Lebron James' NBA Finals record is now 2-3, fails to 3-peat this year

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genjiZERO said:
Bwahaha, so true.

I think this difference is though that Jordan was always simply a vehicle to sell things to kids - basic commercialism.

On the other hand, Lebron sold-out on his hometown team (even if he's actually from Akron) to go to a tailor-made team designed to win championships into perpetuity in the most melodramatic way possible. I know pro sports is a male soap-opera, but I think that was just too much for a lot of people.
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He didn't sell out on Cleveland. He didn't do anything wrong by leaving that team. He just executed it in a dumb way.

It didn't make sense for him to stay or he would have been like Kevin Garnett. A great player carrying a franchise that no other superstar wanted to go to. You need help to win. Bron was smart and got out quick.
 
genjiZERO said:
Bwahaha, so true.

I think this difference is though that Jordan was always simply a vehicle to sell things to kids - basic commercialism.

On the other hand, Lebron sold-out on his hometown team (even if he's actually from Akron) to go to a tailor-made team designed to win championships into perpetuity in the most melodramatic way possible. I know pro sports is a male soap-opera, but I think that was just too much for a lot of people.
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In that respect I honestly don't see that much of a difference, just a different narrative.

With all of the top guys, they know what they make is a drop in the bucket of how much celebrity they have to exploit. Even players from the 70s like George Gervin and Dr. J can make serious money on the signed sports memorabilia circuit. They still have followings and die hard fans know how much money flows because of their athletic celebrity. They're not dumb.

Jordan was just the right guy who knew how to put a smile on in front of a camera and had the agents who knew what endorsement deals to make. No different from Magic, from Bird, from Isaiah, or from Barkley. Barkley manages to be the ONLY one who's somewhat upfront about it.
 
OriginalNameGuy said:
Jordan's Bulls didn't have to compete against an all time great coach and three hall of famers. Jordan nostalgia is the worst.
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Audible Phonetics said:
Whats funny is people are now tryna say Lebron need help lmao

How much more help can he get?
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Every player needs help to win a title. If all of a sudden Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli became shells of their former selves people would be saying Timmy needs help. LeBron had help, and when he did, he won titles. Now that Wade is looking flabbier and sicker he's not good enough to be the 2nd best player on a title team. Don't know what's so hard to understand about it.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
c'mon if we are harping on the MJ comparisons complaining that one guy seemed fake and manufactured seemed silly. Jordan's entire life was manufactured to be a PR sneaker selling machine when he was playing. He was as phony as they come.
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Of course. But the difference is one was a bunch of gatorade and sneakers and the other was directly basketball related.

I have no doubt Jordan was coached on how to give interviews and all, but the way "the Decision" and following season went down was terrible. He caught blow back, he puffed his chest and acted like he'd be fine without the fans and buzzsaw through the league regardless. Then the Mavs served up the humble pie and next season we had a different Lebron with a different narrative.

I'm sure it's exaggerated in my mind, but however it went down it left a really poor taste in my mouth for some reason.
 
theWB27 said:
He didn't sell out on Cleveland. He didn't do anything wrong by leaving that team. He just executed it in a dumb way.

It didn't make sense for him to stay or he would have been like Kevin Garnett. A great player carrying a franchise that no other superstar wanted to go to. You need help to win. Bron was smart and got out quick.
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Oh, I agree. It's just that that's the way it's perceived by a lot of people.

DoktorEvil said:
In that respect I honestly don't see that much of a difference, just a different narrative.

With all of the top guys, they know what they make is a drop in the bucket of how much celebrity they have to exploit. Even players from the 70s like George Gervin and Dr. J can make serious money on the signed sports memorabilia circuit. They still have followings and die hard fans know how much money flows because of their athletic celebrity. They're not dumb.

Jordan was just the right guy who knew how to put a smile on in front of a camera and had the agents who knew what endorsement deals to make. No different from Magic, from Bird, from Isaiah, or from Barkley. Barkley manages to be the ONLY one who's somewhat upfront about it.
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RIght, it's the difference in narrative that bother people. Lebron's PR team made some big mistakes and his popularity has suffered for it.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Every player needs help to win a title. If all of a sudden Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli became shells of their former selves people would be saying Timmy needs help. LeBron had help, and when he did, he won titles. Now that Wade is looking flabbier and sicker he's not good enough to be the 2nd best player on a title team. Don't know what's so hard to understand about it.
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It's hard to understand because the Heat have been to four straight are coming off a repeat and now people feel the need to protect Lebron by saying his back to back championship team is a bunch of scrubs.

The same nonsense WAS said last year about Manu being done and should hang it up.

So funny.
 
Lebron won't go back to Cleveland, they completely wasted his time by not being able to build a team around him. They're not a franchise capable of success, so he'll never go back. They actually burned him with failure as he did the fans with betrayal.
 
I don't get this "sold-out" narrative. Lebron gave the Cavs everything he had from the moment he was drafted. You're talking about a guy that averaged 39/8/8 in a losing effort(2009 ECF). He got tired of wasting his athletic peak with a bad organization. Why should have Lebron sat around hoping the Cavs front office would give him the help he needed? If anything he stuck around too long. Kyrie Irving will leave too and obviously he's not Lebron James, but you know he won't receive a fraction of the hate Lebron gets when its time for his "decision".

You know the real reason Lebron gets this hate is because Jordan fans realise he presents the biggest challenge to Jordan's status as GOAT and that is why they pile on anytime his team fails. Lebron's already established himself as one of the most complete players to ever step on the court. The only thing Jordan fans have left is the ring argument.
 
Pimpwerx said:
Feigned impartiality, get. Jordan played in a post expansion period of diluted competition. Look at some of the garbage teams that comprised the "powerhouse" east. Goons in tank tops isn't scaring anyone. Jordan never took on a veteran championship core like the Doc Celtics or a well regimented defense with the league MVP like the Thibs Bulls. He never faced a team even close to the level of the Spurs, much less the red hot 2011 Mavs. Every Finals he drew an OKC out of the deck and drubbed them. Yeah, I'm not buying it. PEACE.
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This is honestly the least-informed sports post I've ever seen on GAF and that is saying something.
 
The thing that annoys me is that no one was saying the Heat were done before the finals. No one thought the Heat's supporting cast sucked, many picked them against the Spurs. Now of a sudden Lebron doesn't have enough? Fuck that!

Spurs out played them on offense and on defense. Everyone is deserves blame including Lebron, but especially Wade, Bosh and Chalmers.
 
OriginalNameGuy said:
You know the real reason Lebron gets this hate is because Jordan fans realise he presents the biggest challenge to Jordan's status as GOAT and that is why they pile on anytime his team fails. Lebron's already established himself as one of the most complete players to ever step on the court. The only thing Jordan fans have left is the ring argument.
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Hey man, you want some water? You must be dehydrated from all dat salt.
 
ssolitare said:
Lebron won't go back to Cleveland, they completely wasted his time by not being able to build a team around him. They're not a franchise capable of success, so he'll never go back. They actually burned him with failure as he did the fans with betrayal.
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also the owner wrote a fucking crazy person public letter that was creepily laced w centuries old racist undertones
 
Not to kiss Jordan's ass any further but those 90's Knicks and Pacers teams would've ruled the decade if the Bulls didn't whoop them. Those were two teams and the Jazz were essentially the basketball version of the Buffalo Bills of the 90s.

ratcliffja said:
I just want to see Lebron leave to see how many Heat fans suddenly change their tune on him.
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We cheered for Shaq when he left and have often cheered for other heat players when they moved on, like Zo for example. If he leaves I don't foresee anyone booing him in miami unless he does it like he did with the Decision.
 
Doc Holliday said:
The thing that annoys me is that no one was saying the Heat were done before the finals. No one thought the Heat's supporting cast sucked, many picked them against the Spurs. Now of a sudden Lebron doesn't have enough? Fuck that!

Spurs out played them on offense and on defense. Everyone is deserves blame including Lebron, but especially Wade, Bosh and Chalmers.
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Wade played well against Indy and he fell off a cliff in the Finals. LeBron is the only Miami player who played well in the finals. Why is it so crazy to say "he didn't have enough help". That's the truth. I don't understand your beef.
 
The only way he would go back to cleveland is if Dan Gilbert was gone and management had a shake up. That's not including the team part of it, like getting a decent coach.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Wade played well against Indy and he fell off a cliff in the Finals. LeBron is the only Miami player who played well in the finals. Why is it so crazy to say "he didn't have enough help". That's the truth. I don't understand your beef.
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Because they make it sound like Lebron just carried a shitty team to the finals and the Spurs winning was a foregone conclusion. I remember after game 2 most would agree that the Heat were the favorite.
 
Doc Holliday said:
The thing that annoys me is that no one was saying the Heat were done before the finals. No one thought the Heat's supporting cast sucked, many picked them against the Spurs. Now of a sudden Lebron doesn't have enough? Fuck that!

Spurs out played them on offense and on defense. Everyone is deserves blame including Lebron, but especially Wade, Bosh and Chalmers.
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The salt is high with some fans, with some doing mental gymnastics to get around last night's loss.

Just compare the posts after Game 2 to now, and you'll see the cognitive dissonance some fans go to soften that L.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Because they make it sound like Lebron just carried a shitty team to the finals and the Spurs winning was a foregone conclusion. I remember after game 2 most would agree that the Heat were the favorite.
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Lol "after game 2" - I mean, of course, heat had just stolen HCA.

But you can't look at the production of the other guys and say he had help. Like objectively, subjectively, by any other metric you want.
 
v0yce said:
It's hard to understand because the Heat have been to four straight are coming off a repeat and now people feel the need to protect Lebron by saying his back to back championship team is a bunch of scrubs.

The same nonsense WAS said last year about Manu being done and should hang it up.

So funny.
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And each year the supporting cast got older and didn't play as well. They almost (and probably should've) lost last year. Is it that weird that a bunch of guys in their mid-30s get progressively worse over a 4-year period?

Or are you trying to argue that the 2014 Heat is just as good as the 2012 Heat? That Ray Allen and Battier and Wade this year are playing at the same level as they did the previous 2 years? That letting Mike Miller go didn't hurt them?
 
genjiZERO said:
I think this pretty much kills any Jordan comparison at this point. Which is good because a lot of the Lebron hate comes from this. He's not as good as Jordan. Let's move on and judge him for the player his is.

Kobe > Lebron

edit:

Complaining about Lebron's teammates on the Heat is a joke. They're overstacked and filled with great players taking pay cuts to win championships. At this point it's disingenuous to blame his teammates. Lebron didn't come to play either.
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i agree

kobe definitely beats lebron in the 'get dwight howard, pau gasol, steve nash on your team and barely make the playoffs' stat
 
Pimpwerx said:
Feigned impartiality, get. Jordan played in a post expansion period of diluted competition. Look at some of the garbage teams that comprised the "powerhouse" east. Goons in tank tops isn't scaring anyone. Jordan never took on a veteran championship core like the Doc Celtics or a well regimented defense with the league MVP like the Thibs Bulls. He never faced a team even close to the level of the Spurs, much less the red hot 2011 Mavs. Every Finals he drew an OKC out of the deck and drubbed them. Yeah, I'm not buying it. PEACE.
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What in the FUCK!? 8th seeded teams from the Jordan era would smash the number seeds of today. It would not even be a competition.
 
DoktorEvil said:
Dan Gilbert won't take his ass back and neither will the Cleveland fans.
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BULLSHIT. Gilbert would take him back in a heartbeat and I sure as hell would as a Cleveland fan. Watching your team play playoff games is a hell of a lot more fun then watching the lottery.
 
Red Blaster said:
i agree

kobe definitely beats lebron in the 'get dwight howard, pau gasol, steve nash on your team and barely make the playoffs' stat
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But Kobe got all of those rings by himself. He had to fight Phil Jackson every night in the locker room, pulling at his beard and crushing his glasses within his closed fist, just so he would let him play on the court, by himself, all throughout their 3 peat. It's no wonder Shaq got fat; Kobe wouldn't let the poor man play.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Because they make it sound like Lebron just carried a shitty team to the finals and the Spurs winning was a foregone conclusion. I remember after game 2 most would agree that the Heat were the favorite.
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Lebron played 1,300 more minutes than the Heat's 2nd best player(Wade) and he played more minutes than Chris Bosh. This has more or less been the story since they came together in 2010-2011. If that isn't the definition of carried I don't know what is. This is a fringe playoff team without Lebron, 5-8 seed at best. In the western conference they wouldn't even sniff the playoffs. Wade has been on a steady decline since having the meniscus removed from his knee and it will never get better. That's no fault of Wade, we know when he was relatively healthy he could have carried a team on his own(he did from 2006-2009). Now its just not possible.
 
DoktorEvil said:
Dan Gilbert won't take his ass back and neither will the Cleveland fans.
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When I lived in the Cleveland suburbs, about 50% wanted him back and 50% didnt think there was a chance he'd come back. The idea there is a majority of the fanbase wont have him back is lol
 
404Ender said:
And each year the supporting cast got older and didn't play as well. They almost (and probably should've) lost last year. Is it that weird that a bunch of guys in their mid-30s get progressively worse over a 4-year period?

Or are you trying to argue that the 2014 Heat is just as good as the 2012 Heat? That Ray Allen and Battier and Wade this year are playing at the same level as they did the previous 2 years? That letting Mike Miller go didn't hurt them?
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What I'm saying is, like other's have pointed out, you didn't hear this before Game 3. Now it's like "of course they lost, it's Lebron and a bunch of has been grandpas."

Again look at the finals thread from last year. Every other post is about how terrible Manu is how he's done and if he's to any dignity he'll help the Spurs by retiring. Almost exactly like what's been said about Wade. And yet we just saw Manu putting Heat on a poster.

And lol @ Mike Miller comment.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Every player needs help to win a title. If all of a sudden Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli became shells of their former selves people would be saying Timmy needs help. LeBron had help, and when he did, he won titles. Now that Wade is looking flabbier and sicker he's not good enough to be the 2nd best player on a title team. Don't know what's so hard to understand about it.
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That's non sense. This team got them to the finals 4 times in a row including this year. It was only this series that they didn't show up and that is CREDIT to Spurs, not because Bosh is a shell of himself.
 
v0yce said:
What I'm saying is, like other's have pointed out, you didn't hear this before Game 3. Now it's like "of course they lost, it's Lebron and a bunch of has been grandpas."

Again look at the finals thread from last year. Every other post is about how terrible Manu is how he's done and if he's to any dignity he'll help the Spurs by retiring. Almost exactly like what's been said about Wade. And yet we just saw Manu putting Heat on a poster.

And lol @ Mike Miller comment.
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2 things:
1- Mike miller was huge for us- could handle the ball, could rebound, and space w/ shooting. He had a GREAT year this year, we def could have used him
2- I don't understand your argument at all. Manu had a really bad series last year- and thats a big part of why SA lost. This year, wade and bosh weren't good, along w/ chalmers and co. Thats a big part of why we lost.

So... whats the issue?
 
agrajag said:
This Spurs team would've destroyed Jordan's Bulls.
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No way. Pippen would've shut down Leonard, Bulls spread the floor with their shooters, Kukoc is taller and just as good as Ginobili, Rodman could guard Duncan, Grant could guard Diaw, or vice verse, and Parker would have no chance against Jordan.

And Jordan, Jordan, Jordan. Oh and those 72 season win Bulls won't let Jordan do it alone. You really think those players are a aging Allan, Battier, Lewis, and roll players are comparable to Cole, Chalmers, or Beasely?

Lol!

Those Bulls were also the best defense. It'd be a fun series but these Spurs would lose in 6 or maybe even 5!
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
No way. Pippen would've shut down Leonard, Bulls spread the floor with their shooters, Kukoc is taller and just as good as Ginobili, Rodman could guard Duncan, Grant could guard Diaw, and Parker would have no chance against Jordan.

And Jordan, Jordan, Jordan. Oh and those 72 season win Bulls won't let Jordan do it alone. You really think those players are a aging Allan, Battier, Lewis, and roll players are comparable to Cole, Chalmers, or Beasely?

Lol!
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Grant and rodman never played together
 
v0yce said:
What I'm saying is, like other's have pointed out, you didn't hear this before Game 3. Now it's like "of course they lost, it's Lebron and a bunch of has been grandpas."
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Who is saying this? 14-year-old Youtube commenters? You're exaggerating the argument. And people have been questioning Wade's ability to hold it together without wearing down all year. That's why he logged way fewer minutes and starts throughout the regular season than Lebron. Pretty sure no one has been raving about the supporting cast outside of the Big 3 either.

v0yce said:
Again look at the finals thread from last year. Every other post is about how terrible Manu is how he's done and if he's to any dignity he'll help the Spurs by retiring. Almost exactly like what's been said about Wade. And yet we just saw Manu putting Heat on a poster.
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So you're just proving my point. Last year, Manu was worn down and playing like an old man, and the Spurs suffered as a result. Same with Wade this year.

It's possible Wade will have a resurgence next year (much like Manu did this year), but with his knee injury history I'd say it's not likely.
 
peterb0y said:
2 things:
1- Mike miller was huge for us- could handle the ball, could rebound, and space w/ shooting. He had a GREAT year this year, we def could have used him
2- I don't understand your argument at all. Manu had a really bad series last year- and thats a big part of why SA lost. This year, wade and bosh weren't good, along w/ chalmers and co. Thats a big part of why we lost.

So... whats the issue?
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Mike Miller
.481 FG%
.459 3P%
Mike Miller played all 82 games for Memphis Grizzlies. That is most important statistic. He was healthy. I don't think he could have helped the Miami Heat this year, but I hope the Heat realize they better not start being cheap. If you need to go over the cap go over the cap.
 
DoktorEvil said:
Dan Gilbert won't take his ass back and neither will the Cleveland fans.
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YES, WE WILL TAKE HIM BACK. Jordan revisionist history is awful. Jordan didn't deal with nearly as much parity or a 24 hour media cycle. Bron is better than Cheese Eyes, in my opinion.
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
No way. Pippen would've shut down Leonard, Bulls spread the floor with their shooters, Kukoc is taller and just as good as Ginobili, Rodman could guard Duncan, Grant could guard Diaw, and Parker would have no chance against Jordan.
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Grant wasn't with the Bulls on the second run. My memory is fuzzy but I think he was playing for Orlando.
 
Wizman23 said:
What in the FUCK!? 8th seeded teams from the Jordan era would smash the number seeds of today. It would not even be a competition.
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Do you really believe this? You believe top athletes are less athletic than their counterparts two decades earlier? You may argue that Jordan's competitors were closer in skill level to him than today's competitors are to Lebron, but comparing eras 20 years apart? No contest. The level of athleticism, size, and depth on today's NBA rosters is on another level. It's not a knock on Jordan. IT's just the nature of human advancement in sports.
 
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