-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Metal Gear canon will ruin The Phantom Pain
- Thread starter TheLostBigBoss
- Start date
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Phantom Pain seems like a necessary bandage in the wake of MGS4. There was too much of a gap between MGS3 and the Solid Snake games with regards to the Patriots. Yes it will retread the 'Big Boss creates an army' ground we have annoyingly already covered in Portable Ops and especially Peace Walker but being set in the 80s it's much closer to the actual events of Outer Heaven/Zanzibar not to mention Ocelot is finally a main character. Phantom Pain may very well retroactively make elements of MGS4 easier to digest. Or it may complicate things further, who knows.
I thought MGS2's story was pretty smart *shrugs*
It tells the story not just through cutscenes but in the gameplay itself and even transcending the game to player expectations. Some people might look at that as a gimmick but I thought it was cool.
I thought MGS2's story was pretty smart *shrugs*
It tells the story not just through cutscenes but in the gameplay itself and even transcending the game to player expectations. Some people might look at that as a gimmick but I thought it was cool.
Fancy Clown
Member
I think the tone inconstancy is completely consistent with the lunacy of the series.
Don't get too worked up about things fitting neatly with each other, and just enjoy the story Kojima wants to tell.
Don't get too worked up about things fitting neatly with each other, and just enjoy the story Kojima wants to tell.
Fancy Clown
Member
No, he tells smart stories in a dumb way, which is, oddly enough, kind of smart.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Love Deterrence
Member
Excactly! all of that!
DCDW
Member
Kojima's boner for MGS 3 completely fucked MGS 4. Half the plot elements/reveals in MGS4 had MGS3 crow barred into it. When they wheeled out the leader/founder of the Patriots, I couldn't help but roll my eyes. A lot of elements in MGS 2 were seemingly forgotten or just never touched upon in MGS 4 (The Metal Gear Rex schematics being sold on the black market and being produced by many different armies, which prompted the creation of Metal Gear Ray which was dubbed the "Anti-Metal Gear").
The deflection/dampening field (used by Fortune and Ocelot) was never used at all in MGS 4, which isn't a big deal, but it could have made an appearance. The big reveal about the Rat-Patrol at the end was the most obvious fucking thing having played MGS 2 (The whole La-Li-Le-Lo bit being the Patriots being capable of censoring their names being heard) and them being the ONLY ones in MGS 4 who when hearing something about the Patriots, Merryl says "oh, the La-Li-Le-Lo?", biggest give away right there.
The deflection/dampening field (used by Fortune and Ocelot) was never used at all in MGS 4, which isn't a big deal, but it could have made an appearance. The big reveal about the Rat-Patrol at the end was the most obvious fucking thing having played MGS 2 (The whole La-Li-Le-Lo bit being the Patriots being capable of censoring their names being heard) and them being the ONLY ones in MGS 4 who when hearing something about the Patriots, Merryl says "oh, the La-Li-Le-Lo?", biggest give away right there.
Sorry OP, but I can't believe you are taking the story seriously at this point. For me, the series died after MGS3. MGS4 and what follows are some serious steaming piles of shit, sadly. MGRR is an exception because it is an over the top crazy hack and slash, and the story is dumb as all hell and should not be taken seriously.
Also IMO, people are looking too deep into MGS2's story. What it really is, is a game that tells you it is a game. I remember at the time Kojima was mentioning in interviews that he was deeply inspired by the matrix. Imagine Raiden being the player's avatar and you are neo doing all the crazy stuff in the matrix. I loved how the game even flat tells you that you have played too long and need to close the system. It also comments on how people will take what the game throws at them without even thinking it is a game.
Plus, Raiden was always meant to be there to appeal to japanese school girls. I have a very hard time imagining this was all done on purpose to fool people's expectation for the whole meta commentary thing. He was simply hidden because if was shown, it may have had a serious affect on the game's sales.
Bottom line is, I think that people should move on and try to forget MGS even had a story line, because it is utterly ruined at this point sadly.
Also IMO, people are looking too deep into MGS2's story. What it really is, is a game that tells you it is a game. I remember at the time Kojima was mentioning in interviews that he was deeply inspired by the matrix. Imagine Raiden being the player's avatar and you are neo doing all the crazy stuff in the matrix. I loved how the game even flat tells you that you have played too long and need to close the system. It also comments on how people will take what the game throws at them without even thinking it is a game.
Plus, Raiden was always meant to be there to appeal to japanese school girls. I have a very hard time imagining this was all done on purpose to fool people's expectation for the whole meta commentary thing. He was simply hidden because if was shown, it may have had a serious affect on the game's sales.
Bottom line is, I think that people should move on and try to forget MGS even had a story line, because it is utterly ruined at this point sadly.
Oh wow, this post is hilarious. But wait, it was all part of the "plan" or something.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
You kind of just got to streamline all the story elements in the games tbh
Fancy Clown
Member
SparksterMeta0
Member
The only thing I can remember is La Le Li La Lo.
jk but still
Seems weird to blame all this on MGS3, when both it and MGS4 were a response to the ridiculous (and impossible to resolve) conspiracy theorizing of MGS2.
I know MGS2 has a good reputation around this forum, but if you really want to pinpoint where the canon "got fucked," you have to at least consider the possibility that the all powerful Illuminati Patriots bullshit got started there, and sent the series down a dark path if they ever wanted to conclude it.
I did not bother reading the post OP but I think what you're are saying is you fear of TPP direction, I do too. IMO GZ is the worse MGS game and not really a good game at all. Very average and everything I loved about MGS is missing. No good codec and conversation pieces, no good sound effects, no easter eggs, no quirkiness, no interesting story/cut scenes, and all you do is escort people. Yes, I understand it's only a small snippet but main elements on what makes MGS a MGS game are missing and it's a preview on what's to come.
It's utterly ridiculous, insensitive, and completely unbelievable. Kojima's always written his fiction like a teenage military nut who reads too many comic books and it's always been charming.
The plot developments in GZ however sound like that kid is now an asshole in college who plays too much CoD and binge-watches re-runs of A 1000 Ways to Die.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
I think Metal Gear canon ruined Metal Gear canon 
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
That's not exactly what the OP is saying. Even if TPP had all those codec conversations, sound effects, easter eggs, quirkiness, and whatnot, his/her main gripe is with the fact that it must deal with a ton of story precedent set by MGS4, with MGS4 being needlessly derived from 2 which arguably stood better in it's own little meta context bubble rather than have everything taken literally.
Funny you mention that because Call of Duty: Kevin Spacey PMC edition feels more in line as a proper MGS game right now in terms of sci-fi goofiness + dramatic socioeconomic monologues compared to TPP. But we'll see, hopefully new trailer tomorrow.
PensivePen
Member
That's always come across to me as an excuse one tells to their publisher as a way to change your incredibly popular protagonist for a sequel. And the logic is completely counter-intuitive as well. "We're going to create this bishi character to appeal to Japanese schoolgirls. And then not show the character in any of our promotional material."
Yeah I don't agree with anything you said...
The first time I completed mgs2 I was like 8 or 9 so I basically took everything literally and had no sense of deeper meaning.
So for me it was nice having Kojima explain everything that ever happened, mgs4 was great for me.
The only thing I didn't like was the patriots being full AI by the end of the series. Would have been cooler for it be like a board of dudes.
It also would have been cooler if they just physically bring back liquid instead of having ocelot pretending to be him.
The first time I completed mgs2 I was like 8 or 9 so I basically took everything literally and had no sense of deeper meaning.
So for me it was nice having Kojima explain everything that ever happened, mgs4 was great for me.
The only thing I didn't like was the patriots being full AI by the end of the series. Would have been cooler for it be like a board of dudes.
It also would have been cooler if they just physically bring back liquid instead of having ocelot pretending to be him.
Sacrilege.
From Fox TWO phantoms are born
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Just a thought, maybe you should replay it with a more open mind, instead of only relying on your original interpretation when you were a little kid. The first time I played MGS2, I was in second grade, telling all my class mates about the story that I didn't even understand.
To everyone else who are saying "I'm looking too deep into MGS2", I think you're really discrediting something that you probably haven't really read much about. I know that sounds condescending as all hell, but here are two sources that I highly recommend if you think I'm spewing fanboy garbage.
The first link is more of a complete deconstruction of the meta-themes of MGS2, and the second link is more of a complete tear down of the VR theory, which I personally believe is the best way to view MGS2.
And if you don't want to have your view point challenged.
Yup, this is basically my view point and argument for MGS2 and MGS4.
peronmls
Member
I don't like stealth either. I hate it. Just got into the series and it too good to pass up. Buy the HD Collection and play in chronological order and you will not regret it.
That wouldn't be MGS. Kojima's shenanigans define the series as much as any other element of it.
I do agree that MGS2 was essentially a giant narrative mistake for a series that ended up continuing past it.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I should edit this part. I'm mainly talking about Big Boss's story at this current point, the final fall from grace and his turn from anti-hero to full on villain.
I love the campy/shenanigans of MGS 1/2/3, but the backstory of Big Boss is disgusting and horrible, and I feel it should be treated devoid of having shenanigans while kids are blown up and Big Boss finances his company off blood diamonds. (That last part is conjecture based off what I've read and theorized on Diamond Dogs)
I mean, Ground Zeros was completely devoid of the normal MGS wackiness, so I think we are at that point already. I'm getting my wish it seems, but my argument is that my wish has been tarnished from past games canon and the tone of the previous games.
To me, anything after MGS3 is not canon. The consistency of the series has been destroyed after that amazing game (MGS4 plot contradicted with MGS2 plot, PW is not consistent with PO, GZ is the dark sequel of the cartoonish PW... etc)
Come to think of it, I notice a drop in the plot's quality after Tomokazu Fukushima disappearance (
)
Anyhow, that's just me. And btw OP, your thread is amazing! subscribed
Come to think of it, I notice a drop in the plot's quality after Tomokazu Fukushima disappearance (
coincidentally, his last game was MGS3!
Anyhow, that's just me. And btw OP, your thread is amazing! subscribed
PensivePen
Member
People who brush off MGS2 as having any kind of deeper meaning to its plot are equally annoying as those who read way to into it. It's obvious by the way the end of the game is framed Kojima had something a little more than a direct story he was trying to tell.
As an aside the series' 'canon' was ruined by not being allowed to end.
As an aside the series' 'canon' was ruined by not being allowed to end.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
To me, anything after MGS3 is not canon. The consistency of the series has been destroyed after that amazing game (MGS4 plot contradicted with MGS2 plot, PW is not consistent with PO, GZ is the dark sequel of the cartoonish PW... etc)
Come to think of it, I notice a drop in the plot's quality after Tomokazu Fukushima disappearance ()coincidentally, his last game was MGS3!
Anyhow, that's just me. And btw OP, your thread is amazing! subscribed
This is actually what I have personally done in my own head. It was kinda successful, up until I played Peace Walker and Ground Zeros, where they are constantly mentioning Zero and Cipher.
But before that I just pretended that MGS2 was the end of Solid Snakes story, and he probably died in that tanker. I still think that, but that doesn't change that they are still forcing that shit into The Phantom Pain.
Fix The Scientist
Member
I enjoyed the stories in MGS1 and 3 respectively because they felt pretty self-contained, I was hoping the phantom pain would be similar but after playing GZ i'm expecting the story to be as shit as 2 and 4, possibly worse.
Chocoburger
Banned
I agree, he's gone down a rabbit hole that doesn't exist. I love me some Metaru Gia Soridu, and I just recently finished playing every single game in the series, including the GBC spin-off and Rising, but the stories are a mess especially when you try to connect them and so its important to take them at face value and not look to deep for something that really isn't there.
thesolidshark
Member
Given the rest of the series, that could be a big matter of perspective. In TPP's case, I don't think any major side we'll see (Diamond Dogs, XOF, Cipher) will be on the side of grace. I certainly don't expect Big Boss to become more villainous than Skullface, but I'm ok with being surprised there.
I hadn't even considered that; good theory.
I'm assuming you mean the main story and not the whole packaged game.
While I understand preferring self-contained stories, I'm still surprised at some efforts to write off some parts or full games within the franchise due to story connectivity. Maybe it's just how much I've played and replayed the series, but even MGS1 and 3, the games praised for being the most self-contained, have A LOT to do with the games before and after their releases, just like MGS 2, 4, PO, PW, etc. Maybe it's a matter of how it's presented, or how people like OP wanted the series to play out, but I guess it's more just me surprised that some things like that are so hard to swallow for other players/fans.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Main story mainly, but I do know that there are completely crazy side ops. But that is even more jarring in my opinion. However, it's something I can live with, as long as the side ops in The Phantom Pain are all within the tone of the main story to a degree.
I mean, Peace Walkers main story was crazy and not very serious, or at least it tried to be taken seriously and failed (At some points). It's side ops weren't too conflicting in tone with it's story, canon or not.
Basically, the tone and themes of The Phantom Pain and Ground Zeros are too extreme to include the usual shenanigans of MGS.
thesolidshark
Member
Does that include cardboard boxes and a possible (theorized, not confirmed) Johnny Sasaki cameo?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Not really, the box has always been part of the gameplay. However, it did seem like Kojima put it into the game after Ground Zeros and people outrage over it not being present.
If I had my way I would try to remove a lot of the "gamy" elements from The Phantom Pain. But that's just my personal tastes, and my issue really isn't with having gamy elements in TPP. So maybe Kojima had the same original idea of removing the gamy element of the box, but due to fans he put it back in. Who knows.
I personally found Ground Zeros stealth to be almost perfect. It was realistic and the only gamy (God I'm using that word a lot) element was the mark feature, which without makes the game impossible to play do to the rather realistic nature of the base and patrol layout. But I personally just view the mark as Big Boss's intuition and natural skill of being one of the best agents to live.
Johnny would be... a very young kid in this game. I don't think we would see him, and if we do see a Johnny it would probably be his father. I think MGS3 had the best example of the Johnny cameo, it wasn't out of place and it was a nice easter egg. So if they do that and keep it as a cameo than I wouldn't have an issue.
But if it actually is a kid Johnny, I would probably throw my controller at the TV while crying in my bed repressing the Meryl /Johnny shootout/proposal at the end of MGS4.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
What specifically offended you?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
In case anyone missed it, new Phantom Pain trailer was leaked.
Despite my heavy negativity in this thread, somehow this trailer has me hopeful and completely hyped.
I can't explain it, but maybe Kojima can pull it off.
Here is a link for direct download and mirror on youtube, which will probably be taken down any second now.
Despite my heavy negativity in this thread, somehow this trailer has me hopeful and completely hyped.
I can't explain it, but maybe Kojima can pull it off.
Here is a link for direct download and mirror on youtube, which will probably be taken down any second now.
Actually, kojima himself said raiden was made to appeal to japanese school girls in the documents of MGS2. Also, the ad campaign in Japan featured Gackt all the time, which is basically a very famous bishounen singer circa 2001.
Oh yeah, and Raiden was shown in the Japanese ad campaign, unlike the US one.
OP, please don't misunderstand what I said. I actually saw those two videos a long time ago, and MGS2 being a video game is what the VR theory is to some extent. The entire game is one gigantic VR because it is being experienced by you, the player.Just a thought, maybe you should replay it with a more open mind, instead of only relying on your original interpretation when you were a little kid. The first time I played MGS2, I was in second grade, telling all my class mates about the story that I didn't even understand.
To everyone else who are saying "I'm looking too deep into MGS2", I think you're really discrediting something that you probably haven't really read much about. I know that sounds condescending as all hell, but here are two sources that I highly recommend if you think I'm spewing fanboy garbage.
The first link is more of a complete deconstruction of the meta-themes of MGS2, and the second link is more of a complete tear down of the VR theory, which I personally believe is the best way to view MGS2.
And if you don't want to have your view point challenged.
Yup, this is basically my view point and argument for MGS2 and MGS4.
Also, I loved MGS2 since release unlike most people, and find it as a smart way to convey a story on how people take games too seriously without thinking about it (one of the main themes of the game). Only problem is that it has some dumb things here and there.
The point in my post was, is that you have to let go of the series. That's what I did after MGS4. At this point, everything set in the canon universe of MGS will simply ruin it due to a lot of dumb stuff here and there, and in turn, lessen the value of the first 3 games.
EDIT: thinking about it now, I find it interesting that my 12/13 year old self actually found the whole game telling it is fake interesting, but never thought it was the main theme of the game.
You do not need to go stealth.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Fortunes device was destroyed by Ocolot in the final scenes. She deflected those rockets without it.
And yes, the "official" explanation of Vamp's immortality was nanomachines, but that wasn't something I mentioned that was never explained in MGS4.
But my point still stands that the original plan was to have the player interpret their own ending and piece things together.
staticneuron
Member
I really view it as needlessly over-complicating things and in all honesty, the game is a good exercise in comprehension especially when tied to the other entries in the series.
MGS2 is split into 2. The tanker, which as straight forward as can be and then the BSI. The issue with the BSI is that to understand what happened you would have to reach the end first and piece together the story backwards (and codec conversations). The BSI was the patriots (AI) test on how to control an outcome providing the correct situation is presented. For that they needed the right subject. Raiden has been influenced and controlled by the patriots since he was younger, so the concept is that because external influences were controlled for the most part then the chances of predicting the outcome would be higher. The ending of MGS2 helped the Patriots (AI) to deduct a percentage of success which leads to the events and state of the world in MGS4.
What was awesomely pointed out here, was the fact that Raiden might have lost without the help of Snake, which means that any subtle variation in the scenario could make or break the desired outcome. And Ocelet demonstrates that with great success in MGS4. Granted it looks like he was thinking about and plotting this for years but it seems that the lack of human element in the patriots AI is what helped him out in the end.
Something that doesn't seem likely given the fact the game was broken into two parts and there is a shift of perspective. If that really was the case it would have been much easier for to make the entire game playable from Raidens perspective and leave the tanker sequence as a description/cutscene.
Edit:
I think you are misunderstandings Kojima's love for breaking the fourth wall as his intended story perspective to give to the player versus a nod and a wink. Given what he does in each game (including MGS1) it seems more likely that the elements of self awareness that he gives to his games are divorced from the central delivery of the storyline. Meaning..... no it is not important if PM finds out if you as a player enjoys castlevania, or whether or not you were able to find the key code on the outside of the game box.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
MGS2 is as close as a video game has ever come to being Art, as far as I'm concerned.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Which is funny, because I remember reading an interview where Kojima said he would never consider games to be art.