Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5
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Beelzebufo
Banned
Mii is confirmed to take one spot by a Nintendo rep at E3.
Anyway, do we even want the Ice Climbers back with these new grab mechanics? I feel like they're going to be really terrible.
They said on the treehouse stream Mii is 1
I think I mentioned it before but the Smash roster will be complete for me personally when we get a Fire Emblem character that embodies more than just the lord with a European based sword fighting style archetype, Takamaru & Lip (seriously, how come we don't have a fighter with puzzle game mechanics yet). I've kinda resigned myself to the belief that Mike Jones is a relic that won't be revisted and Smash 4's roster already has my previous mains (Marth, Fox, Pit) all accounted for. What's more, we got Megaman, Palutena, Rosalina and Greninja, so specific play styles are also represented here as well.
Smash could do with a few more villains and women going forward but Smash 4 has done a good job making progress with the latter.
But all of his options have been taken away from him.
Dash dancing isn't in the game, increased aerial lag means little to no combo game, increased knockback on throws means he doesn't have any throw followups, dancing blade no longer being cancellable takes away options from him, no crouch cancelled dashing is also bad for him and from a few accounts I've heard the tip of his blade is weakened as well.
Meanwhile his counter which is an easily punishable move has been buffed, great.
Marth is going to be a bad character in his current state (it could hopefully still change) based on what options he has available to him, we've played enough smash by now to all of this.
I want ice climbers back but they're definitely going to need some heavy changes to be relevant, a grab-based character in a game where grabs are globally nerfed isn't a good recipe for success.
We would know it anyway due to the early Japan release, just like last time. And Ridleys in as a boss
Dammit I thought they we're going for something close to a WW release, since they did it for Mario Kart and 3D World, it will be a long wait from September 13th to October 3rd.
At this point all I really want is Anna. I think I wouldn't really care how the roster looked after that. Palutena was basically my only other major want, after all. Takamaru would be neat, if only because Lyn's clearly not getting represented any time soon.
I'd love to see Kumatora besides that, but I don't expect much. I'd much rather see her over Lucas, at least.
I'd love to see Kumatora besides that, but I don't expect much. I'd much rather see her over Lucas, at least.
Who gives a shit? They are a unique character.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I'd hope that if we needed a puzzle character, we'd get someone like Mallo waaayyyy before Lip. I always took Lip's Stick as Sakurai saying "This is all she's gonna get". I also just hate her design lol.
Takamaru would be cool though. I think Sakurai's just waiting for a major firemblem game to come out again where the character on the box doesn't use a sword.
A unique character that is in all likelihood borderline unusable. It'll be sad to see.
SenorArdilla
Member
DLC is being greedy? It depends on the context. If a character was never going to make it in due to time constraints, then greed is good. Imagine if we got DLC in Brawl for Mewtwo or Roy. Or patches to iron out bugs.
How much do we know about the grab mechanics of the final build? It's like saying Mewtwo shouldn't come back because he was terrible in Melee (at least until Taj killed the competitive scene for a while, then he was boosted to mid tier).
How much do we know about the grab mechanics of the final build? It's like saying Mewtwo shouldn't come back because he was terrible in Melee (at least until Taj killed the competitive scene for a while, then he was boosted to mid tier).
Wasn't Sakurai against patches?
Beelzebufo
Banned
Isn't the opposite of that? Mewtwo was bad before, Brawl could have made him better. Ice Climbers were great before, but if grabs stay impossible to follow up on...
I can't imagine he'd be against patches if he's fine with DLC.
Not75Drops
Member
Remembering how people hated R.O.B and WFT when they were first revealed, were the reactions similar to Mr. Game & Watch?
SliceSabre
Banned
There's a large difference between bug patches and constant balance patches that change the way characters play every few weeks.
You're seriously overestimating the scope of what a balance patch encompasses. It doesn't completely change the way you play Pikachu if thunder jolt does 1% less damage and 10% less knockback, and chances are a casual player wouldn't recognize it thanks to how dynamic damage percentage and knockback already is in the game. It'd be tweaks to characters, not Project M style recreations of them.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Okay? I'm sure we'd get patches of some kind if we got DLC. DLC in itself is basically a patch.
AcademicSaucer
Member
at this point, i only want captain falcon and ness back, anything else is a bonus
But still Sakurai seems to not care about the competitive state of the game, it makes no sense that he would care to balance characters for competitive play through patches.
I think he's under the impression that competitive players would complain about the move being overpowered so the devs remove it and replace it with a terrible move.
Because that happens all the time in fighting games, right?
Maybe namco would take care of balance patching post-release, you never know what they might have planned.
He probably won't balance for competitive play, no. But they could have reacted to something like Meta Knight getting so out of control in every aspect of the game had they been able to patch Brawl. Balance affects everything, not just the upper ceiling of play.
RomanceDawn
Member
Found this on Smash Boards. While we know this isn't anywhere near the final version of the game. The Nintendo reps seem to have been playing the different builds and know the differences concerning characters.
"I'm using Mario right now, but I'm not... In this build... ehhh..." At 24:03.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edCQDRuL8Dk&list=PL2JiZAV5BmDWcPKIfaeijxnxFU7iT-dX4#t=1443
"I'm using Mario right now, but I'm not... In this build... ehhh..." At 24:03.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edCQDRuL8Dk&list=PL2JiZAV5BmDWcPKIfaeijxnxFU7iT-dX4#t=1443
SliceSabre
Banned
Happens in League of Legends all the time and the changes are noticeble to the casuals in that game. They don't replace the move with another though. They change the parameters though the move in and off itself is the same.
Also a game being balanced doesn't make it inaccessible to casual players.
Game are made inaccessible by having an input barrier that's too high, it's why adding stuff like L-cancelling and wavedashing would be horrible for the casual side of smash, but dash dancing, momentum conservation and reduced landing lag can be appreciated at all levels (or they might not even notice it at all), because they don't require the player to do anything extra.
This is the main misunderstanding a lot of you people have, that the people asking for it to be more competitively viable are asking it to be more like melee in terms of inaccessibility.
League of legends is a pretty terrible game though, I wouldn't look to it for balance at all with the way they handle things.
Game are made inaccessible by having an input barrier that's too high, it's why adding stuff like L-cancelling and wavedashing would be horrible for the casual side of smash, but dash dancing, momentum conservation and reduced landing lag can be appreciated at all levels (or they might not even notice it at all), because they don't require the player to do anything extra.
This is the main misunderstanding a lot of you people have, that the people asking for it to be more competitively viable are asking it to be more like melee in terms of inaccessibility.
League of legends is a pretty terrible game though, I wouldn't look to it for balance at all with the way they handle things.
SenorArdilla
Member
Probably just a "Who the hell is Game & Watch?" and left it at that since he's usually the last character to be unlocked.
I actually owned several game & watches as a kid and seeing him appear in melee was the most amazing thing to me at the time.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I wouldn't get too worried if only because Smash Bros isn't League of Legends.
Smash isn't league of legends which is built upon the premise that it is an ever changing game that constantly updates with new characters and items.
If we're going to compare balance patches, it'll be to other fighting games like SF4, MK, or Soul Calibur which get much less frequent balance patches.
Also, it'll only be pushed when you go online, so people who may not have connect or have access to online will be unaffected by the balance patch.
The way Smash will do balance patches and the way League does balance patches are simply two different beasts.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Apparently there's a pic of Pacman drinking Klonoa and Lloyd tears.
You're seriously underestimating the scope of what a balance patch encompasses. It's not a trivial task by any means.
SliceSabre
Banned
True two different games, but still a valid example of what happens when all you do all day is pay a group of people to worry about balance balance balance and release constant balance patches.
TheSlySoul
Member
I figured this was a build that did not have some characters in it. Found it funny they forgot to get rid of Sneaky Ghost in the 3DS version.
Closer to Brawl than Melee.
My point was that his Melee options being gone isn't the end of him being good. I don't think there is enough playtime to discover what options Marth has in SSB4.
Well the invitational build let you turn off items and play stock matches. The best buy build (e3 show floor build?) did not, as far as I know.
It's possible there are balancing changes between the versions.
SliceSabre
Banned
Balance patches are something the fanbasees of those other fighting games expect and are used to along with re-releases.
And no I don't think the solution should be "Just don't get online then." Cause the obvious come back to that is, if you don't like Smash 4's balance then don't play the game then.
Neither is helpful to the debate.
That would be great, I hope Nintendo stays intereted on the Smash competitive scene after seeing how huge the invitational was, so much wasted potencial because of stubbornness.
Beelzebufo
Banned
SF never had balance patches before SF4 lol. Smash might not have balance patches before Smash4.
Depends on what they do, I doubt they'd go the full on dota style balance patches, which are really good but only really make sense in the genre.
Smash style balance patches could/would just be stuff like:
-Increased the end frames on King Dededes down throw by 10 frames to prevent chain grabbing
-Metaknight will no longer recognise smash inputs during the dimensional cape startup frames to prevent a glitch where he can infinitely stay under it's effects
-Decreased stale moves modifier by 50%
-Increased the window after you start a dash where you can change direction
-Increased whoever's utilt knockback by 10% to prevent an inescapable combo at low percentages
-Increased whoever's running speed by 25% so they have more of an opportunity to follow up on combos.
-Fixed a bug that didn't apply the proper knockback and damage when hitting with X's sweetspot on their forward air
That kind of stuff that fixes bugs or gives characters slight tweaks to make them better.
Wreck-It Ralph
Member
Hooray, new thread.
Anna is still my top billing for that Fire Emblem position honestly. She pretty much subverts everything about the current inclusions, rumored and confirmed, by being a cheery female character with a more mundane but relevant occupation. In battle styles, there's no lack of things to draw from, with her even going as far as to use her trademark sword to primarily cast ranged lightning magic versus swinging it most times. This is also in combination with tomes, magic staves, and spears. She also has the longevity and internal support to make her more than just one of "Sakurai's silly whims" should it happen. It certainly depends on a very grand stretching of the logistics that lead to previous character inclusions in Smash but we've seen crazier things before.
Lip gets a pass from me just because I want to see a character with a targeted swap mechanic in a game as explicitly position based as Smash is. Just looking at this is enough to sell me on the concept without even considering the character:
(Courtesy of Lightdasher from Smashboards)
So predictions that Mac would sport his Wii circuit colours were pretty spot on. WTT getting green was a pretty easy guess though. Waiting to see if my orange prediction is spot on.
SliceSabre
Banned
To be honest I believe of lot of this stuff is the death of a thousand cuts to Smash that would lead to a day when to do interesting stuff in smash you must do Quarter circle turn left, CBABBA, Quarter turn right.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions they say.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions they say.
And my point was that the way the base mechanics work with his current moves makes him objectively bad.
Marth was good because he was a character that was heavily based around rewarding good spacing and having a good grab and combo game, when you take away the movement options from the game which marth used to help his spacing as well as all the other stuff that affects his grab and combo game without giving him any new options then yes, he is much worse.
We've have had enough playtime with the current build of marth to find out if the current build of marth is viable unless there are techniques that flat out aren't programmed into the game yet.
But that literally doesn't make sense.
Nobody is asking for them to add wave dashing into the game or the melee form of L-cancelling, noone has asked for anything that requires extra inputs.
You keep failing to understand that we want smash to continue to be accessible, we want it to grow at all levels and increasing the skill ceiling by giving people more options does not raise the skill floor.
Beelzebufo
Banned
What... What are you talking about?
Okay... that'd actually be pretty cool. I'd be down.
SliceSabre
Banned
That all these suggestions that competitives want will one day lead to that under the guise of "Its deeper gameplay that won't affect casuals at all!"
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