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[JoeInky]

Why though? I like when characters that I want playable like Lyn and Waluigi appear as assist trophies. It gives them a significant appearance in the game and lets them interact with all the other characters. Sure, a playable appearance is preferred, but it's the next best thing.

Waluigi and Lyn are third-tier characters in franchises that already have representatives, the mario series even gets it's own playable villain.


Having characters that don't have any limitations to them being playable from a design perspective (too awkward to implement or whatever) that are from a game series that currently has no representative is really stupid if you ask me, especially if you're a fan of that series.

 

[Toxi]

Not for SSB4, I'm talking about his wings within the confines of the 2D games. Kind of OT for this thread, but whatever. Ridley's always had some major advantages over the player in a platforming, contact-hurts environment:

- Floor-sweeping projectiles
- The tail swipe
- Grabbing the player
- Extreme mobility compared to the other bosses

Now, something like Yakuza (spider asshole in Fusion) is a different case because they were making you fight the embodiment of the Space Jump, but the Super Metroid fight is specifically designed to emphasize verticality. You've acquired the Space Jump and the creators want you to use it in order to get the jump on Ridley, avoiding his projectiles and raining down Super Missiles on him. In the Zero Mission fight, while the arena is a little wider, having larger wings would make it difficult to attack him from behind, meaning you wouldn't have an easy "out" from avoiding his tail swipe and claw-grab attacks. Notice that in Super, Ridley's hunched position, even when roaring, is vertical and rectangular, just like the arena you're fighting him in. Enlarging the wings would break that, because you're essentially playing Pong on steroids in this case, but going around him repeatedly instead of side-to-side.

Now, in a "pitfalls kill" environment like in Smash in contrast to a "touching things hurts" environment like in Metroid, Ridley's wings work way better being larger, because you don't necessarily have to worry about losing vital health, and on top of that Ridley doesn't have to occupy the same platform as you. Brawl handled it well with a variety of platform and aerial attacks, including flapping up winds to try and push you off the platform, which is much better-suited for Smash's "edges kill you" environment.

This is a very good analysis of Ridley's boss fight.

The most recent Metroid game is a steaming pile of Bendezium. Wait, Other M came out 2 years after Brawl! How could Samus's design come from it?

LOL

I meant Metroid Prime 2, but you're right that it came across that way.

 

[Ryce]

Waluigi and Lyn are third-tier characters in franchises that already have representatives, the mario series even gets it's own playable villain.

But Dark Samus, Dillon, Saki, Isaac, and Ray are also third-tier characters in their own respect. (Dillon, Saki, and Ray definitely are, anyway.)

 

[Kouichi]

Having characters that don't have any limitations to them being playable from a design perspective (too awkward to implement or whatever) that are from a game series that currently has no representative is really stupid if you ask me, especially if you're a fan of that series.

It's not stupid. The fact that I'm a fan of the series is what makes it so cool and appealing.

The thought of having K.Rool just dropping in during Smash Run and start tossing his crown around while I have to fight him with Palutena sounds really awesome and it's the kind of cool scenario you can only get from a game like Smash Bros.

 

[Kyzon]

Yeah I know of Ganondorf. I'd argue that Ganon's easy to do because he's humanoid. Ridley's representation in Brawl is pretty perfect in proportion and balance.

Still the perfect sized Smash Ridley to me

 

[ffdgh]

Still the perfect sized Smash Ridley to me

At the cost of not having a tail

 

[Beelzebufo]

Still the perfect sized Smash Ridley to me

But he's huge in that picture, and only appears smaller because he's really far away.

 

[MrSaturn99]

well I see weekend gaff's here in full force

But he's huge in that picture, and only appears smaller because he's really far away.

This is how I've always seen it.

 

[User 73706]

Still the perfect sized Smash Ridley to me

In hindsight, Ridley in that pic looks like a straight-up Spore Creature Creator monster.

 

[Caladrius]

He looks to be about 13 feet/3.9m tall in that picture.

In hindsight, Ridley in that pic looks like a straight-up Spore Creature Creator monster.

I'm trying to figure out what's up with his legs.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Still the perfect sized Smash Ridley to me

I thought that was a perspective weirdness?

I still think Brawl Ridley is best when it comes to size and ferocity.

 

[superNESjoe]

Waluigi and Lyn are third-tier characters in franchises that already have representatives, the mario series even gets it's own playable villain.

Not to focus too literally on your previous examples, but this is exactly the same case with Ridley and, I guess more importantly to you, K. Rool.

K. Rool is not a top-tier character in relation to the Donkey Kong franchise. He wasn't there from its conception, he isn't there in its modern iteration. He existed for a short period during Rare's reign of DKC.

Am I arguing against how cool he would be as a character? No, but I am arguing against the selective nature of your logic.

 

[Kyzon]

At the cost of not having a tail

That can be added easily

But he's huge in that picture, and only appears smaller because he's really far away.

I thought that was a perspective weirdness?

I still think Brawl Ridley is best when it comes to size and ferocity.

He's about Brawl Bowser size I think

In hindsight, Ridley in that pic looks like a straight-up Spore Creature Creator monster.

That's insulting to Ridley XD

 

[Toxi]

Holy shit, I never realized Melee intro Ridley lacked a tail. 0_o

 

[J@hranimo]

The funny thing to me about Samus in the Melee intro video is that it looks like she's shooting bullets instead of beam shots lol.

 

[User 73706]

Is that Samus strafe foreshadowing Prime's dodge mechanic?

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

So how many people back in the day thought Ridley was playable based off that video?

 

[Kriken]

Holy shit, I never realized Melee intro Ridley lacked a tail. 0_o

Neither did I, learn something new everyday

 

[Kyzon]

Is that Samus strafe foreshadowing Prime's dodge mechanic?

Other M's one for sure

So how many people back in the day thought Ridley was playable based off that video?

A ton probably. The crowd went hype at the reveal

 

[Toxi]

Is that Samus strafe foreshadowing Prime's dodge mechanic?

There are homing missiles in Melee...

But it looks like just a jump to me.

A ton probably. The crowd went hype at the reveal

They went hype because A. It's been so long since Super Metroid and B. a new Metroid game titled "Metroid Prime" was coming out soon.

They might have assumed he was in since Jigglypuff was in (I remember people being disappointed about Falco instead of Wolf), but I don't think that's the reason for their hype.

 

[Beelzebufo]

That can be added easily

He's about Brawl Bowser size I think

That's insulting to Ridley XD

If you compare his size when he's right next to Samus, he's actually much larger than Brawl Bowser. He's closer to Brawl Ridley.

 

[DaBoss]

Remember guys, it is pointless.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

But he's huge in that picture, and only appears smaller because he's really far away.

Samus flips over him though and appears to be standing right next to the hallway wall.

Remember guys, it is pointless.

You should add this to the OT title suggestions

 

[Loco4Coco]

The only real "big" thing about Ridley is it's wings.

 

[JoeInky]

But Dark Samus, Dillon, Saki, Isaac, and Ray are also third-tier characters in their own respect. (Dillon, Saki, and Ray definitely are, anyway.)

But they are third tier characters in franchises that already have playable representatives, the mario franchise also has a villain, I'd rank a fire emblem villain like the black knight over lyn any day.

Dillon, Saki and Ray aren't considered third tier within their franchise though, and I'm of the opinion that every franchise that is going to be in smash should, when feasible, have at least a playable main character and then after that they can have more main characters but they should atleast have a villain.

Saki, Isaac and Ray as playable would be much higher on my list than the likes of palutena and rosalina because of this. Hell, I HATE Mii Fighter but it's a better inclusion in terms of representation then either of those are.

It's not stupid. The fact that I'm a fan of the series is what makes it so cool and appealing.

The thought of having K.Rool just dropping in during Smash Run and start tossing his crown around while I have to fight him with Palutena sounds really awesome and it's the kind of cool scenario you can only get from a game like Smash Bros.

But you know what sounds more awesome? Being able to play against another player who's playing as K. Rool and not just against some dumb AI, that's the kind of cool scenario you can only get from smash bros and it's much more interesting that just fighting against an AI.

Not to focus too literally on your previous examples, but this is exactly the same case with Ridley and, I guess more importantly to you, K. Rool.

K. Rool is not a top-tier character in relation to the Donkey Kong franchise. He wasn't there from its conception, he isn't there in its modern iteration. He existed for a short period during Rare's reign of DKC.

Am I arguing against how cool he would be as a character? No, but I am arguing against the selective nature of your logic.

Again, I think every franchise should have a playable character and villain where feasible, K. Rool is still the main antagonist of the DK series, the tikis and the snowmads are both unlikely to be seen again in the franchise and have only been in one game so you can't consider them the main, iconic DK villain, saying that just because he wasn't in the latest game means he shouldn't be in is like saying that ghirahim should replace ganon in sm4sh.

Ridley is less feasible and I'd actually settle for a dark samus samus clone over having zero suit samus any day of the week, just because I have no interest in ZSS and desperately want a Metroid villain.

What I'm saying only sounds selective if you take each of my specific points by themeselves and not as part of the ongoing conversation I've been having.

 

[Kyzon]

There are homing missiles in Melee...

But it looks like just a jump to me.


They went hype because A. It's been so long since Super Metroid and B. a new Metroid game titled "Metroid Prime" was coming out soon.

They might have assumed he was in since Jigglypuff was in (I remember people being disappointed about Falco instead of Wolf), but I don't think that's the reason for their hype.

I like to think that everyone had just re-played Super Metroid and thought he was playable. Please don't kill my vibe.

If you compare his size when he's right next to Samus, he's actually much larger than Brawl Bowser. He's closer to Brawl Ridley.

I'm not seeing it. When Ridley crashes right next to Samus, I'd say he looks to stand about a foot over her. He's always hunched over like Bowser in Melee/Brawl so I'd argue that he wouldn't even be that tall at all times.


Edit: I'd laugh my ass off if he's playable and he inherits the Bowser Mobile run from Melee and Brawl.

 

[Toxi]

Dark Samus is not third-tier. She's one of the main villains of Metroid, up there with Mother Brain (Also a main villain in several games) and Ridley (most consistent villain even if he's never the main bad guy).

If you compare his size when he's right next to Samus, he's actually much larger than Brawl Bowser. He's closer to Brawl Ridley.

He's nowhere near Brawl Ridley's size. Brawl Ridley's head is bigger than Samus and his feet are bigger than Samus' torso.

Speaking of size, Ridley switches size so much it's not even consistent in one game. In Corruption, Omega Ridley was smaller than Meta Ridley, even though he was supposed to be stronger thanks to becoming a Leviathan guardian. Weird.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

The only real "big" thing about Ridley is it's wings.

I mean.. No. He's a massive bastard in most portrayals.

 

[Kyzon]

He's nowhere near Brawl Ridley's size. Brawl Ridley's head is bigger than Samus and his feet are bigger than Samus' torso.

Speaking of size, Ridley switches size so much it's not even consistent in one game. In Corruption, Omega Ridley was smaller than Meta Ridley, even though he was supposed to be stronger thanks to becoming a Leviathan guardian. Weird.

Ridley in Brawl is the same size as Jet Blue right? Or whatever Falcon's ship is called.

Edit: Little smaller

 

[Boss Doggie]

Samus flips over him though and appears to be standing right next to the hallway wall.

Nah, Ridley zooms to the screen which was originally Samus's position and he got big

 

[Beelzebufo]

The only real "big" thing about Ridley is it's wings.

This isn't true at all.

Samus flips over him though and appears to be standing right next to the hallway wall.

You should add this to the OT title suggestions

He moves much faster than Samus, so he travels much farther than she does. If you freeze frame it, he's huge in relation to her.

 

[Kyzon]

Dark Samus has 4 games named after her and is in 3 of them.

She's literally Metroid Prime.

 

[Anth0ny]

Mewtwo =(

 

[PadWarrior]

Mewtwo =(

Dem feels

 

[Toxi]

Ridley in Brawl is the same size as Jet Blue right? Or whatever Falcon's ship is called.

That was Meta Ridley (Aka Ridley back from the dead a cyborg). Meta Ridley's a lot smaller than the flier, but he seems overall bigger than Ridley (longer tail and much bigger wings, similarly-sized head).

Speaking of Meta Ridley, Meta Ridley's Brawl form has some significant differences from Prime's Meta Ridley in the head region. I think Sakurai made them so that Meta Ridley was more identifiable as "cyborg Ridley" instead of "robot Ridley", since there wasn't a scan visor to tell you about it. His tail is also much smaller, but we can chalk that up to not needing a long tail to sweep the arena like in Prime.

 

[superNESjoe]

Again, I think every franchise should have a playable character and villain where feasible, K. Rool is still the main antagonist of the DK series, the tikis and the snowmads are both unlikely to be seen again in the franchise and have only been in one game so you can't consider them the main, iconic DK villain, saying that just because he wasn't in the latest game means he shouldn't be in is like saying that ghirahim should replace ganon in sm4sh.

K. Rool isn't really the main antagonist of the DK series either. He was just a main antagonist for that period of time. There are far more DK games that do not feature K. Rool than those that do.

That is nowhere near the same as Ganon in relation to Ghirahim, and is a total twisting of what I said. It's not about him being in the most recent game (singular), it's that he is literally not a part of the modern franchise at all, and hasn't been for years.

I think he's a great classic Nintendo character and I would love him in the game, but that doesn't make him iconic in any sense of the word. He's niche, third-tier, and not high on anyone's priority list.

I do still think you're being kind of selective. You've argued pretty heavily for what you want, while dismissing characters other people want when they fall under the same catagory your logic dismisses them for. Do I think you're being a butt? No, not at all. This whole thing has been quite civil, but I do think you're being selective and I've been partaking in your conversation this whole time.

 

[Kyzon]

That was Meta Ridley (Aka Ridley back from the dead a cyborg). Meta Ridley's a lot smaller than the flier, but he seems overall bigger than Ridley (longer tail and much bigger wings, similarly-sized head).

Speaking of Meta Ridley, Meta Ridley's Brawl form has some significant differences from Prime's Meta Ridley in the head region. I think Sakurai made them so that Meta Ridley was more identifiable as "cyborg Ridley" instead of "robot Ridley", since there wasn't a scan visor to tell you about it.

I'll take 60% of this Ridley

Anyways I'm off to EVO. See everyone later

You'll see me wearing a Link Hat :3

 

[Beelzebufo]

How was Meta Ridley constructed in SSE without Space Pirates, or a Mother Brain to tell the space pirates what to do? Did ROBs do it, and that's why he looks cheaper than normal
Meta Ridley?

 

[Toxi]

Mewtwo =(

Holy shit, this video just kept getting better and better.

But this one is still my favorite.

How was Meta Ridley constructed in SSE without Space Pirates, or a Mother Brain to tell the space pirates what to do? Did ROBs do it, and that's why he looks cheaper than normal
Meta Ridley?

Dat subspace outsourcing

 

[Loco4Coco]

I'll take 60% of this Ridley

Anyways I'm off to EVO. See everyone later

You'll see me wearing a Link Hat :3

The pic above is a foreshadow of what Ridley is gonna be in SSB4.

Spoiler

Look at Samus' hand.

 

[Kouichi]

But you know what sounds more awesome? Being able to play against another player who's playing as K. Rool and not just against some dumb AI, that's the kind of cool scenario you can only get from smash bros and it's much more interesting that just fighting against an AI.

But that doesn't make the AI boss fight any less fun or appealing to fans. As I said before, a playable appearance is obviously preferred, but boss or assist trophy is the next best thing if they don't end up playable.

I don't understand what's so bad about having them appear as bosses or assist trophies if they're not playable. It's a better scenario than leaving them as trophies. Appearing as a boss or AT allows a bunch of characters to appear and interact with all the other fighters. How is that not great?

 

[Toxi]

I love how in Prime, burning Ridley's wings off just pisses him off.

I'll take 60% of this Ridley

Anyways I'm off to EVO. See everyone later

You'll see me wearing a Link Hat :3

Oooh, didn't realize you were at Evo.

Have fun and get hype!

 

[DaBoss]

But that doesn't make the AI boss fight any less fun or appealing to fans. As I said before, a playable appearance is obviously preferred, but boss or assist trophy is the next best thing if they don't end up playable.

I don't understand what's so bad about having them appear as bosses or assist trophies if they're not playable. It's a better scenario than leaving them as trophies. Appearing as a boss or AT allows a bunch of characters to appear and interact with all the other fighters. How is that not great?

Shhhhh, no logic.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Yeah, that's why I hated Pokefloats so much. It was just a giant "Fuck you, look at how all of your favorite Pokemon aren't playable" from Sakurai. At least he had the decency to remove it from Brawl.

 

[zlatko]

So as someone who has never played Smash competitively, but watched it on several streams before, I have to ask if Nintendo has at all reached out to the competitive scene players and what they will do for them?

Have they talked about what kind of net code we can see that won't suck?

Will there be a ranked online competitive mode ala say Street Fighter 4 ?

Will the online ranked have the "set rules" of what you see in a competitive tournament for Smash? (No items, only certain stages, etc?)

I could see myself buying a Wii U to play this if they cater to this kind of stuff to garner my attention, but without it I just don't see myself caring even if Greninja, Megaman, and Little look fun as hell to play.

 

[JoeInky]

K. Rool isn't really the main antagonist of the DK series either. He was just a main antagonist for that period of time. There are far more DK games that do not feature K. Rool than those that do.

That is nowhere near the same as Ganon in relation to Ghirahim, and is a total twisting of what I said. It's not about him being in the most recent game (singular), it's that he is literally not a part of the modern franchise at all, and hasn't been for years.

I think he's a great classic Nintendo character and I would love him in the game, but that doesn't make him iconic in any sense of the word. He's niche, third-tier, and not high on anyone's priority list.

I do still think you're being kind of selective. You've argued pretty heavily for what you want, while dismissing characters other people want when they fall under the same catagory your logic dismisses them for. Do I think you're being a butt? No, not at all. This whole thing has been quite civil, but I do think you're being selective and I've been partaking in your conversation this whole time.

I don't think waluigi and lyn being worse choices than K. Rool or Dark Samus/Ridley goes against my logic.

My current logic for character representation (per franchise) would go like this:

If characters from the franchise are feasible from a design perspective: Main character > Villain > Playable Characters > Side characters

With franchises with no playable representation taking priority over those that already have it, followed by franchises with playable characters but no villains followed by playable characters with villains.

And I would definitely say K. Rool is considered the main iconic antagonist of the DK franchise, considering that of all the DK antagonists he has been in the most games as well as the fact that he's been in the most side games/spin offs.


Anything I've said about K. Rool, Dark Samus/Ridley, Isaac, Saki or Ray can't be said for Waluigi or Lyn using my line of thinking so I definitely don't think I'm just saying that characters that I like more are better than characters others might like more despite them being at the same level, because I don't think they are at the same level.

 

[Troubled Bat]

Yeah, that's why I hated Pokefloats so much. It was just a giant "Fuck you, look at how all of your favorite Pokemon aren't playable" from Sakurai. At least he had the decency to remove it from Brawl.

Awww hell no!

 

[Beelzebufo]

So as someone who has never played Smash competitively, but watched it on several streams before, I have to ask if Nintendo has at all reached out to the competitive scene players and what they will do for them?

Have they talked about what kind of net code we can see that won't suck?

Will there be a ranked online competitive mode ala say Street Fighter 4 ?

Will the online ranked have the "set rules" of what you see in a competitive tournament for Smash? (No items, only certain stages, etc?)

I could see myself buying a Wii U to play this if they cater to this kind of stuff to garner my attention, but without it I just don't see myself caring even if Greninja, Megaman, and Little look fun as hell to play.

There won't be "Ranked" matches, and there's no leaderboards. Just "For Fun" which is any stage with items, and "For Glory" which is no items and Final destination only. As far as we know they're both time battle only.

They have reached out for comments on balancing though, and they're even sponsoring EVO. I don't think the super competitive smash players really care about online.

Awww hell no!

Yeah, I know! It wasn't bad enough that Wobbuffet is a Pokeball Pokemon, but they had to rub salt in the wound with that damned stage.

 

[R0ckman]

If you compare his size when he's right next to Samus, he's actually much larger than Brawl Bowser. He's closer to Brawl Ridley.

You can determine the size of Ridley by the metroid container, if you do that, he's not as big as you claim. Because Brawl Ridley was able to fit Samus into his hands with ease in the cutscene. Which means that the container with the metroid should be WAY larger than that. This shouldn't even need to be argued.

 

[ffdgh]

Yeah, that's why I hated Pokefloats so much. It was just a giant "Fuck you, look at how all of your favorite Pokemon aren't playable" from Sakurai. At least he had the decency to remove it from Brawl.

Forgive me but my sarcasm detector is not working for this post lol.