Support NeoGAF

[DY_nasty]

It not a crapshoot or magical. Support groups offer support. They empower you by making you feel like you are not alone and pathetic. They help you realize it's ok and show you examples of people who worked through it and are willing to talk to you and be there for you so you can work through it as well. The end game is always more social interaction but having people help you to get there ant not feel so alone while you do it is a fantastic thing. Some people need motivation from an outside source, some people need meds to deal with crippling anxiety, some people need a support group to help them deal with it all these can and have worked.

As long as its actual functional support and not an echo chamber, sure.

 

[Prax]

It not a crapshoot or magical. Support groups offer support. They empower you by making you feel like you are not alone and pathetic. They help you realize it's ok and show you examples of people who worked through it and are willing to talk to you and be there for you so you can work through it as well. The end game is always more social interaction but having people help you to get there ant not feel so alone while you do it is a fantastic thing. Some people need motivation from an outside source, some people need meds to deal with crippling anxiety, some people need a support group to help them deal with it all these can and have worked.

Yeah. I meant they don't spontaneously form around you. lol You have to go seek them and join them for the most part. Like actually go SEEK help.
A lot of people with social anxiety will balk at even the suggestion of trying THAT (because it requires asking for help or interacting with people on a deeper level). It's a stubborn issue. At some point you just have to go and do it and try to improve yourself.

^ And yeah. Hopefully not an insular pity-party. It needs to be constructive.

 

[CountAntonius]

As long as its actual functional support and not an echo chamber, sure.

That's why I said support group and not internet forum. The difference is in a support group the goal is to be self aware and take steps towards getting better.

 

[Seeds]

Going back to an earlier theme in this thread... if you have the internet, you're never alone - for better or worse.

Until some new information comes out regarding his parents, its hard to say that they did anything grievous. They got him help. They can't forcefeed him without institutionalizing him and that's really big step in itself. Maybe there will be more information about that though. Not really ready to start piling on them when other parents have dropped the ball in much worse ways.

I'm going to go ahead and assume internet made him worse. With a combination of people mocking him and reinforcing his ideas.

 

[Devolution]

I guess he really didn't see women as people. If he can reject people that he's simply not attracted to, why can't they? But I guess that just goes back to the fact that he couldn't fathom that they wouldn't be attracted to him.

It comes back again to a lack of empathy for others but expecting it for yourself or those like you. And you see this in tons of places, especially from people who utter sexist, racist shit or defend those who do. Why should x be fired for that? etc.

 

[CountAntonius]

I'm going to go ahead and assume internet made him worse. With a combination of people mocking him and reinforcing his ideas.

The internet is a dangerous social illusion. You can feel brave and social but you are neither because there are rarely any repercussions for your actions on here.

 

[DY_nasty]

That's why I said support group and not internet forum. The difference is in a support group the goal is to be self aware and take steps towards getting better.

I say it that way because by your definition, especially the first few lines - its really hard to tell apart.

I'm going to go ahead and assume internet made him worse. With a combination of people mocking him and reinforcing his ideas.

Yea

 

[SmZA]

Oh cool, so even this thread has turned into a Dating-Age thread.

Before writing your next post, how about you re-read the thread title and have a little think about what is and isn't appropriate subject matter for discussion.

I don't know how many of you are 'creeps' but there's at least a bit of narcissism going on in here.

 

[Oersted]

Guys, and I mean my male fellas... right here, right now we are talking about a murderer and his victims. Nothing else. He murdered people because he hated women. He rejected them. Looked down to them. Saw them as objects.
If you start talking about "but we creeps are rejected, so please understand", you are defending him. You are saying you are like him. If you ever wondered why female Gaffers feel uncomfortable here, or women around you... here is your answer.
And you know what, it doesn't have to be. Social anxiety is normal. Casanova is the exception, not the rule. We fall, we fail. All of us. But you are not him. You still can make the right choices. So show some fucking decency and leave it out.

 

[alterno69]

Do you think that if news outlets focused more on the victims of these crimes it would persuade other potential psychos from doing these horrible acts? These type of news inspire other to follow them, we rarely see the other side of the story, from the persoective of the victims and their families, what they left behind and who they were.

So much has been written and much more will be about this monster compared to the victims and their loved ones, it's so sad that we immortalize the monsters and forget about the victims, if we even get to know who they were at all.

 

[wildfire]

Guys, and I mean my male fellas... right here, right now we are talking about a murderer and his victims. Nothing else. He murdered people because he hated women. He rejected them. Looked down to them. Saw them as objects.
If you start talking about "but we creeps are rejected, so please understand", you are defending him. You are saying you are like him. If you ever wondered why female Gaffers feel uncomfortable here, or women around you... here is your answer.
And you know what, it doesn't have to be. Social anxiety is normal. Casanova is the exception, not the rule. We fall, we fail. All of us. But you are not him. You still can make the right choices. So show some fucking decency and leave it out.

What about the former creeps who are just talking about their past?

 

[anaron]

What about the former creeps who are just talking about their past?

Still weird and innaproporiate.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Do you think that if news outlets focused more on the victims of these crimes it would persuade other potential psychos from doing these horrible acts? These type of news inspire other to follow them, we rarely see the other side of the story, from the persoective of the victims and their families, what they left behind and who they were.

So much has been written and much more will be about this monster compared to the victims and their loved ones, it's so sad that we immortalize the monsters and forget about the victims, if we even get to know who they were at all.

Yes but maybe the victims families wouldn't be comfortable with that. It's got to be incredibly difficult for them right now.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What about the former creeps who are just talking about their past?

There are people who have no future now.

I think the problem here is some people don't understand that rejection and loneliness are universal problems. They just feel like theirs are more valid.

 

[CountAntonius]

Guys, and I mean my male fellas... right here, right now we are talking about a murderer and his victims. Nothing else. He murdered people because he hated women. He rejected them. Looked down to them. Saw them as objects.
If you start talking about "but we creeps are rejected, so please understand", you are defending him. You are saying you are like him. If you ever wondered why female Gaffers feel uncomfortable here, or women around you... here is your answer.
And you know what, it doesn't have to be. Social anxiety is normal. Casanova is the exception, not the rule. We fall, we fail. All of us. But you are not him. You still can make the right choices. So show some fucking decency and leave it out.

I haven't seen a single person defend him and this conversation is just an offshoot of a mental illness discussion related to him. Nobody has said they are him and nobody is talking about casanova lol wtf. Convo just veered for a few pages which is pretty normal in OT.

 

[SephiZack]

He should have asked Dating-Age some advice, it helped me a lot

 

[DECK'ARD]

This thread is all over the place.

 

[DY_nasty]

]I haven't seen a single person defend him[/B] and this conversation is just an offshoot of a mental illness discussion related to him. Nobody has said they are him and nobody is talking about casanova lol wtf. Convo just veered for a few pages which is pretty normal in OT.

Defend him outright? Not on this forum. But there's been a LOT of "I see a lot of myself in him".

Which was disturbing as fuck.

 

[CountAntonius]

Defend him outright? Not on this forum. But there's been a LOT of "I see a lot of myself in him".

Which was disturbing as fuck.

Because people who have had similar types of issues albeit not to that extreme feel the need to express their sadness about him not being able to get better and innocent people losing their lives because of it.

If you just want to focus on them saying they see or have seen a bit of themselves in him well then you can I guess but it's kind of missing the point they were trying to make. I'd hardly call it supporting him.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Guys, and I mean my male fellas... right here, right now we are talking about a murderer and his victims. Nothing else. He murdered people because he hated women. He rejected them. Looked down to them. Saw them as objects.
If you start talking about "but we creeps are rejected, so please understand", you are defending him. You are saying you are like him. If you ever wondered why female Gaffers feel uncomfortable here, or women around you... here is your answer.
And you know what, it doesn't have to be. Social anxiety is normal. Casanova is the exception, not the rule. We fall, we fail. All of us. But you are not him. You still can make the right choices. So show some fucking decency and leave it out.

I think there was some great discussion in this thread, people opening up and sharing. This is not defending him. People excusing his actions would be defending him. That's not happening. This is diagnosing a problem. I'd argue this is very important. It may inspire other people to be more open about their problems and get help.

But you seem to just want this thread to devolve, like so many others, to simply saying he was a misogynist piece of shit, casting blame without asking questions.

There's a lot of factors at play here. Understand that the narrative of the thread may not completely align with your understanding of the situation.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Because people who have had similar types of issues albeit not to that extreme feel the need to express their sadness about him not being able to get better and innocent people losing their lives because of it.

If you just want to focus on them saying they see or have seen a bit of themselves in him well then you can I guess but it's kind of missing the point they were trying to make. I'd hardly call it supporting him.

I really think it's a "what about me" thing more than anything else. That's how I've seen it.

I think there was some great discussion in this thread, people opening up and sharing. This is not defending him. People excusing his actions would be defending him. That's not happening. This is diagnosing a problem. I'd argue this is very important. It may inspire other people to be more open about their problems and get help.

But you seem to just want this thread to devolve, like so many others, to simply saying he was a misogynist piece of shit, casting blame without asking questions.

There's a lot of factors at play here. Understand that the narrative of the thread may not completely align with your understanding of the situation.

People are cautious and suspicious about the motivations behind those posts for good reason. You're very trusting of their narrative, which is fine, but don't dismiss others' skepticism over motivations.

 

[unknownstranger]

If you relate to the killer you need to do some deep introspection. He wasn't just lonely. He was a misogynistic creep who expected women to fall into his lap like his wealth and his car. He didn't want to work on himself and instead lashed out violently because he felt emasculated. But he wasn't emasculated by anyone but his own echo chamber.

This was 9 years ago which is why l'm ok talking about it. Although never diagnosed, I was really bipolar. What I said one night I had no intention of the next day. I never liked being anywhere near guns because I hated loud noises. I'm about the only guy in my family who doesn't hunt. I always wanted girls to come to me because I was so shy but never really expected it. The weird thing was the month before I went through all of this, I got sent to a mental hospital for depression and put on Zoloft (which I'm still on now). Before that, I never really said all these terrible things before. When I got sent to the mental hospital the second time, I got put on Risperdal, which I put the partial blame on for my massive weight gain and killing my self-esteem even more. Something happened at the mental hospital the second time I was there that changed my views a lot that I won't get into.

 

[DY_nasty]

Because people who have had similar types of issues albeit not to that extreme feel the need to express their sadness about him not being able to get better and innocent people losing their lives because of it.

If you just want to focus on them saying they see or have seen a bit of themselves in him well then you can I guess but it's kind of missing the point they were trying to make.

Being rejected? Feel alone? Not fitting in?

These are issues that have affected damn near everyone alive. There's a big difference between handling rejection poorly and taking any of the number of steps that this guy did. He was off the tracks long before he killed someone.

 

[Seeds]

I really think it's a "what about me" thing more than anything else. That's how I've seen it.

It's more of a ''this is more common than you think, but we're not supposed to talk about it'' thing.

Being rejected? Feel alone? Not fitting in?

These are issues that have affected damn near everyone alive. There's a big difference between handling rejection poorly and taking any of the number of steps that this guy did. He was off the tracks long before he killed someone.

People react differently to bullying. Are you really so surprised that some react differently to rejection?

 

[SRG01]

I cracked (tears) watching this speech. That being said, this is more of a police / mental health system policy issue than a gun issue. Not saying the NRA is not a disgusting organization, but the police are woefully (technical skill and resources) equipped to assess and process people with potential mental health issues.

Many police departments around the continent are starting to implement mental health policies and training, because a lot of these incidents can be prevented had officers and professionals been given proper training. It's finally been given its due recognition, but whether or not this training will yield results will take time.

As for this incident at hand though, I don't think it was a failure of the system but rather that this kid was functional enough to pass simple mental health assessments from the police. There's no real defense against that. The problem with psychopathy is that the person is amoral and not irrational or insane.

Then again, there can be arguments made as to whether he was actually a psychopath. Perhaps along a certain spectrum of psychopathy, but expressing a desire for women seems rather odd for this illness.

 

[CountAntonius]

I really think it's a "what about me" thing more than anything else. That's how I've seen it.

People are cautious and suspicious about the motivations behind those posts for good reason.

That's your opinion I guess. People tend to relate through personal experience. It's not as much making the discussion about them rather then expressing where these opinions come from.

Being rejected? Feel alone? Not fitting in?

These are issues that have affected damn near everyone alive. There's a big difference between handling rejection poorly and taking any of the number of steps that this guy did. He was off the tracks long before he killed someone.

Well the big one for me was blaming the world around him and becoming angry at them because of it.

I didn't mean to derail anything or make anything about me. I was just stating how I once had the same issue but pulled out of it and was sad to see he did not. Really all there was too it. But seems it was a mistake to do so. As far as this issue is concerned I'm done talking about it.

 

[anaron]

It's more of a ''this is more common than you think, but we're not supposed to talk about it'' thing.

Uh, the dude wanted slaves and concentration camps where *some* of the women would used for breeding

 

[Oersted]

Do you think that if news outlets focused more on the victims of these crimes it would persuade other potential psychos from doing these horrible acts? These type of news inspire other to follow them, we rarely see the other side of the story, from the persoective of the victims and their families, what they left behind and who they were.

So much has been written and much more will be about this monster compared to the victims and their loved ones, it's so sad that we immortalize the monsters and forget about the victims, if we even get to know who they were at all.

Yep, media plays a huge part. Being up there, with Bundy, Manson and Co. Some obviously try to achieve that.

There are people who have no future now.

I think the problem here is some people don't understand that rejection and loneliness are universal problems. They just feel like theirs are more valid.

Yep.

I haven't seen a single person defend him and this conversation is just an offshoot of a mental illness discussion related to him. Nobody has said they are him and nobody is talking about casanova lol wtf. Convo just veered for a few pages which is pretty normal in OT.

Noone outright defended him. But we had enough " he did something wrong, but.." , people with the urgent need to talk about their social anxieties and " I feel similiar..". If you don't realize how fucking dumb and scary that is...

 

[DY_nasty]

People react differently to bullying. Are you really so surprised that some react differently to rejection?

There's different and then there's get help because you can't handle yourself alone different.

Uh, the dude wanted slaves and concentration camps where *some* of the women would used for breeding

Thank you.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I'm finding this conversation a little ridiculous. Just looking at some of his manifesto proves how far gone he was. The guy had the emotional intelligence of a child, zero empathy and a seriously warped perspective on people in general. Very different from your average person who suffers from social anxiety and loneliness.

 

[cajunator]

Guys, and I mean my male fellas... right here, right now we are talking about a murderer and his victims. Nothing else. He murdered people because he hated women. He rejected them. Looked down to them. Saw them as objects.
If you start talking about "but we creeps are rejected, so please understand", you are defending him. You are saying you are like him. If you ever wondered why female Gaffers feel uncomfortable here, or women around you... here is your answer.
And you know what, it doesn't have to be. Social anxiety is normal. Casanova is the exception, not the rule. We fall, we fail. All of us. But you are not him. You still can make the right choices. So show some fucking decency and leave it out.

Im pretty sure female gaffers and women in general dont feel uncomfortable around me. But Im kind of a bouncy happy thing and quite difficult to take seriously. I know most women think my personality is a bit odd and thats cool with me.

 

[Seeds]

Uh, the dude wanted slaves and concentration camps where *some* of the women would used for breeding

Clearly you don't think that's what people meant when they brought up having similar types of issues?

There's different and then there's get help because you can't handle yourself alone different.

I thought you meant some of the members here. This guy was on the extreme side of the spectrum and probably a lost cause.

 

[KmA]

Whenever someone in this kid's position is a murderer, it suddenly becomes a discussion of mental illness. This is actually kind of horrible because it stigmatizes mental disorders even more then they already are. It also lessens the kids actions because clearly he was not right in the head, so the discussion becomes less about the choices he made and more about sympathizing with him.

Which I find quite hilarious. I remember there was this thread a long time ago about some Muslim terrorist and I mentioned how I pitied him but I understood his intentions. People here were completely against that, maybe rightfully so, but it looks like a lot of posters are doing the same here. That terrorist's actions aren't reduced to erratic mental behavior, but this rich kid's actions are? Maybe people don't realize they are segregating others through this behavior, but they are.

I'm not saying he does not have any mental illness(es), but it looks like a lot of people are excusing him for it.

 

[Oersted]

I'm finding this conversation a little ridiculous. Just looking at some of his manifesto proves how far gone he was. The guy had the emotional intelligence of a child, zero empathy and a seriously warped perspective on people in general. Very different from your average person who suffers from social anxiety and loneliness.

Yep.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

That's your opinion I guess. People tend to relate through personal experience. It's not as much making the discussion about them rather then expressing where these opinions come from.

But most of us know. We've been there. Rejection, loneliness, and justifying things to yourself are universally understood. To some of us, it just comes off like "what about me" because what else could it be about other than explaining what's mostly obvious?

 

[SRG01]

Whenever someone in this kid's position is a murderer, it suddenly becomes a discussion of mental illness. This is actually kind of horrible because it stigmatizes mental disorders even more then they already are. It also lessens the kids actions because clearly he was not right in the head, so the discussion becomes less about the choices he made and more about sympathizing with him.

Which I find quite hilarious. I remember there was this thread a long time ago about some Muslim terrorist and I mentioned how I pitied him but I understood his intentions. People here were completely against that, maybe rightfully so, but it looks like a lot of posters are doing the same here. That terrorist's actions aren't reduced to erratic mental behavior, but this rich kid's actions are? Maybe people don't realize they are segregating others through this behavior, but they are.

I'm not saying he does not have any mental illness(es), but it looks like a lot of people are excusing him for it.

Um, I'm not sure where you're reading that but people are certainly not excusing him because of his mental illness. Rather, recognizing that mental illness can have serious outcomes and can be intervened makes the incident even more tragic.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Whenever someone in this kid's position is a murderer, it suddenly becomes a discussion of mental illness. This is actually kind of horrible because it stigmatizes mental disorders even more then they already are. It also lessens the kids actions because clearly he was not right in the head, so the discussion becomes less about the choices he made and more about sympathizing with him.

Which I find quite hilarious. I remember there was this thread a long time ago about some Muslim terrorist and I mentioned how I pitied him but I understood his intentions. People here were completely against that, maybe rightfully so, but it looks like a lot of posters are doing the same here. That terrorist's actions aren't reduced to erratic mental behavior, but this rich kid's actions are? Maybe people don't realize they are segregating others through this behavior, but they are.

I'm not saying he does not have any mental illness(es), but it looks like a lot of people are excusing him for it.

Who is excusing him?

I swear a lot of the posts the last few pages are just being made off the cuff based on nothing.

There's a lot of posts being made that don't actually relate to him or what's happened. Just to address other issues, the thread is all over the place.

 

[CountAntonius]

But most of us know. We've been there. Rejection, loneliness, and justifying things to yourself are universally understood. To some of us, it just comes off like "what about me" because what else could it be about other than explaining what's mostly obvious?

Well it wasn't. Just an internal monologue stupidly typed out on the internet which I regretted and edited before anyone even mentioned it. Further reminder to keep my personal reflections to myself.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Well it wasn't. Just an internal monologue stupidly typed out on the internet which I regretted and edited before anyone even mentioned it. Further reminder to keep my personal reflections to myself.

Ugh, don't go here.

 

[wildfire]

I really think it's a "what about me" thing more than anything else. That's how I've seen it.

People are cautious and suspicious about the motivations behind those posts for good reason. You're very trusting of their narrative, which is fine, but don't dismiss others' skepticism over motivations.

You have a decent reason to be cautious but bee careful not to put words in people's mouths. I had to relearn that myself with the Mark Cuban incident.

How about you point out the posts that you feel are advocating excuses? I would bet most of them have done the opposite but you glossed over that point by accident.

Uh, the dude wanted slaves and concentration camps where *some* of the women would used for breeding

And a handful of posters here admitted to having similar thoughts and got over it through unspecified means. How about asking them what did they do to improve themselves instead of thinking there is no hope for such people?

 

[anaron]

Clearly you don't think that's what people meant when they brought up having similar types of issues

Probably not but it's still deeply unsettling that anyone would even attempt to use this psycho as a reflection of their own issues when most if not all of his stem from sociopathic entitlement.

I mean, is that really the platform anyone should be using?

 

[CountAntonius]

Ugh, don't go here.

?

It was too personal and easily misconstrued for the internet is my point.

 

[Not]

It's always young men who go on these shooting rampages, yet we're still acting defensive and still blaming women when it's pretty exclusively men who do this.

F*cked in the head or not, mentally ill women haven't gone on shooting rampages. Why? It has to be a cultural problem. We're enabling this in men somehow.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

?

It was too personal and easily misconstrued for the internet is my point.

I mean the "Further reminder to keep my personal reflections to myself." It's awkward.

If you feel your points aren't being accepted in general, think about a different way to frame it so we can understand instead of giving up and blaming others.

 

[Hatchtag]

It's always young men who go on these shooting rampages, yet we're still acting defensive and still blaming women when it's pretty exclusively men who do this.

F*cked in the head or not, mentally ill women haven't gone on shooting rampages. Why? It has to be a cultural problem. We're enabling this in men somehow.

There's been like 4 school shootings where more than 5 people died, is that really accurate sample data?

 

[Makai]

I just caught up on the thread. It's gotten way too abstract.

 

[DY_nasty]

It's always young men who go on these shooting rampages, yet we're still acting defensive and still blaming women when it's pretty exclusively men who do this.

F*cked in the head or not, mentally ill women haven't gone on shooting rampages. Why? It has to be a cultural problem. We're enabling this in men somehow.

eh... i wouldn't necessarily say that. its rare, but it happens.

There's been like 4 school shootings where more than 5 people died, is that really accurate sample data?

using a body count as a measuring tool isn't really how you go about it either

school violence is a lot more common than people want to admit or believe

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

It's always young men who go on these shooting rampages, yet we're still acting defensive and still blaming women when it's pretty exclusively men who do this.

F*cked in the head or not, mentally ill women haven't gone on shooting rampages. Why? It has to be a cultural problem. We're enabling this in men somehow.

According to Wikipedia, there's only about three notable school shootings committed by women. I'm sure there are many, many more women who do commit gun crimes, but never to the extent of their male counterparts.

Surprisingly (or not), the most notable one, Laurie Dann, is constantly brought up by Men's Right Activists:

In his book The Myth of Male Power, author Warren Farrell suggested that Laurie Dann's actions were an example of women's violence against men. He claimed, erroneously, that all of Dann's victims were male, that she burned down a Young Men's Jewish Council, burned two boys in a basement, shot her own son, and alleged that she killed an eight-year old rapist.[17] Men's rights activists, academics, and the media have repeated Farrell's errors and conclusion.[18][19][20][21] Farrell later issued a correction on his web site.[22]

 

[Oersted]

Comparing this thread to the reactions in "#ViolenceIsViolence: Domestic abuse advert Mankind" is quite telling. For all the wrong reasons.

You have a decent reason to be cautious but bee careful not to put words in people's mouths. I had to relearn that myself with the Mark Cuban incident.

How about you point out the posts that you feel are advocating excuses? I would bet most of them have done the opposite but you glossed over that point by accident.





And a handful of posters here admitted to having similar thoughts and got over it through unspecified means. How about asking them what did they do to improve themselves instead of thinking there is no hope for such people?

You overcome your anxieties? Congrats, I guess? What does it have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[CountAntonius]

I mean the "Further reminder to keep my personal reflections to myself." It's awkward.

If you feel your points aren't being accepted in general, think about a different way to frame it so we can understand instead of giving up and blaming others.

I just forgot how much time I wasted going around in circles on internet forums and why I tend to stay out of these topics completely. Bad habit.