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[georly]

The game doesn't have to play like Melee. Simply allowing dashes to be cancelled is a start towards more offensive options, and that's a simple thing because Bowser can already do it (for whatever reason).

And you speak as if Sakurai isn't tweaking thousands of variables every day already. That's what testing and polishing a game entails.

All I'm saying is for the game to 'feel' like melee changing the speed will not do much. You have to change air speed, height, etc. Landing speed, dashing speed, turnaround speed, and a bunch of other physics things.

While he is tweaking numbers, he's not setting them to polar opposites or anything radically different. I'm sure there's a variable for 'air_dodge_directional_velocity' which is currently set to zero, where in melee it might have had some number set to it. Things like that are likely not going to be changed because it could change the whole flow of the game. It's more like he's changing 'knockback_distance_bowser_fsmash' from 18 to 18.5 or something. It's more complicated than that, i'm sure, but he's still tweaking, not implementing alternative physics that could potentially break the game.

Marvel 3 does it is with X-Factor just fine. Totally doable.

X factor changes speed/damage, etc, right? It doesn't make the game play like street fighter vs capcom Marvel vs Street Figher. It doesn't revert the entire game engine or make it feel like you're playing a different game entirely. Smash already has items/modes that change speed, strength, size, and now it has equipment that changes power, defense, etc. The game will STILL FEEL LIKE SMASH 4 if you change those variables, though.

Changing speed will never ever ever ever ever make smash 4 'feel like melee.' You have to change WAY more than that to make this feel like melee.

 

[Lunar15]

DK is Wham, Ganondorf is ACDC and Dedede is Cars.

I am incredibly fine with this. Although, I might take Bowser as ACDC (he breathes fire) and Ganondorf as Cars (he's the only actually evil one)

 

[Weltall Zero]

So

how many games have you guys become aware of first through smash?

my answer is: pretty much all of them aside from pokemon and mario, I think. I was a youngin' when I played smash64

Fire Emblem for me. By Melee's time, I knew it existed and that it was a Nintendo medieval SRPG, but that was about it.
I already knew of all other Nintendo franchises, including Mother (via Earthbound), which I played via rental but didn't own (SNES games being crazy expensive in Spain and me being a high schooler during the SNES era).

 

[Megidolaon]

Sweet. The cover look great. So close now. Feels like yesterday I played Brawl for the fist time. :*)

 

[emb]

All I'm saying is for the game to 'feel' like melee changing the speed will not do much. You have to change air speed, height, etc. Landing speed, dashing speed, turnaround speed, and a bunch of other physics things.

While he is tweaking numbers, he's not setting them to polar opposites or anything radically different. I'm sure there's a variable for 'air_dodge_directional_velocity' which is currently set to zero, where in melee it might have had some number set to it. Things like that are likely not going to be changed because it could change the whole flow of the game. It's more like he's changing 'knockback_distance_bowser_fsmash' from 18 to 18.5 or something. It's more complicated than that, i'm sure, but he's still tweaking, not implementing alternative physics that could potentially break the game.



X factor changes speed/damage, etc, right? It doesn't make the game play like street fighter vs capcom. It doesn't revert the entire game engine or make it feel like you're playing a different game entirely. Smash already has items/modes that change speed, strength, size, and now it has equipment that changes power, defense, etc. The game will STILL FEEL LIKE SMASH 4 if you change those variables, though.

Changing speed will never ever ever ever ever make smash 4 'feel like melee.' You have to change WAY more than that to make this feel like melee.

Hold up. First of all, is Street Fighter vs Capcom a thing? If so lol. But I assume you meant X-Men vs Street Fighter or whatever it was.

Anyway, yeah, I pretty much agree. Lots of changes would be needed. But cancelling all the landing lag on aerials and widening the turn around window during dash start up across the board would already make it feel a lot better. It wouldn't have to be perfect, but I'd love if they had a mode with some little universal tweaks like that.

 

[georly]

Hold up. First of all, is Street Fighter vs Capcom a thing? If so lol. But I assume you meant X-Men vs Street Fighter or whatever it was.

Anyway, yeah, I pretty much agree. Lots of changes would be needed. But cancelling all the landing lag on aerials and widening the turn around window during dash start up across the board would already make it feel a lot better. It wouldn't have to be perfect, but I'd love if they had a mode with some little universal tweaks like that.

Sorry, yeah, X-men vs street fighter Coffee hasn't kicked in.

 

[SliceSabre]

Hold up. First of all, is Street Fighter vs Capcom a thing? If so lol. But I assume you meant X-Men vs Street Fighter or whatever it was.

Anyway, yeah, I pretty much agree. Lots of changes would be needed. But cancelling all the landing lag on aerials and widening the turn around window during dash start up across the board would already make it feel a lot better. It wouldn't have to be perfect, but I'd love if they had a mode with some little universal tweaks like that.

Then they'd need to have a Smash 64 Mode, Melee Mode, and a Brawl mode.

Because fair is fair. Evne if you do not like Brawl and 64 as much as Melee.

At that point you're wasting resources on something not that many people would really get that much use of.

 

[Metaternal]

So

how many games have you guys become aware of first through smash?

my answer is: pretty much all of them aside from pokemon and mario, I think. I was a youngin' when I played smash64

64: Starfox, Metroid, and Earthbound. I thought Link's name was Zelda at first. I just barely remembered C. Falcon from when I rented F-Zero X that one time.

Melee: Fire Emblem, Ice Climber and Game & Watch. Basically all the new ones lol

Brawl: Mother 3 was the only one.

This is only for characters, I'm not even gonna begin to list the trophies that told me about stuff.

 

[georly]

Then they'd need to have a Smash 64 Mode, Melee Mode, and a Brawl mode.

Because fair is fair. Evne if you do not like Brawl and 64 as much as Melee.

At that point you're wasting resources on something not that many people would really get that much use of.

Yup. You have to have do all past engines to make everyone happy. That also means you have to test the game almost 4 times. You need to make sure old physics/engine don't break on your current levels. You also have to code in properties for each of the newcomers that didn't have variables for those games. You also have to modify variables that didn't exist for those old games (like air dodge for 64). It's a resource nightmare. The amount of testing and coding you'd have to do for a feature that a small amount of players would use makes it not worth it at all.

Just accept it's a new smash game, embrace it. No one's making you stop playing the old games.

 

[emb]

Sorry, yeah, X-men vs street fighter Coffee hasn't kicked in.

No worries, it happens. I kinda like the idea of how silly that would be though. We need a Pokemon vs Nintendo game now.

Then they'd need to have a Smash 64 Mode, Melee Mode, and a Brawl mode.

Because fair is fair. Evne if you do not like Brawl and 64 as much as Melee.

At that point you're wasting resources on something not that many people would really get that much use of.

Eh, with the way moves and characters work, I wasn't thinking of it as so much of a Melee mode, as a quick mode. Getting rid of all landing lag is more Smash 64-like. Outside of slightly faster fall speed and more hitstun, the game sort of is Brawl mode already isn't it?

But an actual Smash 64 mode would be really sick. Imagining all these characters with blocky models and strong, impactful sound effects is actual pretty cool. I think I'd like that even more than a Melee mode maybe.

But either way, past modes aren't happening. I don't think anyone isn't accepting that. It's like a Ridley discussion; talking about what would be cool, knowing 100% that nothing close to it will happen.

 

[PadWarrior]

Do you use a shoulder button or face button for grab? For a long time I used a shoulder button but the x button on my gc controller also feels good.

 

[ffdgh]

Do you use a shoulder button or face button for grab? For a long time I used a shoulder button but the x button on my gc controller also feels good.

Z on Gcn. I'm horrible with any other alternative.

 

[PadWarrior]

Z on Gcn. I'm horrible with any other alternative.

Z feels awkward for me. I don't know how I did it with Melee lol.

 

[georly]

http://smashbros-miiverse.com/characters/kirby hats section added. Shame most of them are blurry. Can't even tell what the rosalina one is like.

 

[BGBW]

http://smashbros-miiverse.com/characters/kirby hats section added. Shame most of them are blurry. Can't even tell what the rosalina one is like.

Her crown, much like his Peach hat.

 

[metalmonstar]

Marvel 3 does it is with X-Factor just fine. Totally doable.

Lets no put one of the worst mechanics from Marvel vs Capcom 3 into the smash series. I also fail to see how it speeds up the game. It is often used on your last character to try to pull off a sweep, you did something unsafe and are about to be punished for it, you got a happy birthday, you are tired of being chipped to death. Mostly carry anchors are using it to apply offensive pressure.

It would be interesting to see a more ground based smash game. In 64 and Melee you jumped around a lot thanks to Z and L cancelling. In brawl being in the air kept you from tripping. The floatiness of the game also extended the amount of air time.

I know a lot of people want dash-dancing and less ending lag on aerials. I have to wonder though if rolls are buffed what is wrong with rolls being the new offensive movement option?

Good or bad the mechanics of a game shapes its metagame. Most people thought tripping was bad, but it still had a huge effect on how the metagame was shaped. Characters that could take to the air or didn't need to move around much were the dominant forces. The game is not finished yet and we have no idea what kind of metagame the mechanics will create.

 

[Karsticles]

X factor changes speed/damage, etc, right? It doesn't make the game play like street fighter vs capcom Marvel vs Street Figher. It doesn't revert the entire game engine or make it feel like you're playing a different game entirely. Smash already has items/modes that change speed, strength, size, and now it has equipment that changes power, defense, etc. The game will STILL FEEL LIKE SMASH 4 if you change those variables, though.

Changing speed will never ever ever ever ever make smash 4 'feel like melee.' You have to change WAY more than that to make this feel like melee.

X-Factor speeds up everything:
-Frame data on attacks (startup, active, and recovery frames)
-Movement frames
-Natural gravity for the character using it

Melee fans would be happy to have that as an option.

Lets no put one of the worst mechanics from Marvel vs Capcom 3 into the smash series. I also fail to see how it speeds up the game. It is often used on your last character to try to pull off a sweep, you did something unsafe and are about to be punished for it, you got a happy birthday, you are tired of being chipped to death. Mostly carry anchors are using it to apply offensive pressure.

It would be interesting to see a more ground based smash game. In 64 and Melee you jumped around a lot thanks to Z and L cancelling. In brawl being in the air kept you from tripping. The floatiness of the game also extended the amount of air time.

I know a lot of people want dash-dancing and less ending lag on aerials. I have to wonder though if rolls are buffed what is wrong with rolls being the new offensive movement option?

Good or bad the mechanics of a game shapes its metagame. Most people thought tripping was bad, but it still had a huge effect on how the metagame was shaped. Characters that could take to the air or didn't need to move around much were the dominant forces. The game is not finished yet and we have no idea what kind of metagame the mechanics will create.

I think you should read a conversation before trying to enter it.

 

[georly]

Her crown, much like his Peach hat.

but with this:

ok! Wonder how the luma acts, though.

 

[CassSept]

So

how many games have you guys become aware of first through smash?

my answer is: pretty much all of them aside from pokemon and mario, I think. I was a youngin' when I played smash64

Melee was basically my introduction to gaming, so besides Pokemon, most Mario (sans Dr. Mario) and Zelda characters everything was new to me. Mother, Ice Climber, F-Zero, Fire Emblem, Game & Watch...

By Brawl I knew everyone so that was a different story

 

[emb]

It would be interesting to see a more ground based smash game. In 64 and Melee you jumped around a lot thanks to Z and L cancelling. In brawl being in the air kept you from tripping. The floatiness of the game also extended the amount of air time.

I know a lot of people want dash-dancing and less ending lag on aerials. I have to wonder though if rolls are buffed what is wrong with rolls being the new offensive movement option?

Good or bad the mechanics of a game shapes its metagame. Most people thought tripping was bad, but it still had a huge effect on how the metagame was shaped. Characters that could take to the air or didn't need to move around much were the dominant forces. The game is not finished yet and we have no idea what kind of metagame the mechanics will create.

I like this perspective. I always thought of Melee as a more ground based game though, due to crouch cancelling, grabs being really strong, and dash dancing. Going into the air is a definite liability.

I think it's a fair point; it will be interesting, and possibly exciting, if things like landing lag can shape the game into something different. Brawl had that same issue though, and I think it contributed to the aerial focus there too. I guess my difference in view point is that I see the shffl/zing from the first two games as still staying ground focused; it's basically a way to use aerials as nearly grounded attacks.

 

[User 73706]

I like this perspective. I always thought of Melee as a more ground based game though, due to crouch cancelling, grabs being really strong, and dash dancing. Going into the air is a definite liability.

I think it's a fair point; it will be interesting, and possibly exciting, if things like landing lag can shape the game into something different. Brawl had that same issue though, and I think it contributed to the aerial focus there too. I guess my difference in view point is that I see the shffl/zing from the first two games as still staying ground focused; it's basically a way to use aerials as nearly grounded attacks.

Adding on to this, I'm of a similar mentality and I have a feeling Little Mac is basically going to be the "Melee-era born-in-the-wrong-decade" character in SSB4, compared to Meta Knight in Brawl. If he's balanced compared to the remainder of the roster, I think it'll be indicative that SSB4 is a little closer to the hasty rough-and-tumble gameplay we're hoping for. Ironically, though, MK was really aerially-oriented.

 

[JediLink]

X-Factor speeds up everything:
-Frame data on attacks (startup, active, and recovery frames)
-Movement frames
-Natural gravity for the character using it

Melee fans would be happy to have that as an option.

Lolwut. That's no different from just going into Special Brawl and putting the speed to fast. Making everything faster doesn't achieve anything if landing lag is still significantly longer than shield stun. It still limits viable approach options, which will still make the game defensive and slow-paced even if it's superficially sped up.

 

[IntelliHeath]

My friend send me this link, but I'm curious what do you think about this post.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69486638

 

[georly]

My friend send me this link, but I'm curious what do you think about this post.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69486638

To quote the post under it:

I agree with some parts, but I don't agree with others. I don't feel like going into detail.

 

[Beelzebufo]

but with this:

ok! Wonder how the luma acts, though.

It just appears when you press B, and disappears after flying forward a bit. Kirby can charge it up to send it farther. It basically just spins in a spiral while charging forward.

My friend send me this link, but I'm curious what do you think about this post.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69486638

That whole post is pretty awful really.

 

[Kyzon]

So

how many games have you guys become aware of first through smash?

my answer is: pretty much all of them aside from pokemon and mario, I think. I was a youngin' when I played smash64

Only Fire Emblem. I knew everyone else strangely even though I hadn't played all of the other games.

 

[PadWarrior]

http://smashboards.com/threads/from-brawl-to-super-smash-brothers-wii-u-the-differences.358932/

Yes!

Mario: Mario is a lot faster than in Brawl, even more agile in the air, and feels quite good! Solid moveset overall, both in the air and ground, and difficult to edgeguard at times due to his up b's priority. Mario still lacks a direct approach option, so he's mainly dashing around, catching people in the air, and putting his good aerial game to use. Grabs are also very effective. Mario's smash attacks are a lot more powerful now, and are a bit quicker too, making them more reliable options.

 

[emb]

Just saw this video about some invitational players. Seems cool based on the first 30 seconds or so, haha. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_9c_5l81cM

My friend send me this link, but I'm curious what do you think about this post.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69486638

I like the first response there. "I agree with some parts, but don't with others. I don't feel like going into detail" lol.

I lean pretty heavily towards not agreeing with the topic creator though. There are a few missed opportunities for moves (iirc Wario doesn't have the shoulder charge? DK didn't have his roll? lol? Maybe it's just a different move than I'm remembering. Hard to know any more after Brawl, Brawl+, Brawl- and PM). Anyway, he's being nitpicky over minor stuff. Especially when he starts complaining about one of the move customizations. It's just a fun little change up for a special, deal with it, y'know?

http://smashboards.com/threads/from-brawl-to-super-smash-brothers-wii-u-the-differences.358932/

Yes!

Mario: Mario is a lot faster than in Brawl, even more agile in the air, and feels quite good! Solid moveset overall, both in the air and ground, and difficult to edgeguard at times due to his up b's priority. Mario still lacks a direct approach option, so he's mainly dashing around, catching people in the air, and putting his good aerial game to use. Grabs are also very effective. Mario's smash attacks are a lot more powerful now, and are a bit quicker too, making them more reliable options.

I'm weary. I remember Gimpy Fish saying Mario was really good in the Brawl demo. There's always a decent chance that both early impressions are off base, and the game gets tweaked. I'm hopeful though, Mario did seem to have a lot of moves that autocancel, and PPU's up airs were looking good.

I really hope Link is finally good in this game somehow. I can't imagine a real Smash Bros. where Link is actually good.

 

[Loco4Coco]

They'll nerf him, they'll nerf everyone.

 

[georly]

http://smashboards.com/threads/from-brawl-to-super-smash-brothers-wii-u-the-differences.358932/

Mr. McCloud has changed quite a bit. His most noticeable change is to his side B: he doesn't enter free fall animation after using his side B in the air, allowing him to side B into up B. This is a huge deal for his recovery.

Wait really!? Holy shit, that's huge. Shame he got nerfed everywhere else, though.

 

[Servbot24]

A few people never heard of Metal Gear until Brawl?

 

[Loco4Coco]

Damn, that's good news to hear about Fox.

 

[georly]

A few people never heard of Metal Gear until Brawl?

A few people are young.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I hope Sakurai makes everyone broken.

 

[Geminosity]

My friend send me this link, but I'm curious what do you think about this post.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69486638

I think some character's movesets could maybe have been tweaked a bit to make them more like their origins, but ultimately if it's fun and 'close enough' I'm not going to care a whole lot. I think Captain Falcon's moveset, for example, is pretty iconic and much more interesting than all his buttons being him sitting in his f-zero car with the engine idling

I also bet I'd hate that poster's 'perfect' roster because it'd likely be a giant 'bro'-fest with even less female characters that we even get now ¬.¬

On a tangeant, it's interesting seeing people's opinions on move variants.
Perhaps I'm somewhat jaded after going through more MMOs and RPGs than is sane for a single person but I generally look upon being able to tweak individual moves or choose variants of them to be an exercise in efficiency rather than real customisation.
They seem to inevitably boil down to one variant being the best tool in the box and anyone with any min-maxing or competitive tendencies rapidly settling into a cookie-cutter choice.

This is why I tend to prefer choosing whole 'movesets' or 'characters' because the balancing act becomes more complex and often slides closer to being about differing play-styles than simply arming yourself with the best tools for the job
That's just my personal opinion/observations however...

 

[PK Gaming]

Yay mecha ridley shenanigans!




HOLY SHIT

HOLY WUBSTORM!

I thought the same damn thing.

New official theme for Donkey Kong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sblR0eIRW-I

I friggin love this thread sometimes

 

[Beelzebufo]

So

how many games have you guys become aware of first through smash?

my answer is: pretty much all of them aside from pokemon and mario, I think. I was a youngin' when I played smash64

Everything in the first game. Fire Emblem, ice climbers, and game and watch in Melee. I knew them all by brawl.

 

[SoldnerKei]

You cannot nerf Link more than he already was in Brawl, so it was obvious that he would be better, now, for the projectile game, it always have kinda sucked except in Smash64, dat rang! I wish he for once, be high tier at least... only in PM according to this... damn didn't know that Zelda was that good

 

[Karsticles]

Lolwut. That's no different from just going into Special Brawl and putting the speed to fast. Making everything faster doesn't achieve anything if landing lag is still significantly longer than shield stun. It still limits viable approach options, which will still make the game defensive and slow-paced even if it's superficially sped up.

"Lolwut" indeed, because you don't know what you are talking about.

X-Factor does not speed up (reduce) hitstun or blockstun duration, so the game becomes faster and everything becomes safer. It's not a case of everything becoming faster. That would make no difference. Speeding things up X-Factor style means that landing lag would be reduced while shield stun remains the same.

Thanks for learning.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm weary. I remember Gimpy Fish saying Mario was really good in the Brawl demo. There's always a decent chance that both early impressions are off base, and the game gets tweaked. I'm hopeful though, Mario did seem to have a lot of moves that autocancel, and PPU's up airs were looking good.

I really hope Link is finally good in this game somehow. I can't imagine a real Smash Bros. where Link is actually good.

To be fair, Gimpyfish's impressions were based on the E for all demo of Brawl, which was quite different from the final product.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Maybe you can tell what input each of Palutena's specials are by the model animation.

 

[PadWarrior]

Pit sounds like a beast based on zeros impression.

 

[Boss Doggie]

 

[C.Olimar788]

My friend send me this link, but I'm curious what do you think about this post.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69486638

I agree that it would be nice if the characters' movesets worked a little harder to be representative of their individual abilities and franchises, but gameplay has to come first in that case. Brawl!Wario, for example, fit into a bit of a character niche and as much as I would have preferred his moves to be... well, moves that Wario would use, I can respect the direction his moveset was going. The Waft is a great example: terrible move idea as a move for Wario, but an interesting and unique move from a gameplay perspective.

I don't agree with his second points about the characters choices being bad, though. The Brawl roster is one of the most solid SSB rosters that can ever exist, doing an excellent job of balancing franchise reps with new characters and unique fighting styles (and this is coming from someone who vastly prefers Melee!). SSB4 has been doing a very good job of supplementing that roster thusfar, and characters like Palutena and Rosalina absolutely deserve to join in. And, let's be completely honest, anyone who truly thinks that Miis aren't important enough to justify an inclusion in SSB either is lying, joking, or hasn't been paying any attention to Nintendo for the past ten years.

Note that some of this praise will falter if rumors hold true and Lucas is cut, though, because cutting him would be a stupid decision only rivaled by the decision to cut Mewtwo from the Melee->Brawl transition.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

A few people never heard of Metal Gear until Brawl?

I was an eleven year-old Nintendo fanboy when Brawl was revealed.

 

[Lunar15]

You usin' items? Depending on your answer, I may have to KO your ass!

 

[Kouichi]

Wait really!? Holy shit, that's huge. Shame he got nerfed everywhere else, though.

Oh my god, that would be insane if they kept that. I hope it applies to Falco as well.

 

[PK Gaming]

Rosalina, while a rising star in the Mario series (being forced onto us by Nintendo) doesn't have the lasting iconicness Toad has. Bowser Jr. arguably deserves the spot as well, but Toad should have taken it all.

Palutena shouldn't even be in the f***ing game. Kid Icarus doesn't need two reps. I don't care if this is Sakurai's game and he wants to have fun with it, this is a product for the consumers, not the Sakurai.

 

[Karsticles]

Replace Rosalina and Palutena with Toad and Bowser Jr. please.

 

[Loco4Coco]

Where are those quotes from?