Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach

Lord Phol said:
That could be said for most games. There will always be those that take games to another level (like that guy who's played insane amounts of Bubsy, or speedrunners), but it doesn't mean that they are the main audience. I could go crazy hardcore for Mario Party 10 with a bunch of other people. Trying to make it into something competitive and after making up rules and finding out new ways to play the game, creating something mildly competitive. But I would never expect or get mad that Mario Party 11 didn't deliver that compeitive balanced gameplay that I and bunch of other people made Mario Party 10 into.

You kind of make it sound like (apologies if that's not what you meant) that being more hardcore gives you a better perspective on how the game should be designed. What it comes down to is that Smash has always been more of a party game than a competitive fighter. That's how Sakurai and team wants it to be and that's the game they are creating. They do however try to cater to that hardcore Final Destination fanbase as well but it's never been the focus.
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You mean that unbalanced stage?
 
After playing with Little Mac, I don't think his limited air mobility will be much of an issue considering all the characters are rather floaty and can cover decent horizontal space, not to mention his Side B gains him some distance as well.
 
Kouichi said:
The fact that the changes in jump momentum and landing lag affects one of the fundamental ways we play Smash competitively excites me greatly. One aspect I always love about each new iteration of Smash is how each game feels different from the next. All of them keep the fundamental features that make them Smash Bros. but they change a bunch of technical details that force us to approach each game in a different way. It sounds like Smash 4 is continuing this tradition, but is now making a change that affects a core aspect. That sounds very interesting and exciting.

I hear a lot of people mentioning how certain changes will 'improve' the game, but I think they're approaching it from the wrong point of view. It seems more like they're trying to deprive Smash 4 from having its own identity and instead trying to make it more like a past iteration (Melee as usual). It's less about improving the game and more about stopping it from changing and I can't agree with that. I prefer when fighting games strive to be their own game while keeping features that are fundamental in making the game what it is. (Street fighter 3 to Street Fighter 4)

Now I'm not saying that Smash should be devoid of criticism nor am I saying the new changes are good. I just think it's way too early to write off the game or say certain changes are bad just because they are different. It's best to wait on how the changes and additions will affect the overall meta-game and play style of Smash 4. In terms of gameplay, I've always enjoyed Melee the most, but I would never want a sequel to that or a new game that tries to replicate it. I want a new Smash Bros. Smash 4 deserves to have its own identity just like Melee.
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If this was an entirely new mechanic you may have had a point, but no air momentum was in Brawl and it has been identified as a problem. We know how this mechanic effects the game already.
 
Kouichi said:
The fact that the changes in jump momentum and landing lag affects one of the fundamental ways we play Smash competitively excites me greatly. One aspect I always love about each new iteration of Smash is how each game feels different from the next. All of them keep the fundamental features that make them Smash Bros. but they change a bunch of technical details that force us to approach each game in a different way. It sounds like Smash 4 is continuing this tradition, but is now making a change that affects a core aspect. That sounds very interesting and exciting.

I hear a lot of people mentioning how certain changes will 'improve' the game, but I think they're approaching it from the wrong point of view. It seems more like they're trying to deprive Smash 4 from having its own identity and instead trying to make it more like a past iteration (Melee as usual). It's less about improving the game and more about stopping it from changing and I can't agree with that. I prefer when fighting games strive to be their own game while keeping features that are fundamental in making the game what it is. (Street fighter 3 to Street Fighter 4)

Now I'm not saying that Smash should be devoid of criticism nor am I saying the new changes are good. I just think it's way too early to write off the game or say certain changes are bad just because they are different. It's best to wait on how the changes and additions will affect the overall meta-game and play style of Smash 4. In terms of gameplay, I've always enjoyed Melee the most, but I would never want a sequel to that or a new game that tries to replicate it. I want a new Smash Bros. Smash 4 deserves to have its own identity just like Melee.
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But what made melee an exciting game to play and watch was due to all those movement options allowing you to have all these different free-flowing combos based on the type of stage you're on, the percentage your enemy has and your reads about where they would DI. These movement options are parts of the fundamentals of what makes smash such a good series.

Smash 4 can have it's own identity and not be like melee, but when you remove the ability to have these combos from the game because you don't have these movement options, you don't end up with something that should 'excite you greatly' because you're just going to end up with a game that's boring to play and watch at a competitive level.

I don't see how anyone can have the opinion that allowing for combos in the game so that players can actually have any kind of style in their gameplay isn't about improving the game and more about stopping it from changing.
 
Lord Phol said:
That could be said for most games. There will always be those that take games to another level (like that guy who's played insane amounts of Bubsy, or speedrunners), but it doesn't mean that they are the main audience. I could go crazy hardcore for Mario Party 10 with a bunch of other people. Trying to make it into something competitive and after making up rules and finding out new ways to play the game, creating something mildly competitive. But I would never expect or get mad that Mario Party 11 didn't deliver that compeitive balanced gameplay that I and bunch of other people made Mario Party 10 into.

You kind of make it sound like (apologies if that's not what you meant) that being more hardcore gives you a better perspective on how the game should be designed. What it comes down to is that Smash has always been more of a party game than a competitive fighter. That's how Sakurai and team wants it to be and that's the game they are creating. They do however try to cater to that hardcore Final Destination fanbase as well but it's never been the focus.

I'm not against making smash into something that can be both fun and competitive, I just got my expectations on a level that fits with the design of the games.
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I was simply answering why they act that way. They care so much more and has been a bigger part of their lives for a longer time.
 
Layell said:
I'm sure I could put project m in the hands of a bunch of causals and they wouldn't even know the difference because they'd just spam pokeballs and assist trophies or whatever other items.

I would also like to point out how much of a mess brawl was, and I won't even mention anything about the actual player vs player.

1. Realistic art style on Wii for all the fighters was a really bad idea
2. Classic Mode feels gimped and uninspired
3. Break the targets is no longer character specific and doesn't challenge individual character skills as much
4. SSE rarely feels inspired.
5. Masterpieces were unnecessary bloat, along with the unnecessary game release timeline
6. Stage designs are unfocused (New Pork, Electroplankton) or recreations of old games that don't mesh well with smash gameplay (Mario Bros and 75m)
7. Some palette swaps are bad, Snakes/Olimar blue is hardly different than normal. All of Sonic and Lucario's palette swaps are shades of blue. Makes it harder to tell teams/players apart.
8. The brawl theme is literally everywhere in a soundtrack that would otherwise be fantastic. Gets grating with extended plays.
9. Transformations are notably slower (especially Zelda to Sheik when compared to Melee).
10. Random tripping, random trip percentages on moves, randomly having moves take more frames when the game feels like it.
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9. is the Wii's shitty disk drive, not a fault of the game. Play the game off HDD and transformations take about as long as in Melee again. Play on Dolphin and transformations are instantly.
 
Lord Phol said:
I've seen this behaviour in plenty of others thread not just smash or even video game related, it really fucking annoys me how people can be so egoistic and self entitled. And before everyone jumps my bone I'm not saying the game is perfect or can't be improved. I'm not saying the team can't take constructive feedback and make something good out of it. But I don't think it's fair to go all fucktard for brains mode just because it doesn't turn out they way YOU have imagined it.
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After reading this from smashboards and Sakurai's comment on game design at the Roundtable, it's not looking good for people who want Smash 4 to be competitive:

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-with-the-genius-behind-super-smash-bro-530744390

Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancingSmash Bros.?

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people.We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people.
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The Smash Invitational was just that, a tournament for a wide audience to enjoy the game.

The most hype moments were in the free-for-all matches especially during Mega Man's FS.

However the grand finals without items was the most boring segment to watch.

I feel that's only going to encourage Sakurai's choice on how to develop the next Smash entry instead of taking feedback to make such a grand finals exciting for the audience.

The problem though is his belief that they have to target that small segment of players who enjoy the game competitively when Melee was the opposite.
Both casuals and competitve players loved the game for years after release.
 
Revven said:
Zer0's experience at E3 and the Invitational

Everyone should absolutely give this a read.
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Yep, was about to post this. Please everyone being worried about Smash 4 movements should read this. It's all good, guys! All from the scarf guy who won the Smash Invitational. Here's what he said about the game as a whole:

...Smash Wii U is very different from Brawl, and quite different from Melee. Why? Because this is a whole new Smash game. This game encourages a whole new set of option coverage, decision making, combos, and direction. It takes a different set of skills to be proficient at. It maintains the Smash mechanics we're all used to, but with different ways to go about them. Movement options are a bit faster than Brawl, but slower in other areas. It's just different, but overall, I love the feel it gave me. It feels REALLY good! If you asked me if you should get this game, I'd simply tell you: Go, now. Go get a Wii U and pre order/get this game ASAP. I really like Smash Wii U - I'll play and stream it as much as possible when it comes out. Both versions! Make sure to tune in when that happens, I cannot wait!
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AdanVC said:
Yep, was about to post this. Please everyone being worried about Smash 4 movements should read this. It's all good, guys! All from the scarf guy who won the Smash Invitational: Here's what he said about the game as a whole:
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Zero is primarily a Brawl player to begin with though, so that's something to keep in mind.
 
Jock_Nerd said:
Box arts revealed. Smash if old.

image_321630_620.jpg


image_321578_620.jpg
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Very old. They were revealed like half an hour after the Digital Event XD

*Black Hole....MEGA LAZ0R*
 
AdanVC said:
Yep, was about to post this. Please everyone being worried about Smash 4 movements should read this. It's all good, guys! All from the scarf guy who won the Smash Invitational. Here's what he said about the game as a whole:
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Zer0 is a brawl player, the game being at least better than brawl is already something everyone has agreed on. It's just the fact that it's missing a few other things that could make it truly great.
 
I'd like to see more focus Villager, because he seems like such an interesting character (and, I admit, because I'm a big Animal Crossing fan.) From everything I've heard, it sounds like Villager is really down on power: weak FS, the Lloid Rocket doesn't seem to do much damage, weak smash attacks (his up smash looks pretty good, though,) weak aerials, and he seems pretty light. But he has the Pocket, which seems to be able to pick up almost anything and store it for later. I saw him Pocket a hammer and then pull it out a few seconds already swinging later as if he had picked it up off the ground, we've seen him Pocket a Blue Shell, and the guys on the Treehouse said he can Pocket healing items and use them whenever he needs them. He's also got Timber, a powerful move which takes a lot of planning as it's a three-step move, and the tree wilts within ten seconds.

All this points to Villager being a very cerebral character, one who requires a lot of cunning to use effectively. I think his strategy will turn on effective coordination of Pocket and Timber - holding a useful item or projectile in the Pocket until the perfect moment to get someone hung up by the tree. Depending on how long his down smash keeps people buried, that could be essential, too.

Because of his Pocket, I bet Villager will be much more effective when items are in play and against characters who have projectiles. I can see him doing well in FFA, too, because it'll be easier to get opportunistic Timber kills. I'm not sure what he'll be able to do against someone like Little Mac in a 1v1 with no items. Villager confirmed for bottom tier.
 
Popnbake said:
After reading this from smashboards and Sakurai's comment on game design at the Roundtable, it's not looking good for people who want Smash 4 to be competitive:

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-with-the-genius-behind-super-smash-bro-530744390


The problem though is his belief that they have to target that small segment of players who enjoy the game competitively when Melee was the opposite.
Both casuals and competitve players loved the game for years after release.
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God, it hurts me to hear that perspective. You can be both, Melee was both.
 
Diddy Kong said:
Word on the street (Smashboards) is that Chunky Kong is an AT? Do we have any proof?
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My knowledge from about 5h ago: Random poster on smashboards has supposedly gotten him during BestBuy demo, no video or photo proof to back his story up. No one else has gotten Chunky Kong anywhere yet.

Not convincing me tbh
 
Revven said:
Stale moves negation is likely what's going on here for both of these things. Remember in Brawl that using a move even once reduces its knockback significantly. I wouldn't be surprised if they barely changed this in Smash 4. It's a shitty mechanic, stale moves should only happen for damage (meaning attacks should only weaken in damage, not knockback, after one or more use)
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Aahhh, I remember this. I didn't take Brawl as seriously as Melee because I was dissapointed in so many of the changes, so I never cared to look into the changes deeply.

I agree that is a bad descision for competetives and casuals. Didn't the items have some shitty algorithm attached to them as well? Everything was just terrible, I literally only enjoyed brawl during drunk free for alls with my mates.
 
Diddy Kong said:
Word on the street (Smashboards) is that Chunky Kong is an AT? Do we have any proof?
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I'm lending on it being fake since I got like 6 people reported that Magnus is in the game, but only one for Chunky Kong so I found it somewhat weird. I think he's trying to troll R. Rool fan bases.
 
IntelliHeath said:
I'm lending on it being fake since I got like 6 people reported that Magnus is in the game, but only one for Chunky Kong so I found it somewhat weird. I think he trying to troll R. Rool fan bases.
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Yeah, it doesn't help that the only place it was posted was in the "K Rool for Smash" thread
 
I forgive Sakurai's bland pose for Samus's main character art because of her badass poses on the boxarts. The Wii U one is such a simple and effective fix, too!
 
Lord Phol said:
Disclaimer this is not directed towards you or every competitive smasher, just the disrespectful narrow minded idiots in the bunch. If you're not one of them then this is not directed towards you.

What I don't get it how people can be so upset and feel so entitled when a game doesn't turn out the way THEY want it to even if that's never been the focus of the game from that start. Smash has never tried to compete with the likes of street fighter, it's never been about final destination with no items only. It's the competitive community that's tried shaping it into that. I'm fine with people enjoying the game however they want but when they start acting all douchy and childish about it that's when I think they can just go fuck themselves.

I think Sakurai, Nintendo and the whole Smash team has been plenty nice to the competitive community with this game so far. There's no more tripping, it's faster, you got a whole mode made just for you guys with almost EVERY level having a final destination alternative. They invited some of the most respected people in smash competitive communty for a tournament and to listen to some of their feedback.

I just fricking annoys me how people can be so narrowed minded and entitled just because things aren't going the way THEY want it. Tough luck, play your Project M, melee or a real fighter if that is what you're looking for. Smash has never aimed to be that so I don't get how you can be so mad that it's not.

I've seen this behaviour in plenty of others thread not just smash or even video game related, it really fucking annoys me how people can be so egoistic and self entitled. And before everyone jumps my bone I'm not saying the game is perfect or can't be improved. I'm not saying the team can't take constructive feedback and make something good out of it. But I don't think it's fair to go all fucktard for brains mode just because it doesn't turn out they way YOU have imagined it.
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Well said, thank you. I logged into smashboards the other day and was shocked at how venomous people are about Sakurai and a game that won't come out for another half year. I personally love that each Smash is different, Melee was great, but let Melee be Melee.
 
Interesting stuff. prog is taking questions on his ask.fm and he was asked about if Nintendo is interested in bridging the gap with comp. Smash from here on. Quote below

Who knows? I spoke with a couple of reps, they follow the scene, are fans of it all, one even mentioned donating to the EVO drive and getting his friend to do the same. Something in my bones tells me this is the start of something beautiful.
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http://ask.fm/askprog/answer/114755102573

That's crazy to know some donated to the EVO drive! I wonder if that's how the reversal of their decision last year came about so quickly, because some of the people at Nintendo actually knew about it? Either way, cool answer, I thought. Kind of makes me rest a little more easy.
 
Not sure how I feel about Chrom being put in and Shulk if the leaks are correct... Don't we have enough sword wielding peeps already?

Maybe one or the other, but just from pure aesthetics Ike, Marth, Shulk, Chrom seems like overkill

Obviously I don't know how Chrom/Shulk would play, but at least with Ike and Marth we had a distinct power vs. speed motif going on, and I'm not sure where Chrom or Shulk would be categorized under..

Granted I haven't played any of the xenoblade games with Shulk so I'm not entirely sure what kind of character he could be, (Magic Sword wielding badass? Sword throwing melee/range madness?) so maybe someone could shed light on that? But definitely Chrom seems to be an Ike clone

EDIT: I mean I'd love all of them to be put in honestly, I just hope no one else that could be different/unique were cut in place of one of these
 
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