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[Infinite]

As a raging feminist I want more insight and discussion into what the "forms" of misogyny actually are, individually, and how they differ, and "who" can be pinned to what form. "Knowledge is power." A key reason so many people dislike common discussions picking at misogyny is how overly basic and general the anti-misogynist discussion seems. This current thing about the massacre is too basic IMO because relevant human details like what defines "normal" etc and how that can be used to draw conclusions onto other "normal" or "non-normal" persons simply aren't being given the time of day.

Yes, misogyny is bad. Is that really the best we can do?

I'm not sure what you're actually arguing anymore.

You are the one who created this ditchotomy between Elliot "brand" of misogyny and "normal" misogyny. My rebuttal to that is misogyny is not normal and it should not be a reality that people have to accept. When I said all "forms" of misogyny is bad that's me in contention your insistence on compartmentalizing Elliot as an outlier, an alien when he is in fact apart of our society by saying he has his own kind of misogyny and what does this have to do with the normal kind. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

This is a society that perpetuates a hyper masculine culture which Elliot couldn't live up too and this fueled his rage, hatred, and suffering. A hyper masculine culture that as a consequences views women as things and not as people. Elliot is just an extreme case but we see misogyny manifest itself on a daily basis in less extreme but still problematic ways. The fact of the matter is far too many men have similar views to Elliot. This issue should work on enlightening that if we can get pass compartmentalizing it.

 

[Vermillion]

People are saying that misogyny itself all forms of it is bad and inherently sociopathic. Full stop. Misogyny isn't "regular" or it should not be. This is a problem. Elliot's views are not unique to only him he just took an extreme course of action. The reality is that a many women every day are abused one way or another by men.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that misogyny is sociopathic or irregular, honestly. It's far too common for that.

Plus our culture effectively supports it.

 

[Infinite]

Yeah, I wouldn't say that misogyny is sociopathic or irregular, honestly. It's far too common for that.

Plus our culture effectively supports it.

It's inherently sociopathic, there's no way around that. It being a "norm" is a damn shame because this should not be and people don't have to accept that.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

It's inherently sociopathic, there's no way around that. It being a "norm" is a damn shame because this should not be and people don't have to accept that.

In most cases it's ignorance and education can easily fix it. If it's more deeply rooted, then yeah, I agree that it's sociopathic.

 

[Infinite]

In most cases it's ignorance and education can easily fix it. If it's more deeply rooted, then yeah, I agree that it's sociopathic.

Well the concept itself is sociopathic is what I'm saying but the individuals who internalize can definitely be fixed with education and understanding

 

[Dark Octave]

His father was attached the the Hunger Games, and he was rich. Yeah, the only reason he wasn't getting laid is because he was young looking and smallish.

Damn, way to totally ignore the first half of my entire post.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Well the concept itself is sociopathic is what I'm saying but the individuals who internalize can definitely be fixed with education and understanding

Gotcha.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Was reading a Facebook post about this tragedy from a friend of mine and someone she knows (an older white lady, not surprisingly) dropped the knowledge on the REAL cause of this and other shootings.

That's right:

Also, he said himself in that "manifesto" that he descended deep into insanity when he locked himself into a world of violent video games. That is a common thread for almost every crazed white male mass murderer, & I don't know why nothing is done about it. Because yes, it is terrible if a person has a gun that is capable of quickly killing many people. But if the weapon is a knife or a blunt instrument, and there is just one victim - your family member - does the weapon really matter? Shouldn't we care more about the underlying reason the maniac wants to obtain any weapon and kill people in the first place? These games obscure reality for already weak, unstable people. They give them a sense of control that they don't have in the real world. I do not see a reason any parent would allow his teenager to play violent video games, but obviously there is a huge demand. Do the creators of these products regularly fund political campaigns? Why are people not outraged about this?

 

[Hari Seldon]

For some reason I just heard about this shooting as with the weekend I didn't have the news on. I glanced over the last few pages and to me the misogyny seems to be a result of him being completely socially stunted from being addicted to WoW when he was young and being heavily on social media later. An addictive MMO when he is young that stunts his mental intelligence + social media obsession + Asberger and you end up with someone who people don't really want to be friends with.

Once you end up a loner it is only natural you will start to seek out other types of shunned communities like the misogyny internet stuff.

 

[Vermillion]

It's inherently sociopathic, there's no way around that. It being a "norm" is a damn shame because this should not be and people don't have to accept that.

Eh. Maybe a sociopathic tendency, like lying or stealing. But it doesn't imply sociopathy on its own. But I suppose this is a semantic argument.

 

[Infinite]

Eh. Maybe a sociopathic tendency, like lying or stealing. But it doesn't imply sociopathy on its own. But I suppose this is a semantic argument.

It's not a semantic argument. Misogyny the concept itself is inherently sociopathic because it view women or people as things.

 

[Vermillion]

It's not a semantic argument. Misogyny the concept itself is inherently sociopathic because it view women or people as things.

Only as much as lying and stealing are, in that they treat people as ends. But I digress. We can agree that misogyny is bad. The rest is unimportant.

 

[jmdajr]

For some reason I just heard about this shooting as with the weekend I didn't have the news on. I glanced over the last few pages and to me the misogyny seems to be a result of him being completely socially stunted from being addicted to WoW when he was young and being heavily on social media later. An addictive MMO when he is young that stunts his mental intelligence + social media obsession + Asberger and you end up with someone who people don't really want to be friends with.

Once you end up a loner it is only natural you will start to seek out other types of shunned communities like the misogyny internet stuff.

I was thinking about how I had friends before I got into videogames, and back then there was no online. You enjoyed them together in person. But if you flip that around, videogames before having some social friend making skills, can't be heathly man.

 

[squall211]

That is my concern, there is already a page on Facebook dedicated to him calling him a hero

I hope that's not the case. I said in an earlier post pages back that I'm much older than him and still a virgin...and I've never once had a thought about going on a killing spree due to my lack of sexual fullfillment.

 

[Kazerei]

Only as much as lying and stealing are, in that they treat people as ends. But I digress. We can agree that misogyny is bad. The rest is unimportant.

Lying and stealing are sociopathic too

 

[Vermillion]

Lying and stealing are sociopathic too

Eh. Maybe a sociopathic tendency, like lying or stealing. But it doesn't imply sociopathy on its own. But I suppose this is a semantic argument.

.

 

[dschalter]

I was thinking about how I had friends before I got into videogames, and back then there was no online. You enjoyed them together in person. But if you flip that around, videogames before having some social friend making skills, can't be heathly man.

Him being an outcast predated videogames though. It's possible that if he hadn't had the escape valve of video games he would have had better social skills, but it seems likely he would have read books, built model trains, or really done anything at all that doesn't require normal social interaction.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I was thinking about how I had friends before I got into videogames, and back then there was no online. You enjoyed them together in person. But if you flip that around, videogames before having some social friend making skills, can't be heathly man.

Exactly, and now even a lack of friends is yet another "score" that people can see on social media and therefore becomes something for a mentally undeveloped person to obsess about.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

It's not a semantic argument. Misogyny the concept itself is inherently sociopathic because it view women or people as things.

I've seen people called misogynists for not thinking Princess Peach falling into the damsel in distress trope is problematic.

I don't know a man, woman or child in real life who has a problem with Princess peach falling into that trope/ stereotype.

Is everybody I know sociopaths? Seeing the word Misogyny used in these two cases is pretty confusing.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

This is America. We have a special relationship with guns. We have more guns than any other country. We have far more gun crimes, suicides and violence than any other first world, western nation. The stats are dizzying.

Combine that with shockingly bad mental health care and appalling health care, period, and massive wealth inequality and you get a very bad result.

I agree with one thing that the NRA likes to say a lot. Guns don't kill people.

Americans with guns kill people. And after it happens, we cannot blame guns. We have to discuss everything else except guns. We can even blame it on movie or comic books. Anything except guns.

This is a good point but I would also add, as you mentioned above, that we blame it on movies, games, music, comic books and anything except guns and a crappy mental health care system.

 

[APF]

I've seen people called misogynists for not thinking Princess Peach falling into the damsel in distress trope is problematic.

Have you?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This is a good point but I would also add, as you mentioned above, that we blame it on movies, games, music, comic books and anything except guns and a crappy mental health care system.

But isn't the major failure in this specific case the fact that the police didn't bother to watch the Youtube videos that made his parents go to the police in the first place? Like, we have this system in place to deal with guys like him once threats start getting made but it seems the police weren't aware of the seriousness of the threat therefore noting was done to remove him. They just knocked, had a talk, he seemed nice so they left it at that.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Have you?

You haven't seen it suggested, then watch the push back and the back and forth between the two groups?

 

[Infinite]

I've seen people called misogynists for not thinking Princess Peach falling into the damsel in distress trope is problematic.

I don't know a man, woman or child in real life who has a problem with Princess peach falling into that trope/ stereotype.

Is everybody I know sociopaths? Seeing the word Misogyny used in these two cases is pretty confusing.

What are you talking about?

 

[The Technomancer]

I've seen people called misogynists for not thinking Princess Peach falling into the damsel in distress trope is problematic.

I don't know a man, woman or child in real life who has a problem with Princess peach falling into that trope/ stereotype.

Is everybody I know sociopaths? Seeing the word Misogyny used in these two cases is pretty confusing.

Have you honestly seen the word misogyny? Or have you seen "sexist" and conflated the two. Because that's something I've seen before.

Although yes, I suppose somewhere on Tumblr some group of four people considers Princess Peach's existence is mysogynist

 

[kirblar]

It's not a semantic argument. Misogyny the concept itself is inherently sociopathic because it view women or people as things.

What people are trying to say when they back up and view the Misogyny as a portion of a wider whole is try and answer the question "What makes the Misogynists different from the non-Misogynists?" in order to figure out how to approach individuals who might be able to be talked down from the problematic views without mental health intervention.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

But isn't the major failure in this specific case the fact that the police didn't bother to watch the Youtube videos that made his parents go to the police in the first place? Like, we have this system in place to deal with guys like him once threats start getting made but it seems the police weren't aware of the seriousness of the threat therefore noting was done to remove him. They just knocked, had a talk, he seemed nice so they left it at that.

You're right. In this case, it was the incompetence and/or laziness of the police which is also nothing new. I still believe a better mental health care system may have avoided him even making such a video in the first place but that's nothing we can say for sure.

 

[APF]

You haven't seen it suggested, then watch the push back and the back and forth between the two groups?

Wait, so not actually called?

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Anyone post Joe the Plumber's comments on his blog yet? Because my goodness.

"I am sorry you lost your child. I myself have a son and daughter and the one thing I never want to go through, is what you are going through now," wrote Wurzelbacher, who became something of a mascot for John McCain's failed 2008 presidential campaign. "But: As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights."

Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights'

 

[White Man]

Anyone post Joe the Plumber's comments on his blog yet? Because my goodness.



Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights'

...it really wouldn't have taken much effort to reword that into something less confrontational.

 

[-COOLIO-]

...it really wouldn't have taken much effort to reword that into something less confrontational.

lol yeah. it looked like he was trying to at the start and then he gave up by the end.

 

[DarkKyo]

Anyone post Joe the Plumber's comments on his blog yet? Because my goodness.



Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights'

Somebody tell this ass clown he already had his 5 pathetic minutes in the spotlight.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Have you honestly seen the word misogyny? Or have you seen "sexist" and conflated the two. Because that's something I've seen before.

Although yes, I suppose somewhere on Tumblr some group of four people considers Princess Peach's existence is mysogynist

Yeah, the bold is possible.

What are you talking about?

Just trying to explain why the word can be white noise for some so it doesn't carry the wait it should. And it leads to what looks like push back, when it could be confusing.

 

[Infinite]

What people are trying to say when they back up and view the Misogyny as a portion of a wider whole is try and answer the question "What makes the Misogynists different from the non-Misogynists?" in order to figure out how to approach individuals who might be able to be talked down from the problematic views without mental health intervention.

I see but when I say misogyny is sociopathic I don't mean people are sociopathic when they internalize views and opinions that are misogynistic. I'm talking about the concept itself being conducive to sociopathic behaviors and beliefs and society itself being conducive to it.

 

[APF]

Yeah, the bold is possible.

So not called or suggested, but only possible. I don't think you're representing yourself well with these posts.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

You're right. In this case, it was the incompetence and/or laziness of the police which is also nothing new. I still believe a better mental health care system may have avoided him even making such a video in the first place but that's nothing we can say for sure.

I'm really not sure about that. The problem wasn't that he didn't have a good mental health care system in place to assist him. It was that he didn't want help in the first place. He didn't think anything was wrong with him. He wanted to wallow in self-pity and negativity. He delighted in it.

Outside of being identified by the authorities as a potential threat and being forcibly provided treatment and medication I'm not sure what improvements to mental health would have helped with this specific case.

 

[Lambtron]

You haven't seen it suggested, then watch the push back and the back and forth between the two groups?

In those discussions, especially the ones that were tied into the Tropes vs. Women in Video Games series, a lot of the people who were saying that Peach didn't fall into the damsel in distress trope were also spouting off a bunch of misogynist bullshit. Or they have a pretty extensive history of posting misogynist garbage on GAF. That's the difference there, I think.

When people have an extensive history of sexist/misogynist posts, I am not going to treat a sexist/misogynist post in a discussion in a vacuum. It just gets old. So yeah, maybe that person is just talking about Peach in that thread. But maybe for years they've made terrible sexist posts.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

So not called or suggested, but only possible. I don't think you're representing yourself well with these posts.

I'll bookmark stuff for you in the future if that's what you'd like.

 

[APF]

I'll bookmark stuff for you in the future if that's what you'd like.

I just don't understand why you have a strong opinion on something for which the basis of you admit you have no evidence and might have misconstrued.

 

[Infinite]

I'm really not sure about that. The problem wasn't that he didn't have a good mental health care system in place to assist him. It was that he didn't want help in the first place. He didn't think anything was wrong with him. He wanted to wallow in self-pity and negativity. He delighted in it.

Outside of being identified by the authorities as a potential threat and being forcibly provided treatment and medication I'm not sure what improvements to mental health would have helped with this specific case.

Not necessarily improvements to mental health procedures but distigmatizing seeking help and being diagnosed with it would have helped a ton I believe.

 

[kirblar]

I see but when I say misogyny is sociopathic I don't mean people are sociopathic when they internalize views and opinions that are misogynistic. I'm talking about the concept itself being conducive to sociopathic behaviors and beliefs and society itself being conducive to it.

Sure, but society is reflecting the people who created it. Men ARE the problem, and that means having to look at the Men and trying to determine why a subset are victimizing women. When the discussion turns in that direction some seem to get upset because they see it as being sympathy towards the perpetrators, when it's not intended as such.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Anyone post Joe the Plumber's comments on his blog yet? Because my goodness.



Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights'

Wow.

 

[BumbleB]

Anyone post Joe the Plumber's comments on his blog yet? Because my goodness.



Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights'

He is right, but he's being an asshole about it. He could have worded this 100 different ways without coming off like a dick.

 

[……forgetit]

Anyone post Joe the Plumber's comments on his blog yet? Because my goodness.



Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights'

Joe the plumber is still relevant?

 

[Trey]

Have you?

The point being, and what I think Vermillion was getting at, is that having a catch all "bad thing" that we try to apply to every situation isn't really realistic. What's misogynistic to one person isn't to another (not to say all interpretations are equally valid). Now we can say that it's simply treating women as objects but that's not sufficient for me. I don't think too many people here will say that a person is misogynistic for watching porn. But what we all can agree on is that this person held destructive views that were largely misogynistic (antagonistic to women). His hate in general was fueled by his view toward women, which was unhealthy in all respects.

We are a complex, flexible people. Not adhering to cultural expectations at all times in all ways does not necessarily make a person a sociopath. There's nuance. We can set rules and guidelines and do our best to get people to tow those lines. The best we can do is minimize harm, but I don't think rigidly labeling everything that's "a bad thing" as sociopathic is the way to do it.

 

[APF]

The point being, and what I think Vermillion was getting at

Uh I'm not arguing with Vermillion's posts, but TwEE-N-Toast's.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Anyone post Joe the Plumber's comments on his blog yet? Because my goodness.

Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights'

Joe should stick to plumbing. He can't write for shit.

I get his message, but a little bit of time and sensitivity could do wonders for you.

Also, take up a writing class before the Internet makes fun of your insensitive ass.

 

[EatinOlives]

Joe should stick to plumbing. He can't write for shit.

I get his message, but a little bit of time and sensitivity could do wonders for you.

Also, take up a writing class before the Internet makes fun of your insensitive ass.

The audience he writes to you has the same or lower level of literacy, though.

 

[Vermillion]

I was just being a pedant about psychology, really.

I think the kid was hella misogynistic.

 

[Tugatrix]

Is that even treatable? Look at this guy, he received professional help for years and only grew worse.

Yes it's treatable, but like everything in psychology you can only change if you want, this guy could have spend loads of hours in theraphy, but he still retain the mind set of me against the world, that his problems are all from external origins.