is a human need. Sorry If misunderstood some of the comments on the issue, but I take issue with people saying that is entitlement. Also, I realize that my personal isolation is results of my (in)actions and inadequacies, not from a flaw on others. But the general hostility to social incompetent (leave awkward) people doesn't help things. I would like a bit more empathy from this world. :/

I think it's the term that people have a problem with. It's kinda like "reverse racism" in the way that they don't think it exists cause actual creepy people are reprehensible or something.

I took you saying it as people mislabeling the socially awkward but others did not. So I guess the definition is a matter of opinion.

 

[Direlect]

If you relate to the killer you need to do some deep introspection. He wasn't just lonely. He was a misogynistic creep who expected women to fall into his lap like his wealth and his car. He didn't want to work on himself and instead lashed out violently because he felt emasculated. But he wasn't emasculated by anyone but his own echo chamber.

I agree, but I think he had a mental illness that trapped him inside his own head. He came across as someone who literally did not understand how people worked. He thought the price of his sunglasses mathematically correlated with his success with getting a female. He was out in the stratosphere.

 

[DY_nasty]

I think he's pointing out how completely worthless that comment is to someone who suffers with social issues.

but ...its not lol

there's no easy answer for it. you can get the best advice in the world but eventually you're going to have to get out there and put it to work - and most importantly make it work for you

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Sorry for contributing on derailing this thread. What I believe about this incident has been said here many times by other, but I want to make myself clear:

What did guy did is irrepressible and an action of a deranged individual with a twisted sense of self importance and pathological entitlement that, with the aggravating of women objectification in society, evolved into deep misogyny.

Is scary to think that the youtuber posters and bloggers that are supporting this guy actions are nothing but trolls. I want to believe that they are trolls, but is clear that there is a big sentiment of misogyny out there.

The MRM bloggers are that are placing the blame to the feminist movement and even women in general are dead wrong. Although I don't like the extremely cautious stance that many women have taken when interacting with strangers, it is the direct result of the constant sexual aggression directed towards them. The blame lies on the aggressors themselves and only them.

However, i believe that "creeper shaming" is a real issue. Of lesser importance than misogyny, but something that hits closer to me. Also, wanting human contacts and relationships (not only sexual) is a human need. Sorry If misunderstood some of the comments on the issue, but I take issue with people saying that is entitlement. Also, I realize that my personal isolation is results of my (in)actions and inadequacies, not from a flaw on others. But the general hostility to social incompetent (leave awkward) people doesn't help things. I would like a bit more empathy from this world. :/

Socially awkward people get the least empathy from people who used to be socially awkward but have managed to at least partially improve. Because we've been in that same locked in my head mindset, and now that we are out of it we know how simple the solution is. Stop thinking and start doing. It's not a circular argument, it's a fucking straight line from problem to answer. We are frustrated at you guys because we know the answer, we give you the answer, but you don't want to hear it.

 

[maladroit]

"related videos" chain just led me to this lol

 

[On Demand]

Sorry for contributing on derailing this thread. What I believe about this incident has been said here many times by other, but I want to make myself clear:

What did guy did is irrepressible and an action of a deranged individual with a twisted sense of self importance and pathological entitlement that, with the aggravating of women objectification in society, evolved into deep misogyny.

Is scary to think that the youtuber posters and bloggers that are supporting this guy actions are nothing but trolls. I want to believe that they are trolls, but is clear that there is a big sentiment of misogyny out there.

The MRM bloggers are that are placing the blame to the feminist movement and even women in general are dead wrong. Although I don't like the extremely cautious stance that many women have taken when interacting with strangers, it is the direct result of the constant sexual aggression directed towards them. The blame lies on the aggressors themselves and only them.

However, i believe that "creeper shaming" is a real issue. Of lesser importance than misogyny, but something that hits closer to me. Also, wanting human contacts and relationships (not only sexual) is a human need. Sorry If misunderstood some of the comments on the issue, but I take issue with people saying that is entitlement. Also, I realize that my personal isolation is results of my (in)actions and inadequacies, not from a flaw on others. But the general hostility to social incompetent (leave awkward) people doesn't help things. I would like a bit more empathy from this world. :/

The ones that think there's something wrong with people like that are happily snuggled with their partner.

I know i keep repeating this but it's100% fact. How can they relate to something they've never experienced?

 

[kirblar]

Look, it's pretty normal to feel lonely and struggle with relationships, but focusing on how much he relates to the killer...what good is that going to do him?

I used the word "instead," because switching his focus will help him relate better to others. Continuing to focus on the things he has in common with the killer, is only going to make him feel more isolated and alone.

But that's not why they're being shared. They're not publicly pulling out unsavory anecdotes from their past to try and minimize/downplay the horror of what occurred. They're doing so in order to provide examples of how it gets into their head, how it rotted and festered in their minds, and how they eventually overcame it. They're not giving examples of this extreme example. They're giving examples of the banal, the mundane, the every day. How this stuff emerges in those who aren't prone to delusional fantasies of godhood.

There is value in that. Men and Women have radically different experiences and sharing them helps create an understanding of where the other half of the gender comes from. They aren't sharing these examples in order to show how much they're like a killer- it's to show both how someone might fall into the darkness, and also to show how someone might be pulled from the darkness before it consumes them.

 

[Scrooged]

"You have a drug problem? Just stop it, man!"

"You have a phobia? Just get over it, man!"

Yeah, that doesn't really help.

 

[gtrunner]

I understand what you're saying, but to be fair, he was the one who defined his life and death that way.

come on there is an insane amount of pressure for males to have sex by the end of their teen-age years. Hell, many men would state that you aren't a man until you've had sex.

Statements like " He died a virgin" just adds fuel to the fire. would it have been better if he had sex with the girls before he shot them ? (rhetorical question)

 

[CountAntonius]

But that's not why they're being shared. They're not publicly pulling out unsavory anecdotes from their past to try and minimize/downplay the horror of what occurred. They're doing so in order to provide examples of how it gets into their head, how it rotted and festered in their minds, and how they eventually overcame it. They're not giving examples of this extreme example. They're giving examples of the banal, the mundane, the every day. How this stuff emerges in those who aren't prone to delusional fantasies of godhood.

There is value in that. Men and Women have radically different experiences and sharing them helps create an understanding of where the other half of the gender comes from. They aren't sharing these examples in order to show how much they're like a killer- it's to show both how someone might fall into the darkness, and also to show how someone might be pulled from the darkness before it consumes them.

Thanks for this post.

 

[Oersted]

lmao @ using the term creepshame completely unironically. In this thread, no less.

What is restraint and how can I avoid it.

 

[paskowitz]

-LA times: Isla Vista shootings: Victim's father lashes out at politicians, NRA

I cracked (tears) watching this speech. That being said, this is more of a police / mental health system policy issue than a gun issue. Not saying the NRA is not a disgusting organization, but the police are woefully (technical skill and resources) equipped to assess and process people with potential mental health issues.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The ones that think there's something wrong with people like that are happily snuggled with their partner.

I know i keep repeating this but it's100% fact. How can they relate to something they've never experienced?

You're assuming people haven't experienced it for some period of time in their life. I always think about how Tina Fey tells the story about how she was a virgin until 24, and she still clearly sees herself differently than the rest of the world sees her, but she put the work in on herself.

 

[demon]

Okay - so tell me about all the social improvements that you can make by NOT talking to people? I'd love to hear it.

There is no one simple answer for everyone's problems. Therapy, psychiatry, medications etc exist for a reason and some people require years of treatment. "Just talk to people" is unhelpful, useless armchair advice.

 

[Vermillion]

The ones that think there's something wrong with people like that are happily snuggled with their partner.

I know i keep repeating this but it's100% fact. How can they relate to something they've never experienced?

Yeah, no. The world doesn't owe you much of anything. The fact that women can choose (and should be able to) means that sometimes they won't choose you. Maybe often. You don't deserve someone's attraction simply because attraction doesn't necessarily work like that.

 

[BobbyRobby]

If you relate to the killer you need to do some deep introspection. He wasn't just lonely. He was a misogynistic creep who expected women to fall into his lap like his wealth and his car. He didn't want to work on himself and instead lashed out violently because he felt emasculated. But he wasn't emasculated by anyone but his own echo chamber.

I'd say this guy did a lot of deep introspection, much more than most. Like you have said, he was emasculated by his own echo chamber. Wouldn't deep introspection amount to retreating to his echo chamber?

It'd be cool if people could talk freely about their feelings without being called...

creepy as fuck.

I agree that it is unnerving that so many people feel this way. I just don't see the need to shame them for being honest.

Maybe those people could talk it out, and get help if necessary. Shame may just make people retreat back into their cocoon, or a toxic space of like minded people.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

This is now the Dating-Age Thread with grap3fruitman all over again.

Excuses and bad justifications to self are more worthless to a person, in my view.

See also: Izick, Combine and more.

 

[Rayis]

What this boy needed wasn't a girlfriend, he needed psychiatric help, because seriously, someone who would go to such lengths to hurt people just because he couldn't get a girlfriend (which honestly, it's not like he even tried) is deeply disturbed. I hope the family of the victims can find peace after this unfortunate incident.

 

[Carcetti]

This thread is truly off the rails. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this kid had problems beyond "social awkwardness".

If you read his manifesto it's pretty clear that his social awkwardness would've been boosted by the fact that he had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Let's see: megalomaniac, violent, raging, cowardly, hateful, envious and jealous, entitled, absolutely racist, 100% woman-hating guy who believed he was a god because he had some money. How the hell do you think is anyone like that gonna find a relationship? He would've been creepier than Ted Bundy.

 

[Wuthering_Heights]

Holy. Shit.

The real irony here is that the kid looks pretty good so I imagine that the thing that repelled women was his personality rather than his physical appearance.

All in all it's really upsetting.

That's what I took away from it. His personality must have been absolutely horrible.

He's a good looking dude with money, how could he be so lonely and hateful.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

come on there is an insane amount of pressure for males to have sex by the end of their teen-age years. Hell, many men would state that you aren't a man until you've had sex.

Statements like " He died a virgin" just adds fuel to the fire. would it have been better if he had sex with the girls before he shot them ? (rhetorical question)

I'm more likely to empathize with the victims and every potential victim who has dealt with people like this killer than with the killer.

Keep in mind the guy didn't care for women's rights to escape virginity on their own either, as he shamed them for fucking everyone but him, and he idealized a world where women were lesser than men and fucked who men told them to fuck.

 

[MikeDown]

welp this thread has gone places.....

AP has a story on the victims

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-25-15-34-15

thanks for posting that, feel that much of the conversation has been about the killer; need to remember the victims.

 

[Oersted]

A man just killed 6 people. Motivated by pure hatred and mysogony. Some of you need a fucking reality check.

 

[Seeds]

but ...its not lol

there's no easy answer for it. you can get the best advice in the world but eventually you're going to have to get out there and put it to work - and most importantly make it work for you

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that it's a worthless comment because the people you're talking about have usually heard it more than once.

Like telling someone who's obese what he needs to do to lose weight as if he has never heard of it before.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yeah, no. The world doesn't owe you much of anything. The fact that women can choose (and should be able to) means that sometimes they won't choose you. Maybe often. You don't deserve someone's attraction simply because attraction doesn't necessarily work like that.

This.

 

[Moral Panic]

Mental illness is overly stigmatized, if anything. Considering how easy it is to own a gun, and easier yet to point it at someone and pull a trigger, we don't really have a lot of murders of this kind.

There's also the issue of Rodger's mental illness being fairly open and recognized by people around him. People tried to get him help. "The system" didn't really fail him.

I think it is foolish to double down on a concept as nebulous and broad as mental illness when it is clear that his participation in certain echo chambers exacerbated his misogyny and gave him ammunition for his superiority complex. There is a discussion to be had there, and one that sheds a light on some fairly common misogynist beliefs that are usually swept under the rug as inconsequential.

I disagree with both of these sentiments. First if his mental illness was open and recognized why was he able to legally purchase three guns and all that ammo? You don't see any problems with "the system" there?

Secondly it is pretty clear by reading his manifesto that PUA and MRA stuff played a very minor role, if any in the formulation of his ideas and his superiority complex. The guy writes 140 pages, PUAHate takes up less time than the time he was addicted to WoW and ran to there to get away from his social issues.

 

[mhi]

Mental illness is overly stigmatized, if anything. Considering how easy it is to own a gun, and easier yet to point it at someone and pull a trigger, we don't really have a lot of murders of this kind.

There's also the issue of Rodger's mental illness being fairly open and recognized by people around him. People tried to get him help. "The system" didn't really fail him.

I think it is foolish to double down on a concept as nebulous and broad as mental illness when it is clear that his participation in certain echo chambers exacerbated his misogyny and gave him ammunition for his superiority complex. There is a discussion to be had there, and one that sheds a light on some fairly common misogynist beliefs that are usually swept under the rug as inconsequential.

- I believe that there's actually a lack of awareness when it comes to mental illnesses. Especially on a global basis.
- So you admit that the help was ineffective but then say the "system didn't fail him" ? Just because he was diagnosed doesn't mean he was treated.
- And how exactly is this "clear" ?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

He probably should have taken some acting classes.

That monologue was horrid.

 

[DY_nasty]

"You have a drug problem? Just stop it, man!"

"You have a phobia? Just get over it, man!"

Yeah, that doesn't really help.

okay - i see where this is going and let me stop all of this shit.

if you get offered help, and don't enact any of it, its on you and no one else. if you get advice, medication, outpatient therapy, anything and don't do anything with it - its your fault for not doing your part.

 

[Keri]

But that's not why they're being shared. They're not publicly pulling out unsavory anecdotes from their past to try and minimize/downplay the horror of what occurred. They're doing so in order to provide examples of how it gets into their head, how it rotted and festered in their minds, and how they eventually overcame it. They're not giving examples of this extreme example. They're giving examples of the banal, the mundane, the every day. How this stuff emerges in those who aren't prone to delusional fantasies of godhood.

There is value in that. Men and Women have radically different experiences and sharing them helps create an understanding of where the other half of the gender comes from. They aren't sharing these examples in order to show how much they're like a killer- it's to show both how someone might fall into the darkness, and also to show how someone might be pulled from the darkness before it consumes them.

I understand what you're saying and agree with a good chunk of it, but I don't think it applies to the person I was responding to...On Demand clearly hasn't overcome these issues yet and he doesn't seem to be sharing, in an attempt to foster understanding...

The ones that think there's something wrong with people like that are happily snuggled with their partner.

I know i keep repeating this but it's100% fact. How can they relate to something they've never experienced?

I stand by my advice: If you want people to relate to you, you have to try relating to them first. You are so focused on what you don't have and its silly to assume that other people don't have similar experiences. No one thinks there's something wrong with wanting a connection with another person. What's potentially wrong, is how you go about getting it.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

A friend of a friend of a friend just posted a pretty long post about misogyny, where she lambasted every man on earth for being the same as this dude. The whole post made me really uncomfortable considering the timing.

No doubt though it's good we're talking about this. It's scary when you realize how many patriarchal values you unknowingly carry.

 

[Oersted]

Yeah, no. The world doesn't owe you much of anything. The fact that women can choose (and should be able to) means that sometimes they won't choose you. Maybe often. You don't deserve someone's attraction simply because attraction doesn't necessarily work like that.

The "fun" thing is, he rejected women. He wanted the "hot blondes" and laughed at the thought sleeping with ugly women.

 

[DY_nasty]

I'm not saying you're wring, but that it's a worthless comment because the people you're talking about have usually heard it more than once.

Like telling someone who's obese what he needs to do to lose weight as if he has never heard of it before.

If someone is told to change their diet and they don't, then its a different argument.

I'm not telling everyone a recipe for success - I'm telling them that they can't expect success if they never actually attempt to do anything.

 

[gugi40]

The lack of doing is kinda the issue in the first place.

I agree with you that that is the answer but it's also the main hurdle to begin with.

I can understand what you are saying about the answer to the problem being more than just black and white. It is very hard to just jump into social situations if you are unprepared for them and it can be mentally draining for some people. I used to be extremely shy and introverted, mixed in with depression which gave me social anxiety. Getting over that hurdle is something you have to push yourself to do, and it gets easier every time you do it, however getting to the point where you can push yourself is hard enough as it is.

I was able to make myself get used to it and it is now fairly easy. Obviously not everyone will have the same outcome though, but it is something to strive for.

Everyone going in 'circles' is essentially saying that you need to basically help yourself by experiencing social situations on your own, taking mistakes in stride and making the success fuel your drive to push yourself out there.
And to relate this to the Thread: This guy did not put himself out there and speak with women, which made his hate for them fester even more because he expected all of them to come to him instead, however..even if he put himself out there it still would not have helped him in the least. Especially if he got outright rejected, ugh, that probably would have sent him on an even worse tirade.

 

[Unbounded]

okay - i see where this is going and let me stop all of this shit.

if you get offered help, and don't enact any of it, its on you and no one else. if you get advice, medication, outpatient therapy, anything and don't do anything with it - its your fault for not doing your part.

So what if you don't get any of that?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

okay - i see where this is going and let me stop all of this shit.

if you get offered help, and don't enact any of it, its on you and no one else. if you get advice, medication, outpatient therapy, anything and don't do anything with it - its your fault for not doing your part.

But that might mean I have to leave my comfort zone/put in a modicum of effort! I'm gonna continue my internet pity party, thank you very much.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So what if you don't get any of that?

Then it's really not on the people on a forum who respond to you, is it?

 

[wildfire]

lmao @ using the term creepshame completely unironically. In this thread, no less.

I don't think creep shaming is a thing nation wide but in this forum what else would you call the fedora threads?

Even before fedoras were being used as the go-to phrase to stereotype creeps gaf has had multiple threads debating what is and isn't a creep.

Many people are very concerned about this.

 

[DY_nasty]

There is no one simple answer for everyone's problems. Therapy, psychiatry, medications etc exist for a reason and some people require years of treatment. "Just talk to people" is unhelpful, useless armchair advice.

Yeah. So not talking to people is great for advancing your social interactions.

No matter what advice, medication, therapy, etc you get -you actually have to DO something.

If you're just going to throw it all in the bushes then clearly you care about yourself... or something

 

[Devolution]

If I give you a walkthrough that contains how to deal with just about every situation you might encounter, you still have to get off your ass and get into those situations yourself. I am not a puppetmaster.

 

[DY_nasty]

So what if you don't get any of that?

You know you need to get it right?

Take it upon yourself to get it. No one is going to care about you more than you.

 

[Carcetti]

I find the attitude of 'maybe this wouldn't have happened if some woman had fucked him' not just annoying but offensive in cases like this, and it always comes up. The underlying message is that women should be prepared to have sex with men who demand it or expect to face violence in retribution. It also magically moves the responsibility away from the killer in the same vein as 'I'm a murderer because society made me do it'.

 

[Seeds]

If someone is told to change their diet and they don't, then its a different argument.

I'm not telling everyone a recipe for success - I'm telling them that they can't expect success if they never actually attempt to do anything.

Most of the time people need help to attempt these things. And someone who's alone is often not going to get help precisely because he is alone. In this case it seems not even his parent paid much attention to him.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I don't think creep shaming is a thing nation wide but in this forum what else would you call the fedora threads?

Entertainment.

 

[Prax]

I'm not saying you're wring, but that it's a worthless comment because the people you're talking about have usually heard it more than once.

Like telling someone who's obese what he needs to do to lose weight as if he has never heard of it before.

If it's really that much of an issue for some people, then it's a crapshoot to hope some magical person or group will help them out of this. Because the solution IS simple: practice talking and interacting with more people. I know it's scary, but you have to go do it. Go try. Smile and say hi to people. Ask them about their day. Talk about the weather. Be interested in their lives. A little at a time. See what works and what doesn't and KEEP DOING IT until it becomes instinct.

And luckily there is the internet. It is a baby step and it can help you formulate words and converse, like now! Just extrapolate some of that courage or will to post anything into your real life with real people.

If that stuff is not particularly obvious to you (because it's obvious!) or if fear of even making eye contact is a barrier, then go seek help (psychological help! life coaching! seek out support groups!). There is no easy way to do this if you are trapped behind a very stubborn communication barrier. You just have to gather the will and go! You have to build yourself initiative. No one can live your life for you and you have to remind yourself of that. YOU live your life. YOU make things happen for you.

btw I also have a lot of weird social anxiety issues, so I know practice is the only way to solve it and it was awful and took me a decade so have a semi-normal and shallow conversation and I'm still stupid, but I'm better than before. Find a way to motivate yourself and don't worry so much about failure. It's okay to fail a lot. You're still learning. We all kind of are.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Or that they're shy and introverted.

I've had people think I'm creepy just because I'm shy and introverted. Rare occasions someone might even think I'm stuck up when in fact I'm really shy. So yes, people can confuse shyness with being creepy because it's happened more than once.

I have never considered someone standing around alone at a party a creep.

It's good you understand that but some people might see the guy standing alone at a party to be creepy. I had a friend's mom think I was going to murder them at night because I was drinking in the living room by myself. However, her mom is actually clinically mentally ill, but things like this have happened a couple of times to me.

 

[DY_nasty]

Most of the time people need help to attempt these things. And someone who's alone is often not going to get help precisely because he is alone. In this case it seems not even his parent paid much attention to him.

Going back to an earlier theme in this thread... if you have the internet, you're never alone - for better or worse.

Until some new information comes out regarding his parents, its hard to say that they did anything grievous. They got him help. They can't forcefeed him without institutionalizing him and that's really big step in itself. Maybe there will be more information about that though. Not really ready to start piling on them when other parents have dropped the ball in much worse ways.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I don't know where this thread is going any more, so I'm leaving.

Once the smoke clears and there's more info, I'll come back.

 

[CountAntonius]

If it's really that much of an issue for some people, then it's a crapshoot to hope some magical person or group will help them out of this. Because the solution IS simple: practice talking and interacting with more people. I know it's scary, but you have to go do it. Go try. Smile and say hi to people. Ask them about the day. Talk about the weather. Be interested in their lives. A little at a time. See what works and what doesn't and KEEP DOING IT until it becomes instinct.

And luckily there is the internet. It is a baby step and it can help you formulate words and converse, like now! Just extrapolate some of that courage or will to post anything into your real life with real people.

If that stuff is not particularly obvious to you (because it's obvious!) or if fear of even making eye contact is a barrier, then go seek help (psychological help! life coaching). There is no easy way to do this if you are trapped behind a very stubborn communication barrier. You just have to gather the will and go! You have to build yourself initiative. No one can live your life for you and you have to remind yourself of that. YOU live your life. YOU make things happen for you.

btw I also have a lot of weird social anxiety issues, so I know practice is the only way to solve it and it was awful and took me a decade and I'm still stupid, but I'm better than before. Find a way to motivate yourself and don't worry so much about failure. It's okay to fail a lot. You're still learning.

It not a crapshoot or magical. Support groups offer support. They empower you by making you feel like you are not alone and pathetic. They help you realize it's ok and show you examples of people who worked through it and are willing to talk to you and be there for you so you can work through it as well. The end game is always more social interaction but having people help you to get there ant not feel so alone while you do it is a fantastic thing. Some people need motivation from an outside source, some people need meds to deal with crippling anxiety, some people need a support group to help them deal with it all these can and have worked and some people don't.

 

[Vermillion]

The "fun" thing is, he rejected women. He wanted the "hot blondes" and laughed at the thought sleeping with ugly women.

I guess he really didn't see women as people. If he can reject people that he's simply not attracted to, why can't they? But I guess that just goes back to the fact that he couldn't fathom that they wouldn't be attracted to him.