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[Beeblebrox]

One quick question before I start playing (total newbie here) - is there any way to get Heroes of the Storm to show up in my B.net desktop client? I've got other games there, but not HotS alpha for some reason (it's in my B.net account on the B.net page, and I got the mail from Blizz saying that I can download and play it now).

 

[dave is ok]

One quick question before I start playing (total newbie here) - is there any way to get Heroes of the Storm to show up in my B.net desktop client? I've got other games there, but not HotS alpha for some reason (it's in my B.net account on the B.net page, and I got the mail from Blizz saying that I can download and play it now).

It should be there. Try restarting it?

 

[Beeblebrox]

It should be there. Try restarting it?

Oh, it's here now, after I activated the download from the web browser. I was expecting it to automatically show up in my B.net client for some reason.

 

[KojiKnight]

Oh, it's here now, after I activated the download from the web browser. I was expecting it to automatically show up in my B.net client for some reason.

You should never have had to download anything at all. Most people had it just show up some (like myself) even had it appear before we got the invite e-mail.

 

[Raxus]

You aren't kidding. I've played 10ish matches with him now and it's just filthy, particularly with the slow. I'm usually at or within striking range of the top in damage and always first or second in healing with the shields...he'll definitely be getting a nerf. To me, this is worse than Li Li was last patch. At least she only dominated "one side of the ball" so to speak.

Li Li was just extremely hard to kill.

Tassadar can do 2 on 1 fights early on and god help you if he gets double psionic field.

 

[Skab]

You know, I think a lot of issues with this game could be addressed if you didn't pick your hero before queuing. The game is essentially Team Fights: The Game, and once you start getting the hang of its mechanics you sort of see how important team comp is. Queuing as someone like, say, Abathur is such a risk because you don't know if you're going to have other characters on your team that pair up really well.

Finding out you have both an Abathur and a Murky on your team is awful, for example.

 

[Turdburger]

Stopped playing this a few days after Li Li and Brightwing were added to do MCAT studying. Have they done enough with the game since then to freshen it up and make it worth going back to?

 

[KojiKnight]

You know, I think a lot of issues with this game could be addressed if you didn't pick your hero before queuing. The game is essentially Team Fights: The Game, and once you start getting the hang of its mechanics you sort of see how important team comp is. Queuing as someone like, say, Abathur is such a risk because you don't know if you're going to have other characters on your team that pair up really well.

Finding out you have both an Abathur and a Murky on your team is awful, for example.

Every match I played Murky and someone else was Abathur we won, though inevitably we had people complain about it at the beginning of the match. It's really not that bad of a combo, you just have to play more aggressively as Murky and actually join in for map objectives (Murky can still be quite good in them, but he has to play hit and run).

Stopped playing this a few days after Li Li and Brightwing were added to do MCAT studying. Have they done enough with the game since then to freshen it up and make it worth going back to?

It takes 30 seconds to join a match and they only last about 20 minutes, just play a round instead of asking intentionally loaded questions.

 

[Gryph]

You know, I think a lot of issues with this game could be addressed if you didn't pick your hero before queuing. The game is essentially Team Fights: The Game, and once you start getting the hang of its mechanics you sort of see how important team comp is. Queuing as someone like, say, Abathur is such a risk because you don't know if you're going to have other characters on your team that pair up really well.

Finding out you have both an Abathur and a Murky on your team is awful, for example.

A lot of these problems should be resolved when the matchmaking system is upgraded. It doesn't seem very good at building team composition.

Of course they could move over to a reactionary system but this has the potential to increase toxic player behavior. "Why would you pick that hero, she sucks" etc. Teams that are working together will already have their team built, pugs shouldn't be subject to ridicule for playing who they want to play.

Stopped playing this a few days after Li Li and Brightwing were added to do MCAT studying. Have they done enough with the game since then to freshen it up and make it worth going back to?

There have been two rebalancing patches since April. Murky and Zagara have been added.

If you didn't enjoy the game before, you probably still won't. If you were having fun then you'll have fun now.

 

[Skab]

Every match I played Murky and someone else was Abathur we won, though inevitably we had people complain about it at the beginning of the match. It's really not that bad of a combo, you just have to play more aggressively as Murky and actually join in for map objectives (Murky can still be quite good in them, but he has to play hit and run).

It really depends on the map. Team fight centered maps, like curse, where you are generally forced into conflict with the enemy team, are rough when you have an abathur back in base and a murky off pushing somewhere. Not that Abathur is back there not doing anything, but just having less bodies overall can be a disadvantage at times.

My overall point still stands though. If I see my teammate picking a solid pusher/specialist, I would be much less inclined to pick someone who fills that same role.

 

[KojiKnight]

Trying out Tassadar for awhile, so far so good. Psystorm is awesome, should have been his move from the beginning.

 

[Alur]

You know, I think a lot of issues with this game could be addressed if you didn't pick your hero before queuing. The game is essentially Team Fights: The Game, and once you start getting the hang of its mechanics you sort of see how important team comp is. Queuing as someone like, say, Abathur is such a risk because you don't know if you're going to have other characters on your team that pair up really well.

Finding out you have both an Abathur and a Murky on your team is awful, for example.

Despite the dissent from KojiKnight...

Every match I played Murky and someone else was Abathur we won...

I have to agree with you. KojiKnight says you have to play more aggressively with Murky, join in team fights, etc. I've seen exactly two Murky's do that. I think your opinion on this is a bit skewed because you seem to be a very intelligent player plus being one of those few who have maxed Murky. Most Murky's are siege siege siege, before or after the patch. Double Murky's is insane, though, when he's making that final core push.

While I will say my win/loss with both Abathur and Murky is more like 50/50, it really depends entirely on the other team. To use a baseball term, if they are above replacement level players, it is definitely much harder than having one or the other plus a Nova or a Falstad, for example.

I'm at the point where I straight up detest playing with Murky. It's not even a matter of winning. I'm usually playing with a person or two and win the majority. I just don't like the drag he is on the team for the better part of the game. I'm sure he's fun to play (as evidenced by how prolific he is in the queues), but no one else seems to like to play with him/against him. I'd take Abathur over him any day in my queue.

Trying out Tassadar for awhile, so far so good. Psystorm is awesome, should have been his move from the beginning.

Tassadar is ridiculous with the damage plus the shielding. Double psi storms, archon, etc. All good stuff and very fun to play. I hear all kinds of complaints about him in games. Malfurion's healing and utility is pretty sweet at this point as well, though I haven't ever tried him. Just seem to play against and with a lot of them since the patch.

 

[Gryph]

I'd take Abathur over him any day in my queue.

Since Abs is on the rotation I've been getting an absurd amount of people who use symbiote on me when I'm playing Brightwing...

Why anyone would think I'd get close enough to the other team to make symbiote useful I'll never know..

 

[Alur]

Since Abs is on the rotation I've been getting an absurd amount of people who use symbiote on me when I'm playing Brightwing...

Why anyone would think I'd get close enough to the other team to make symbiote useful I'll never know..

Eh, just like with any hero you always run into bad ones or the ones who are just learning. My second or third game last night was a two tank, two specialist, one support game where one of the specialists was an Abathur. He was one of those fabled "melee" Abathur's. Kept running in to team fights like a boss. He died 5 or 6 times in the first few minutes and then went AFK in the Nexus and we lost in 11 minutes. Good times.

Last night I started taking note of the heroes I played with. Seven games:

Tassadar in every game (I was the Tassadar in six of seven).
Tyrael in every game (Miletius was Tyrael in three (or maybe four) as we were grouped for a few).
Abathur in four of seven.
Zagara in three of seven.

My point of keeping track was to see how many assassins I was paired with (and there are two free assassins in the rotation) because there never seem to be any, as we've discussed. In seven games...

...four assassins. Illidan twice. Tychus once. Nova once. There were only assassins in 3 of 7 games. I said wow.

 

[Proven]

And to think, a couple weeks back and the game had too many Assassins and no Support players.

 

[Alur]

And to think, a couple weeks back and the game had too many Assassins and no Support players.

Yeah, there were a ton of 3 assassin/1 tank/1 support when I started last patch.

What assassins are actually at the top of the pecking order for you guys?

I find Falstad very strong, and Kerrigan of course. Maybe Valla too...outside of that they are middling at best. I don't know that I'd take any assassin outside of those first two over Tassadar atm with the damage and area denial he puts out + the shields bonus.

On the other hand, you've got Brightwing, buffed Malfurion, buffed Tassadar, Uther who is pretty strong, and Li Li who is still strong for support.

Only Stitches and a well played ETC or very well played Arthas for tanks, IMO.

Pushing level 30 now, still having a ton of fun playing. Definitely noticed a big uptick in the number of players the last few days with the Europeans finally getting in.

 

[Gryph]

What assassins are actually at the top of the pecking order for you guys?

I haven't spent enough time with them to really judge. I'm enjoying Kerrigan's bruiser style, although I'm mainly just practicing after getting called out for being a bad Kerrigan player in Vs. I figured I should at least spend a bit of time practing the hook and stun combo...

I've seen a lot of people really clean house with Valla, her DPS output is really high, she's a little fragile but 1v1 she seems pretty great...

I'd like to pick up Falstad and give him a shot as well, but that'll have to wait.

Also, I've got an old Mumble server that's not being used much these days. I'd be happy to put out the info in this thread if it's something ya'll want to use to coordinate...

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

Newbies. Newbies everywhere.

 

[Proven]

I forgot to mention I finished all hero quests for Hammer on Thursday. Whenever I play her, I wonder why I bother buying any other characters. Then I remember hero quests and party queues.

Warriors overall seem like they're in a stronger place because all of them had their damage increased, Assassins got nerfed overall, and Warriors pack the CC. The current speed of Assassin kills is as fast as I'd ever like it to be (with Nova and Zeratul being on the extremes for melee and ranged) so right now it's a balancing act on getting Warriors and Supports at the right level.

The funny thing about GAFfers is that I'm never on at the same time as them 4 out of 5 log ins.

 

[Gryph]

[

Bad news guys... We didn't win...

 

[Rokam]

I really really love Uther. Guess it shouldn't be a shock because Paladins are my favorite class, but his ability to turn around a fight is just fantastic. Had a Tyrael on my team fleeing from a Valla & Illidan, throw immune on him, heal, shield, stun one of them and shrink the other... easiest turn around ever. Although I do kinda hope they add in a talent to increase range on Hammer. Wish they'd go ahead and release his Judgement skin as it's the only one I'd ever buy.

Just dinged 31.... so close yet so far.

 

[Raxus]

Uther is fine as is apart from his immune ultimate which needs to be reworked since it is practically worthless in team fights. An increase to his hammer range would make him one of the best characters in the game. Team supports would be winning lol.

 

[bemusedchunk]

I got into this alpha back in early April I believe.

While I LOVED the teamfights and all the classic Blizzard style, I couldn't stand how people never paid attention to the map objectives. In fact, I dislike the fact that wins/losses hinged on completing the map objective. Is this still the case?

I love Dota 2 and the entire MOBA/ARTS genre and HOTS was where I enjoyed it the most (with the added bonus of having 30 mins games).

Have things been updated well? Or are my concerns still valid?

 

[Raxus]

Have things been updated well? Or are my concerns still valid?

Depends the team composition. Map objectives can't be completely ignored but you can give up on them once or twice and still pull ahead.

I'd say your concerns are still valid but the recent changes have alleviated things quite a bit.

 

[bemusedchunk]

Depends the team composition. Map objectives can't be completely ignored but you can give up on them once or twice and still pull ahead.

I'd say your concerns are still valid but the recent changes have alleviated things quite a bit.

Thanks.
I'll re-install one of these days and check how things are.

 

[Boogdud]

I'm so sick of not being in this alpha.

 

[Alur]

Bad news guys... We didn't win...

Naturally, since we were just talking about that!

Although I do kinda hope they add in a talent to increase range on Hammer. Wish they'd go ahead and release his Judgement skin as it's the only one I'd ever buy.

Just dinged 31.... so close yet so far.

An increase to his hammer range would make him one of the best characters in the game. Team supports would be winning lol.

I'm with Raxus. If they increase the range on Hammer, which is already annoying as hell anyway on that 8 sec cooldown (not counting if you took the one to reduce the CD), it'd be way out of balance. Supports are already immensely popular (and possibly dominating) as is.

I just hit 31 last night too though. Unlocked all the skin tints on Tassadar and have the 40 games quests for 3 million EXP left. Gotta play 8 more games to finish maxing Li Li and get that 3 million.

While I LOVED the teamfights and all the classic Blizzard style, I couldn't stand how people never paid attention to the map objectives. In fact, I dislike the fact that wins/losses hinged on completing the map objective. Is this still the case?

Have things been updated well? Or are my concerns still valid?

It's still an objective game if that's what you want to know. They way they state it, that's how it'll always be. If you didn't like that part it's probably not gonna do it for ya.

I've never had a recurring issue with people ignoring pings. Sometimes there's a bad game every four or five, but for the most part between pinging and explaining in chat the pugs fall in line.

Personally, I've grown from anger at losing to finding enjoyment in doing unorthodox things strategy wise or sneaking a few kills in when the enemy least expects it in games like that where everyone else is new or an idiot. If all else fails, I'll just go berserker on them and pump damage siege wise or hero wise to see how high I can get it. The reward for winning is a measly 25,000 EXP, so it's not really worth even being concerned about at this point if you get in a game that bad. If you're playing with a friend, the win bonus is completely negated.

You sound like you had fun with it, but you say you didn't like the main part of it, so I don't know what to tell you. The best method is adding any good players you have in a game to your group and play together. Makes the game 100% better.

 

[bakeray]

So I used the gold I had to purchase my first character, Illidan, and he seems to be pretty underwhelming atm. I've been doing well with ETC and Raynor, who are the champs that are strong currently? I think I'm eventually gonna throw down on the bundle so I was trying to get champs who aren't already included in that with my original purchase, any suggestions?

Also I've been meaning to send Veggie or Miletius an invite but you always seem to be have just started a game when I get on/am between games.

 

[Alur]

So I used the gold I had to purchase my first character, Illidan, and he seems to be pretty underwhelming atm. I've been doing well with ETC and Raynor, who are the champs that are strong currently? I think I'm eventually gonna throw down on the bundle so I was trying to get champs who aren't already included in that with my original purchase, any suggestions?

Also I've been meaning to send Veggie or Miletius an invite but you always seem to be have just started a game when I get on/am between games.

All IMO of course...Brightwing, Tassadar, and Malfurion/Uther/Li Li are the strongest supports (nearly every support, really). Valla, Kerrigan, Falstad seem to be the strongest assassins. Stitches and Sonya seem to be the strongest tanks/warriors, but ETC and Arthas can be amazing as well if you know them.

Four more games til Li Li is maxed...almost there.

 

[Gryph]

So I used the gold I had to purchase my first character, Illidan, and he seems to be pretty underwhelming atm. I've been doing well with ETC and Raynor, who are the champs that are strong currently? I think I'm eventually gonna throw down on the bundle so I was trying to get champs who aren't already included in that with my original purchase, any suggestions?

Also I've been meaning to send Veggie or Miletius an invite but you always seem to be have just started a game when I get on/am between games.

Anytime man. Let me know.

As for strong heroes. I'd say Tychus, Uther, Brightwing, and Tassadar are some really strong picks. Stitches and Kerrigan are pretty great but they have pretty specific move sequences that you need to learn to be really effective as them. Stitches' hook skill shot and Kerrigan's sweep and stun respectively.

 

[Raxus]

Quick purchase tips from me:

1) Never buy Raynor. He is a staple in every rotation. I dunno why he isn't free.
2) Avoid expensive purchases until you have thoroughly tried a hero out
3) Recommended purchases in order of importance (subject to change with a patch):
Support: Tassadar (Archeon), Malfurion (Silence/Treant), Uther (mass stun)
Tank: None (more later)
Specialist: Gazlowe (TNT build)
Assassin: Valla (Strafe if no stun present), Tyrion (Mech), Kerrigan

Reasoning: Support is INCREDIBLY strong right now and cheap to purchase. With the exception of Uther, my other 2 suggestions can solo easy camps fairly early on and work great in a team/alone. Uther isn't great solo but he is the best +1 in the game. Multiple stuns. Strong heals/damage and very flexible. Just never get his invincibility since it sucks late game.

I don't hate tanks but they are hard to recommend since their solo potential is nil. I do love ETC, Sonya, Diablo, and Stitches though. Pick one up after you have a team/a handle on one you like. Typically this class requires you to heavily play things by ear from match to match. Consider this an expert class.

Gazlowe is an easy specialist pick since he starts strong and only gets stronger as you progress. TNT build means you can start taking camps early solo and you can take hard camps as soon as you hit level 4. Watch out for invisible heroes and SGT hammer. Get the gravity bomb ultimate every time.

Assassin is weird. They SHOULD be the carries but are paper tigers. Valla goes tons of damage fast if no stun is present and can rush down heroes. Tyrion can do serious work an has 2 life bars with his ultimate and his grenade can work as a finisher/get a hero out of position. Shame about his range though. Kerrigan is great and one of the few assassins that can solo easy camps and take little damage with zerglings. Shame she costs 10k. Assassins need to constantly be mobile NEVER stay in a lane unless you plan on taking a tower. Consider this class intermediate.

Other general tip: if your hero has res in 5 seconds get it. The more powerful ultimate may seem like a good choice if you are curb stomping a group but a buyback (for DOTA fans) is invaluable in most scenarios and limits the odds of a comeback/major screw up.

That said almost every hero is great in the right hands. I just feel my selections are the easiest to learn.

Amy comments, suggestions?

 

[Alur]

Finally after ignoring it for a few weeks.

Now back to Tassadar fun time. Nothing quite like red Transformer Tassadar dropping piles of lightning everywhere.

 

[rakhir]

So i just got the key and played few matches with Tyrael and Raynor and my question is:
Tyrael is garbage-tier, right? He does so little dmg that i didn't knew if he is hitting anyone or not. And he is really squishy at the same time, i don't know what his purpose is.

Raynor on the other hand was killing fool right and left, pretty fun.

 

[Alur]

So i just got the key and played few matches with Tyrael and Raynor and my question is:
Tyrael is garbage-tier, right? He does so little dmg that i didn't knew if he is hitting anyone or not. And he is really squishy at the same time, i don't know what his purpose is.

Raynor on the other hand was killing fool right and left, pretty fun.

I have two or three guys on my friends list who "main" Tyrael and I've not really heard any complaints. If anything, he's stuck right in the middle where a lot of the heroes are in that a new player will likely do badly and an experienced player can wreck shop with him.

In my experience, he's not squishy whatsoever. He's quite hard to kill in comparison to most and seems to continually live long enough to be a pest. He doesn't do a lot of damage though, that much is true, though spec'd properly he can do alright from what I hear. His role seems to be to soak damage, nab runners, and generally harass the opposition at any kind of control or objective point.

And Raynor is just Raynor. He's not the best, but he's good and he's easy to get a grasp on. He's kind of the gateway drug to the other ranged assassins though, it seems. Rarely see anyone stick with him for too long since he's always available. Raynor gets perpetually friend zoned by HotS players.

 

[ZPs]

Since people are talking about hero power in this thread I figured I'd swing by and drop where I currently have hero power ranked. The list below is based off of both scrim results as well as personal theorycrafting. Below the list is some analysis as to why things have been arranged this way.


Top Tier (IE: All respectable picks in scrims with a high success rate. Generally the Heroes with the largest degree of power in the current game)


DPS - Kerrigan, Valla, Falstad, Tychus, Barbarian (she's played as a DPS)

Support - Uther, Brightwing, Tassadar, Malfurion

Tanks - Diablo, Arthas, ETC, Stitches



Middle Tier (Situational picks, lacking in the raw power of the tier above but can be good in specific team comps)


DPS - Raynor, Nova, Zeratul

Support - Tyrande

Tanks - Tyrael

Specialists - Hammer, Abathur


Low Tier (Even more situational than the above, infrequently used. Fatal flaws)


Support - LiLi

Specialists - Zagara, Nazeebo, Gazlowe



Bottom Tier (Practically never picked or used)

Tanks - Muradin

Specialists - Murky


Illidan Tier

DPS - Illidan


I think the biggest thing people might take issue with on this list is the placement of LiLi. LiLi's problem is that she's disproportionately powerful in pubs relative to her status in organized play. Organized play is characterized by both small and large combinations of hero skills that lead to people dying (ie: Uther stunning someone and a hero like Diablo then displacing them with slam --> push). Not only does LiLi lack the ability to combo with other heroes in that way, but she also has a problem defending herself against those combos. This isn't a problem for her in pubs because people rarely have good coordination on their abilities, but it's nothing short of crippling for her in a competitive environment. The end result is that she's far less valued than the other supports who can bring healing + CC instead of merely healing.

Specialists definitely have some issues in the current game. The best performing specialists are Hammer and Abathur, and that really only stems from the fact that Hammer is effectively just a slow moving DPS hero, and Abathur ends up merely cloning a regular hero in the end. I think the root problem probably stems from the fact that the game is most heavily rewarding fast and aggressive rotations with a full team of five (with good combat power) - something that tends to overly punish the attempted gameplan of most specialist heroes.

As far as Illidan goes - he's without doubt the worst hero in the game. His health and damage are severely handicapped to compensate for the theoretically godliness of his kit. As a result, he's the sword guy from Indiana Jones -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mur-c5IiWJI

I think that covers most of it.

 

[ZPs]

So i just got the key and played few matches with Tyrael and Raynor and my question is:
Tyrael is garbage-tier, right? He does so little dmg that i didn't knew if he is hitting anyone or not. And he is really squishy at the same time, i don't know what his purpose is.

Raynor on the other hand was killing fool right and left, pretty fun.

Tyrael is in a weird spot. His Q-W-E kit is rather weak and underwhelming in his current form. He ends up needing talents to get baseline levels of effectiveness on some of his skills relative to the insane power that some of the other tanks get (Arthas says "hi"). On the other hand, both of his ults offer some incredible power depending on the team that's built around him. Power to the point that sometimes Tyrael gets picked specifically for the ability to say, dive in on a DPS and have immediate follow up from his team. Basically, you don't want to pick Tyrael without some sort of plan. Common setups would be doing something like Tyrael/Nova in where the Tyrael dives in on some DPS (ie: Valla) and a Nova drops an overdrive precision strike combo on top of her during the stun duration.

 

[Raxus]

I strongly disagree with gazlowe as low tier. His abilities when picked right make for great early pressure. He is one of the few heroes that can solo early on too. He just takes camps faster if one person comes to help.

Tyreal, like most tanks, doesn't do much solo but he shines in a team with a great slow ability and stun ultimate. On top of it he is hard to kill in the right hands.

 

[ZPs]

I strongly disagree with gazlowe as low tier. His abilities when picked right make for great early pressure. He is one of the few heroes that can solo early on too. He just takes camps faster if one person comes to help.

Tyreal, like most tanks, doesn't do much solo but he shines in a team with a great slow ability and stun ultimate. On top of it he is hard to kill in the right hands.

Like I said, the list isn't merely just personal opinion, it's also taking into account preferences people have in scrims. Gazlowe (on the rare occasions he is picked) is usually thrown into wombo combo style compositions. These teams from my observations end up losing the vast majority of games they're tried in (probably why Gazlowe isn't played much).


Gazlowe's problem is that he's incapable of fighting on the level of a normal hero when his ult isn't up, and he can't really solo take merc camps in a game that's at least even. Players are too smart in relation to player positioning (aka, the quickly noticed absence of a Gazlowe) to allow a Gazlowe free reign if they're capable of challenging it. Basically, you're only seeing value out of Gazlowe under the following circumstances -

1.) Wombo Combo setups.

- The problem here is that Gazlowe usually needs to be setup by other people, and if your team is landing your setup to begin with you probably could have ended the fight cleanly with any non-Gazlowe hero as well.

2.) When you're ahead by two levels.

- If the enemy team somehow screwed up and fell 2 levels behind it can be hard to deal with a Gazlowe. The reason why it's hard to deal with Gazlowe in this case is because a Gazlowe's team is almost capable of fighting you 4v5 at this point, so getting through them to intercept at merc camps is rather difficult.

3.) When the other team is bad at the game.

- Bad players won't intercept Gazlowe at merc camps regardless of game circumstances.

For point number one, you can make an argument to bring some other hero to your composition in place of Gazlowe. Because the other hero is going to offer far better non-ult fighting capability on top of good skill combos.

For point number two, it's usually the case that the team would have won with or without the Gazlowe. Simply because Gazlowe isn't going to be contributing a whole lot to initially getting his team ahead of another team (particularly as they fight what amounts to a 4.5 v 5 due to Gazlowe's low combat power).

Point number three is just a quirk of pubs. Certain heroes will be more effective in lower MMR games where people don't effectively employ counters. This doesn't have a bearing on the hero's overall power in the game (unless you were making a low MMR tier list, in which case Gazlowe would definitely rate higher).

 

[Raxus]

You imply Gazlowe doesn't have a good team to support him either. I think on a side where both teams are even Gazlowe can do some serious work if not focused on.

 

[ZPs]

You imply Gazlowe doesn't have a good team to support him either. I think on a side where both teams are even Gazlowe can do some serious work if not focused on.

I'm talking about the opportunity cost of having a Gazlowe on your team since things don't happen in a vacuum. I mean for reference, a standard example of a power composition right now would be something along the lines of -

Kerrigan, Arthas, Valla, Malfurion, Tassadar

(Note: Associated replay from a scrim with that team lineup - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62698906/ArthasExample.StormReplay)

I really don't think you can make a compelling pro/con argument in favor of dropping a hero from that lineup in favor of Gazlowe. The power drop off from any one of those Heroes to Gazlowe is rather staggering. It's for that reason specifically that Gazlowe doesn't see a whole lot of play - his strengths relative to other heroes don't offset his prominent weaknesses.

 

[Proven]

ZP, your complaint about Li Li's lack of CC is probably the entire reason Water Dragon exists and even had its slow buffed (not that it's good).

 

[ZPs]

ZP, your complaint about Li Li's lack of CC is probably the entire reason Water Dragon exists and even had its slow buffed (not that it's good).

Aside from what's already been written, LiLi's main problem is that she's playing in a Hero category of utter monsters. Comparing her to the three main heroes that provide healing competition...

Uther - Spammable non-skillshot stun, long duration stun ult.

Malfurion - Large zoning root, three second silence.

Brightwing - 2 second hard disable, superior mobility, outright better healing by a considerable margin, better survivability

Even in a draft situation it's relatively rare for a team to not end up with at least one of the above heroes. Which means that it's pretty hard to ever make a good justification for playing LiLi at her current level of power.

 

[Miletius]

Eh, I have been playing Tyreal quite a bit, and like him. He kind of straddles the line between tank and support and is incredibly mobile to boot. I think he excels in kind of a team fight/push support role, as he can shield, jump in and out of combat easily, and after level 10, stun to set up combos or help the team escape.

His explosion on death ability kind of sucks though. But I also have an innate dislike for "x on death abilities" since that means that you'll need to die to take advantage of it.

Edit: I'm always up for more games, if you give me a tap while I'm in game I'll usually wait until you are out again and we can team up. That is, as long as I have time to play a couple of rounds that is.

 

[Alur]

Since people are talking about hero power in this thread I figured I'd swing by and drop where I currently have hero power ranked...

I agree with the vast majority of this in the context you're giving (ie: competitive games, not pub queuing).

My only changes would be to move Muradin up at least one tier due to his own CC and how I've seen teams utilizing it in combos, Tyrande down a tier because I simply have not found a viable use for her in any team outside of the times when people walk right into her stun, and move Diablo down because while his slam and push combo is neat and he can take a pounding, he hits like trash and his Fire Stomp is garbage of the top flight variety. I've seen some good Diablo players, but none that would make me think I'd want him over any of the other three tanks you listed.

I think the biggest thing people might take issue with on this list is the placement of LiLi. LiLi's problem is that she's disproportionately powerful in pubs relative to her status in organized play...

This was my thought as I was maining her in the last patch and particularly the last two days when maxing her out after playing Tassadar and Brightwing. She was ridiculous in regular queues, but any time I went against an actual team she was easily neutralized. Even more so now because her jug healing was reduced and her getaway passive was nerfed.

As far as Illidan goes - he's without doubt the worst hero in the game. His health and damage are severely handicapped to compensate for the theoretically godliness of his kit. As a result, he's the sword guy from Indiana Jones.

That's the thing, though.

How would you buff him without making him instantly better than all the other assassins? It literally would not take a lot for him to go from zero to proverbial hero. In pub queues he is still quite capable of wrecking due to the fact that players can't run from him. I'm not sure how a buff would translate to the competitive side of things, but in the casual sphere it would be brutal for a lot of folks.

The problem here is that Gazlowe usually needs to be setup by other people, and if your team is landing your setup to begin with you probably could have ended the fight cleanly with any non-Gazlowe hero as well.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head for every specialist outside of Abathur and (depending on the player) Hammer in my experience, and that's just from casual group queueing and some sparse 5v5's.

You imply Gazlowe doesn't have a good team to support him either. I think on a side where both teams are even Gazlowe can do some serious work if not focused on.

He's not discounting Gazlowe doesn't have a good team. He's saying even if Gazlowe has a good team, nearly any other hero is a better pick because they contribute more to the fight.

Gazlowe mows down merc camps...so does Tassadar if you want him to. He also shields for a healthy amount each game and does great damage. There's several others in that same vein. It might take them another level or three to hit those camps the same way, but it's well worth the trade.

Aside from what's already been written, LiLi's main problem is that she's playing in a Hero category of utter monsters. Comparing her to the three main heroes that provide healing competition...

Uther - Spammable non-skillshot stun, long duration stun ult.

Malfurion - Large zoning root, three second silence.

Brightwing - 2 second hard disable, superior mobility, outright better healing by a considerable margin, better survivability

Even in a draft situation it's relatively rare for a team to not end up with at least one of the above heroes. Which means that it's pretty hard to ever make a good justification for playing LiLi at her current level of power.

And back to Li Li, that's how I've felt as I completed her play 40 games quest. Malfurion is a monster right now, IMO, and Brightwing is insane though it has been hard adjusting to the phase nerf.

 

[Gryph]

Ya'll are making me feel like an old man in here.

This is probably the thing that I dislike the most about the MOBA scene.

That's not to say that I think you're wrong, you all sound on point, but I just can't get into the e-sport mindset. I want to play the hero that I find fun...

Different strokes I guess...

 

[lyrick]

The best thing about all the Specialists is the ability to totally avoid all the 5V5 BS and still win the match.

With any two on a team a lane can be pushed quicker than shit (with or without mercs). If you're a fan of 9-14 minute games Specialists are the real deal.

If you like the 15 - 20+ minute stuff run around the map and 5V5 to your hearts content.

 

[Alur]

Ya'll are making me feel like an old man in here.

This is probably the thing that I dislike the most about the MOBA scene.

That's not to say that I think you're wrong, you all sound on point, but I just can't get into the e-sport mindset. I want to play the hero that I find fun...

Different strokes I guess...

I think you're taking it the wrong way. For me it has nothing to do with the "e-sports mindset". I can't commit the time to play that much either.

For me it's a topic of conversation. IMO there's not much else to talk about in relation to this game currently other than bragging about a game you won or bitching about one you lost, hence the discussion.

A lot of people in any game want to know what's best and what's terrible - particularly in a class/hero based environment. MMO threads, Diablo threads, this thread, etc, all filled with that stuff.

I'm (personally) not interested in playing a hero that is abjectly worse than several others of the same class if it's going to hurt the others I play with in a game, even if they are just pugs. To me that's not being competitive, that's being considerate. It's why I detest Murky. The playstyle he is typically used in within the regular public queues (and seems to have been originally designed for) is one of ignore everything else and pew pew at some towers.

All that said, if you're just queuing up solo or with some buddies or whatever, everything in the game is viable for the most part. I have never played a game in a party yet where someone was like "don't play that hero" and hopefully I never will.

 

[Gryph]

I'm (personally) not interested in playing a hero that is abjectly worse than several others of the same class if it's going to hurt the others I play with in a game, even if they are just pugs. To me that's not being competitive, that's being considerate. It's why I detest Murky. The playstyle he is typically used in within the regular public queues (and seems to have been originally designed for) is one of ignore everything else and pew pew at some towers.

Hahaha, I'm sorry for coming off as more curmudgeonly than intended. I'm just feeling in a weird spot with this game.

I have a lot of fun playing it, but I can see there's a serious skill / dedication gap in place. I guess I'm just worried that as the game gets closer to release the community will shift more and more to the hardcore, the people I see advertising teams with 5 hours of practice time a day.

That said, of course I find the character interactions and complementary skill crafting very interesting and I'd never want to pick a character that actively handicaps my teammates. I'd just like to have a group of folks who are comfy with pick-up-play and don't mind mixing up the composition if people want to try something new.

I don't have the desire, dedication or frankly the reaction time to join the NFL, but I'm worried there won't be anyone interested in a causal weekend league...

 

[Kioshen]

Well understanding the metagame and observing where it's going is one way to enjoy a game (I did enjoy that brief snippet of where the metagame is currently). There's always a place for a more casual approach especially the way this game is built. Just keep queuing in the normal versus queue and it'll be fine.

Even in Dota 2 you can queue up in modes that are more relaxed. You don't always need to queue ranked to have fun in a moba.

 

[ToyMachine228]

This is currently on the top of my most wanted list. What I wouldn't do for an alpha invite!