Metal Gear canon will ruin The Phantom Pain

TheLostBigBoss said:
I always wanted an MGS to be extremely serious in nature. To have it be almost devoid of it's silly shenanigans and fourth wall breaking things. To be a true, down to earth gritty story of the implications of Child Soldiers and the horrors that Big Boss will commit.
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And there's your problem. That's NOT what Metal Gear has ever been, and I find it strange that after 5+ games some fans still want the series to be something completely different.
 
Betty said:
Well it sure seems like Kojima found himself an editor or just got more harsh with his edits because there's far fewer cutscenes in Ground Zeroes and the codec is so less intrusive now.

He also said he wanted to have less cutscenes in MGSV and tell the story more through gameplay.
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That's awesome and actually makes me 100% more interested in MGSV. Kojima definitely has interesting things to say -- it's just a matter of him finding less intrusive and more affecting ways to say it. That's wonderful if he's taking a more subtle approach. :-)
 
NullPointer said:
Canon.

And this is why I'm glad that I don't know and don't care for all the twists and turns of the series. The in-the-moment reality of the game is epic, fourth-wall breaking nonsense and I love it.
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And this is the only way to go about things with the MGS series post-MGS2. Just take it one game at a time.

We all kept asking for more. So let's stop bitching every time a game releases and it doesn't come packing with answers to all of life's questions.
 
dancingphlower said:
Maybe a reboot is needed. Just start over. Hell, they should do it Days of Future Past style, combining the Big Boss and Solid eras in one game. At any rate, the canon is so confusing at this point, I can't say I care too much anymore.
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Hell yeah, and make it about Grey Fox. Everybody knows that he's the best MGS character.

"Make me feel alive again!"
 
OP your post is excellent but I have one objection.
Peace Walker's Side Op's silly shenanigans are far from being Canon.
 
I highly doubt (And hope) that MGSV will be as serious as Kojima claims.

Metal Gear should still keep it's silliness and over the top stuff. I would absolutely hate if the series became "serious". A huge, HUGE part of why I love the franchise is because it is so ridiculous and cheesy, especially when breaking the fourth wall.
 
Every time I see a discussion of MGS2, I can't help but think of this post.

Stealth_Cobra said:
There was a point to MGS2 ?

You mean the "brilliant" game about an AI system designed to censor the net that decides the best course of action to test his net-censoring abilities is to sink two tankers , one filled with oil , the other filled with marines, so he can frame Solid Snake for the deed ... Then allows a mentally unstable cowboy with split personality disorder to hijack some badass nuclear super weapon for the next part of their very elaborate plan. Already very credible as a setup.

They that AI proceed to spend the next couple of years building a bogus facility that doesn't clean Manhattan bay, instead they use it to build a gigantic battleship underneath. Then they try to coax a fringe group of terrorists into hijacking the facility, to capture the president and to gain nuclear capacity. But it's all part of their "brilliant" plan, of course.

Now they can finally test their net-censoring prowess by coaxing Raiden, an unstable recruit with personal problems, into completing a mission, by the power of ... a Colonel Cambell AI that has the gift of being able to say "Raiden, you must complete your mission" to motivate raiden, and with the help of his naggy girlfriend .

To test the boy's progress , they hire... A fat man ... on rollerskates to put live bombs all over the place, bombs which can blow everything apart if the young recruit fail. But the recruit manages to disarm the bombs, mainly because of Pliskin's involvement, although he was not "featured" in the simulation. That's right ,he would have failed without Pliskin... But let's ignore that.

In the end , their plan is a "resounding success". I mean, it's of no consequence that the president is killed during the mission , the big shell is destroyed and the oil gets spilled back into Manhattan bay , that Arsenal Gear crashes into Manhattan (hope your net censor program works, cause you got some heavy censoring to make everyone in New York forget about that ship that blew up half the town) . Remember how the revelation that the US had been developing REX created a huge international incident ? Now the US will have to explain to the whole world how they were developing a gigantic nuclear submarine city and it got hijacked by terrorists ? But the mission is clearly a success , because AI Cambell managed to make a recruit finish his mission by giving him basic orders like "Raiden, you must disarm the bombs". Clearly, this will help tremendously in terms of building the program's ability to "create context" and censor the net. Clearly, MGS2 is the pinnacle of video game storytelling , a subtle masterpiece of coherence and brilliance that is the equivalent of the best works of modern and antique literature.
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I mean, the game is wonderful thematically, but the story is so stupid that you basically need to say "the story is supposed to be nonsense" to accept it, as you did in your OP. I honestly had to rationalize the worst parts as self-parody.
 
It's fairly simple. The guy can't write and just got lucky with MGS2. Trying to bring credence to its events shows this. Every MGS game after that was a disaster of storytelling.
 
This is the same canon that includes the story of Metal Gear Rising as part of it.

I mean, who even cares at this point?
 
Inorigo said:
I don't care about the canon. The issue is the hamfisted-as-hell tonal shift. Kojima isn't Kat Bigelow, but he seems to think he is and I'm worried that's going to make MGSV incredibly gross and detestable.

That's what GZ has set up.
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This. Child soldiers and Kojima. Yeah, I'm scared.

And yes, before anyone says, I know child soldiers have been in the series before but as has been said there is a shift happening and we certainly didn't have
a character get raped by another child and then implanted with a bomb in her womb before exploding
, before did we?
 
To be honest, I'm not too worried about the story of TPP. Whatever they do, I'm sure it will be enjoyable. Unless they manage to make something similar to MGS4, but I doubt it (I'd like to think Kojima learned that lesson)

What I really want, though, is lots and lots of crazy and/or silly stuff. They don't even have to include it in the main story, putting them in optional conversations and side-ops would be enough for me. Peace Walker was really great in that regard. I guess I really love the crazy side of MGS.
 
I don't know what I could tell you other than to judge these games on a "case-by-case" (or game-by-game) basis, OP! The tone of each game vastly differs from one to the next. Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker, for example, was made for teenagers to play on the go and urged the player to progress through base building, side missions, and things of that nature. This series began almost thirty years ago. There's no way that, in 1987, Kojima could have expected this series to be around and possibly more popular than ever, today. At the end of the day, these are video games; they aren't books, movies -- they can still reach out to the player in ways that other mediums cannot, and that is through gameplay, which should always come first. So, I disagree when you say that Metal Gear canon will "ruin" The Phantom Pain (maybe it will ruin your experience with accepting the game's narrative, however).
Also, I feel the complete opposite and feel that the Metal Gear canon is just fine (especially considering that the story has been created as these games come along), but that is of course, just my opinion.
I totally understand where you're coming from and I do appreciate your concerns, I just happen to not agree with them. Kojima said in an interview with Game Informer that Big Boss' conflict with Zero will be portrayed in The Phantom Pain, but it won't necessarily be at the forefront of the game's story, so what I take away from that is that he's looking to sort of back away from all of that and tell a new story. We all approach things differently, for sure, so I guess all I can really do is share with you how I enjoy the series and that is to accept each game as its own entity and, while retaining the memories of those past games (good or bad), not let it affect how you approach a new one. It's been four years since the last Metal Gear was released -- that is a long time, in this industry, to adapt and grow as a game developer and story-teller. Kojima's upcoming game seems to be completely different from anything he's done before, so my recommendation would be to try and give it a chance and not go into it with (what you feel is) the series' baggage lingering in the back of your mind.

Hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't.
 
TBH

i dont think its completely the Punch of the Story that makes the game most notoriously known for its great story telling.

i think its the way they deliver it, they have perfect execution doesn't matter how cheesy it is,

Plus Great Character Development and Expansive lore (Even if it contradicts itself with small holes sometimes lol)

Basically DELIVERY!!!!

Thats what makes it so compelling.
 
I'm a big MGS fan since MGS1... but PW, GZ and TPP does nothing for me compared to the MGS1-4 saga... I don't really know why.

Weird.
 
AHA-Lambda said:
And yes, before anyone says, I know child soldiers have been in the series before but as has been said there is a shift happening and we certainly didn't have
a character get raped by another child and then implanted with a bomb in her womb before exploding
, before did we?
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Yet he handles GZ and it's subject matter really well, I think. That closing cut scene was heart stopping.
 
The tonal shift is jarring, but I've never been one to put much stock in how the games interconnect. I can't really even sit through the previous games' cutscenes more than once, and while they add some drive going forward and context for events, I'm not one to get miffed with the handwaving that goes into justifying inconsistencies or retcons. We're 8 or 9 main entries into this series, it's a mess if you want it to hold up all together.
 
Tuck said:
Thats terrible advice.
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Especially when the games are so damn fun to play.

As for the OP's point, I don't really care much for the overall canon. As long as the general gist of everything is there, it's fine.

But even then, I only really care about Big Boss' story from MGS3-TPP.

And isn't MGR part of the whole lore? lol. I don't think it means much, for me, as long as it delivers in-the-moment, story-wise, I'll be okay. The MG games' stories are fun to get into while playing.
 
I basically just read the first 2 sentences of each paragraph, realized what you were saying was horribly wrong and laughed. How could you be so utterly wrong about everything metal gear related? Astounding.
 
Moon_frogger said:
I basically just read the first 2 sentences of each paragraph, realized what you were saying was horribly wrong and laughed. How could you be so utterly wrong about everything metal gets related? Astounding.
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Pretty much this, I can't even be assed to write out what's wrong and why, it's just not worth it.
 
Morphine_OD said:
OP's post is half conjecture and half fan fiction.
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Moon_frogger said:
I basically just read the first 2 sentences of each paragraph, realized what you were saying was horribly wrong and laughed. How could you be so utterly wrong about everything metal gear related? Astounding.
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Alright then, I'll bite.

How about instead of going "lol wrong, tl;dr, fan fic lol" you explain what you think is wrong about what I posted?

Or is that just too much work?

Edit:
I can't even be assed to write out what's wrong and why, it's just not worth it.
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Well ok then, thanks for the input.
 
I'm sorry man, I can't. Your post is way too long and way to filled with opinions I just can't understand for me to do a point by point deconstruction of what's all wrong about it. I'm puzzled by your enthusiasm, because it seems to me you just don't like metal gear very much. You're so torn up about what the series should be and seem dissapointed that it isn't what you want It to be. I mean, seriously you think it'd be better without the humor and 4th wall stuff? Wow. Have you played splinter cell?
 
Well that's certainly one way to look at it.

The events in V are going to better contextualize Big Boss as a villainous figure. The role he has played for the majority of the series, if Kojima gets it right (lets face it, he will.) this will actually improve the characterization in all the other games.

Especially the ending of 4.

It's easy to get too hung up on the canon. Since when is a precise unflinching, exact understanding of the narrative a requirement to enjoy a good story?

Think of the history of Metal Gear as a reconstruction from classified documents, verbal accounts, intelligence reports and misinformation. You'll spend all that energy being worried and confused on getting hyped instead, it's a good time I recommend it.
 
I never ever could have said it better. Really great read, kojima should have started a new game in a new universe. Kojima is basically shackled by his own silly work, how could he choose PW to be a cannon is beyond me, everything about it is awful.
 
Moon_frogger said:
I'm sorry man, I can't. Your post is way too long and way to filled with opinions I just can't understand for me to do a point by point deconstruction of what's all wrong about it. I'm puzzled by your enthusiasm, because it seems to me you just don't like metal gear very much. You're so torn up about what the series should be and seem dissapointed that it isn't what you want It to be. I mean, seriously you think it'd be better without the humor and 4th wall stuff? Wow. Have you played splinter cell?
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What? Making a post about my own personal insight on a game series!? How could I do such a thing?

I very much like Metal Gear, in fact I would say I'm a fanboy considering how much time I spend attempting to deconstruct my top five favorite game, MGS2. While I absolutely loath MGS4 and don't care for Peace Walker, overall I enjoy the series even with it's major flaws.

Just because I wanted a serious game to cover the topic of Big Boss and his decent, doesn't mean I don't enjoy the campy fourth wall breaking stuff of the series. Why do you think I played MGS 1-4?

I guess if you took three minutes to read the post, you would know my problem is with this attempt to make a serious game that is going to completely conflict with the tone from the previous game and the canon left behind from MGS4.

Betty said:
Quick tip, add a concise TL;DR part to the bottom of a long OP in future. I mean what you wrote was good, but not everyone's going to have the patience to read it all.
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Yea, I should have done so. Don't know why I didn't, will add one.
 
I respectfully disagree. If anything ruins MGSV, it will be its desire to "push the boundaries" and be "edgy" and "controversial". The established canon is what will fuel Phantom Pain and the main reason I am looking forward to it.
 
Holykael1 said:
I'd say this post is dumb. Way to dismiss decades of work without providing convincing arguments.
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I'm not saying it's wrong to enjoy the games, I do. But I read interviews with Kojima where he talks like he thinks he is tackling these big themes in a mature way but the series features stuff like vagina bombs (having not played Ground Zeroes I only just found out about that from this thread) so expecting it to be this serious treatment of sensitive subjects seems unlikely.
 
Wtf is metal gear canon? Hasn't almost every game been butchered and retconned? I enjoy them all the same though.
 
Lol this forum. A guy makes an elaborate post and I'm sure he did so because he wants to discuss his opinion(s). All he gets is mostly one liners saying that he is totally wrong, but they can't say why because they didn't read it, and the justification for that is that he's wrong. Or so.
 
I forgot to mention that I disagree with the OP's sentiment in regards to the upcoming Phantom Pain. I think GZ handled it's subject matter tactfully and I always took Metal Gear pretty seriously, I don't find the change in tone to be all that jarring.

OP's opinion is certainly valid and perfectly understandable but it's one I don't fully agree with.
 
I agree with the people saying each game should basically be taken by itself. Kojima made each of the games with no intention of directing another one himself.

The only reason Kojima made a sequel to the original MSX game is because the Snake's Revenge team asked him to. I think he even originally intended for MGS1 to be his last Metal Gear, or that at the very least he didn't want to do MGS2 as soon as he did.

Honestly, the way the franchise is put together doesn't stop me from loving MGS3's gameplay, plot, and characters on its own.

A big part of the problem is that a lot of people took MGS1 deadly serious back in 1998 because it felt much more mature, sophisticated, and plausible than most console action games that were around at the time. In terms of narrative Metal Gear really isn't that different from a manga or even a mainstream American comic book.
 
TheLostBigBoss said:
What? Making a post about my own personal insight on a game series!? How could I do such a thing?
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You only bolded part of a sentence and then replied as if that was the whole sentence, like it didn't completely change the meaning of my post. At least I didn't do that to you! lol. I didn't say I object to you having an opinion....I said you have an opinion I don't agree with. Kind of different. Anyway, you're entitled to it, I'm just saying I pretty much disagree with everything you said. Especially the parts about metal gear needing to ditch the humor and mgs2 being the best game. It doesn't even best 3 in the story department, if you ask me.
 
Betty said:
I get what you're saying, but I found myself easily getting involved with Phantom Pain and embracing the darker elements despite the fact Peace Walker had such a lighter tone.

So I don't think it'll be such a big deal, for some there may be a transitional period but in time I think we'll all just get used to the more serious tone and roll with it.

And hey, at least it'll be entertaining, especially since Phantom Pain seems to bee going the more emotional, focused storyline route of MGS1 + 2 rather than the existential, meta commentary of 3 and 4.
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I'm excited, but I just can't get the stupid shit from Peace Walker/MGS4 out of my head. Every time someone mentions Cipher I have a flashback to MGS4, knowing that they are still trying to connect that story to Big Boss's original story. But we will see how they handle things, I hope they limit the connections just so I can prevent my mind from going to the insane places of the past story.

Phantom Pain seems to bee going the more emotional, focused storyline route of MGS1 + 2 rather than the existential, meta commentary of 3 and 4.
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I agree, although I would argue that MGS 1/3 is more of the focused emotional story route, and MGS 2/4 are existential meta.
 
Great post. I would say though that a lot of the history know from the events that will take place in The Phantom Pain are based on what individual characters with their own agendas or leanings have told us.
 
I think the OP put more thought into his crtitique than Kojima has into the ddvelopment of anything resembling a coherent narrative in any of his games.
 
Why would the Phantom Pain be the tipping point for the series as in "gone too far"? I see Phantom Pain as absolutely necessary to the story. What/How/Why did Big Boss become the villain by time frame of Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 from when he was the protagonist in MGS3 to MGSV Ground Zeroes? How does Kaz and Big Boss have the falling out of their business relationship? Outer Heaven is a big deal plot wise in the MGS universe, I feel that it should get a fair bit of treatment in the story in TPP.

Not only will TPP has promise to be the best game gameplay wise, but it'll answer a ton of questions that I want to know. (Also the MGS3 & PW era of MGS is my favorite time frame in the whole saga, so this looks incredibly promising).
 
Betty said:
I get what you're saying, but I found myself easily getting involved with Phantom Pain and embracing the darker elements despite the fact Peace Walker had such a lighter tone.

So I don't think it'll be such a big deal, for some there may be a transitional period but in time I think we'll all just get used to the more serious tone and roll with it.

And hey, at least it'll be entertaining, especially since Phantom Pain seems to bee going the more emotional, focused storyline route of MGS1 + 2 rather than the existential, meta commentary of 3 and 4.
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This, I agree with.

Mentioning goofy things like fucking Paz and Miller in Side-Ops shouldn't matter. I get that it may mess with your perception of these characters, but just take PW for what it was; a fun little portable story. I'm finding it easy to get into GZ & TPP's serious tone, despite PW.

I agree though, MGS4 messed up too much that was established with MGS 2+3. MGS4 was a great game, but when you look at what it did to the story as a whole, it's disappointing.
 
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