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[georly]

Sakurai said that if you worry about balance or fairness then you can't have unique characters, I said that you don't have to sacrifice unique characters like WFT and Villager (apparently) are to have a balanced game.

What you just said doesn't mean anything in any context.

Sakurai is KINDA right about that, though.

If you constantly worry about balance, keeping the game fair, etc, you can't really come up with any idea you want for a special move or for a character because first you have to say to yourself 'wait... that'll break the game' or 'no that's way too unfair,' so it technically limits what abilities you can give a character. It prevents a form of variety. I think if balance was his primary goal, we wouldn't have palutena's up smash.

I think his philosophy of 'create first, balance later' lets him make ridiculous abilities and then worry about toning them down later. I think that's really all he's saying.

If he don't really care about balance, then why did they buff some characters by making their moves better or revamped their move sets? Those happened, along with unique newcomers that we have been getting.

Yoshi, Pit, Charizard, Sheik, Zelda, Bowser, etc

He totally cares about balance, but he believes balance comes later. Make what you want first, balance it later!

 

[diaspora]

...that's the point

on FD, you don't need to jump

hence why everyone bans FD vs Marth because he can do the tech chase grabs all day long

IIRC Smash 4 has fixed Marth's stupid, stupid grab.

I don't know how anything Sakurai said in that article could be interpreted as objectionable unless you were going in with the mindset of "Sakurai is actively trying to shit in my cereal" and thus will take almost anything he says as proof of that

Well...

 

[The12thGripper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r-M0isViaQ

This needs to be music in the game.

If they actually made it a good song, then I'd be ok with it taking up a slot.

Battle! Xerneas/Yveltal/Zygarde needs to be a song 100%.

 

[Hot Coldman]

IIRC Smash 4 has fixed Marth's stupid, stupid grab.

Oh I know, just giving an example of what a lone flat platform can do for characters with OP ground technique.

 

[JoeInky]

I mean what do you define balance as exactly?

I define balance as each character having, at a mechanical level, an equal chance of winning.

I know that this is impossible in fighting games without there being only one character, but I think in a cast of fighters you should make it one of your goals to have the difference between the top tiers and bottom tiers as small as possible by accentuating the unique abilites of each character and punctuating those with weaknesses.

I'm pretty sure sakurai does this at least in some way, but his comments imply that you can't have balance or fairness without having every character be the same, and I did not agree with the sentiment.

I also don't like the fact that he once again implies these aspects aren't fun, apparently I've never had fun with the smash series other than those few months I played Brawl.




Making what you want first and then balancing it later is what you should do and if that's what he meant then yeah I'm wrong on that part.

But to me it sounded more like a general "balance doesn't really matter, that's not fun" comment.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I think his philosophy of 'create first, balance later' lets him make ridiculous abilities and then worry about toning them down later. I think that's really all he's saying.

He totally cares about balance, but he believes balance comes later. Make what you want first, balance it later!

I agreed with your first statement. That's exactly what I understand from Sakurai's comments. Yeah, I'm trying to make a point that Sakurai are trying to make some characters better, and still working on unique characters. When they are done with the characters, then they would balance it out. Sakurai kept mentioning that people are still testing the games over the time.

 

[Red Arremer]

Melee was a completely broken, unbalanced mess, and still is a fully competitively viable game. I don't see how Sakurai's statements make Smash 4's potential to become a competitive game any smaller.

He didn't say that he doesn't give a shit about balance, like you guys are making it out to be, he said that he first thinks of interesting new mechanics and gameplay when creating a character. Balancing said mechanics happens afterwards.

But obviously, nigh perfect balance is the only thing that makes a game competitively viable. That's why Virtua Fighter is such an enormous hit with the FGC.

 

[BGBW]

For Smash Get Mash

 

[Village]

Sakurai is KINDA right about that, though.

If you constantly worry about balance, keeping the game fair, etc, you can't really come up with any idea you want for a special move or for a character because first you have to say to yourself 'wait... that'll break the game' or 'no that's way too unfair,' so it technically limits what abilities you can give a character. It prevents a form of variety. I think if balance was his primary goal, we wouldn't have palutena's up smash.

Not going to say this is objective truth, but there are problably plenty of other fighting games that concider ballance while creating character moves and have just as unique characters.

 

[georly]

Not going to say this is objective truth, but there are problably plenty of other fighting games that concider ballance while creating character moves and have just as unique characters.

Probably, but there are probably tons of fighting games who throw unique moves/characters/etc out the window because they know that the move will likely break the balance of the game entirely.

I bet a ton of fighters have sakurai's philosophy, though, not saying they don't. Make what you want because it's neat and unique, balance it later. That's really all I took from his interview. It's probably very common when making a fighting game. Heck, SF2 has almost exclusively unique fighters (looking at you ryu and ken!) This is definitely a very common thought process in the world of making fighters, all sakurai is doing is pointing it out.

If you ignore balance altogether, the sky is the limit with the abilities and fighters you can put into a game.

 

[Hot Coldman]

The whole "design your game with balance in mind" is a moot point in the age of post-release support anyway. Save your annoyance for when Sakurai/Namco refuse to patch the game for no good reason.

 

[Gilbals]

Melee was a completely broken, unbalanced mess, and still is a fully competitively viable game. I don't see how Sakurai's statements make Smash 4's potential to become a competitive game any smaller.

He didn't say that he doesn't give a shit about balance, like you guys are making it out to be, he said that he first thinks of interesting new mechanics and gameplay when creating a character. Balancing said mechanics happens afterwards.

But obviously, nigh perfect balance is the only thing that makes a game competitively viable. That's why Virtua Fighter is such an enormous hit with the FGC.

^This. If Melee was a perfect balance, we wouldn't see the same 5ish characters played at every tournament, it's because those characters have the tools and are broken just enough to be tiered higher. Street Fighter is never balanced perfectly, but it gets better each time, which to think...This is the first patchable Smash. If crap's broke, it can be fixed, and we can get tasty tasty editions...

 

[curlyfriski]

The original two games were great because you could have wacky fights with Nintendo's All Star characters. Nothing has changed.

If that's all there was to them I wouldn't still be playing them. The fan service is nice but there's a pretty short limit to how long it can maintain my interest.

 

[Village]

Thats what smash gaf and mahvel gaf merge

 

[georly]

If that's all there was to them I wouldn't still be playing them. The fan service is nice but there's a pretty short limit to how long it can maintain my interest.

I don't know that sakurai could have ever imagined that people would still be playing 64 and melee 10+ years later other than for nostalgia.

 

[JoeInky]

The whole "design your game with balance in mind" is a moot point in the age of post-release support anyway. Save your annoyance for when Sakurai/Namco refuse to patch the game for no good reason.

If they actually do this then I probably won't be too bothered about anything wrong with the core game.

I can't see either Sakurai or Namco sticking on with the game though, it seems like Sakurai would just want to move onto his next project/take a deserved break and that the Namco employess would just go back to their respective studios.

If that's all there was to them I wouldn't still be playing them. The fan service is nice but there's a pretty short limit to how long it can maintain my interest.

Also this, fanservice is entertaining for all of 1 month, after that I want a game that I can actually sink my teeth into, I got that with 64 and Melee, but not with Brawl.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Thats what smash gaf and mahvel gaf merge

For that, we need Enzo and Dahbomb here.

 

[Red Arremer]

Not going to say this is objective truth, but there are problably plenty of other fighting games that concider ballance while creating character moves and have just as unique characters.

I can't speak for all fighting game designers that exist out there, but when I was designing characters for a (now abandonware) fighting game project, my approach was "what would be a cool moveset concept or mechanic, and how do I implement that into a character? What moves should that character have to make him interesting and unique?".
I was thinking in terms of mechanics and moveset before even giving a second thought to balance.

 

[OmegaSmash]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

 

[diaspora]

Thats what smash gaf and mahvel gaf merge

Marvel > Melee =P

 

[georly]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

Is that project M turbo mode or some other mod?

 

[emb]

^This. If Melee was a perfect balance, we wouldn't see the same 5ish characters played at every tournament, it's because those characters have the tools and are broken just enough to be tiered higher. Street Fighter is never balanced perfectly, but it gets better each time, which to think...This is the first patchable Smash. If crap's broke, it can be fixed, and we can get tasty tasty editions...

What's so bad about 5 characters though? Those are all basically tied at the top (one's slightly ahead), and then you have another 3-4 slightly worse characters just below that who are still seen often. It has enough to keep it fairly varied. The rest of the cast still shows up from time to time with skilled players.

I dunno, it just never bothered me. Unless a game devolves to almost only Fox or Metaknight dittos, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

 

[JoeInky]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

Not Necessarily what I would want out of smash because it would put off too many people online....



But that is fucking beautiful.

Is it an entry for the PM turbo mode contest?

 

[Village]

I can't speak for all fighting game designers that exist out there, but when I was designing characters for a (now abandonware) fighting game project, my approach was "what would be a cool moveset concept or mechanic, and how do I implement that into a character? What moves should that character have to make him interesting and unique?".
I was thinking in terms of mechanics and moveset before even giving a second thought to balance.

That's how I would think too, however all I am saying there are problably fighting games when creating new guys working balance into their moveset and adjusting when need be.

 

[IntelliHeath]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

DAMN!

Is that project M turbo mode or some other mod?

Look like Project M Turbo with TAS.

 

[Jintor]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

omfg

 

[JoeInky]

Actually, that isn't turbo mode.

You can only cancel on hit in turbo mode, that just looks like you can cancel any move, any time.


(Also no aura is a bit of a hint now that I notice that)

 

[georly]

What's so bad about 5 characters though? Those are all basically tied at the top (one's slightly ahead), and then you have another 3-4 slightly worse characters just below that who are still seen often. It has enough to keep it fairly varied. The rest of the cast still shows up from time to time with skilled players.

I dunno, it just never bothered me. Unless a game devolves to almost only Fox or Metaknight dittos, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

The definition of a balanced fighting game is that all characters are perfectly viable and can be a viable match against any other fighter, no? I could be wrong. By that definition, melee isn't balanced.

As long as there isn't ONE character that is ALWAYS better than others, it's ok for a lot of games, I think. It's just more fun when you can learn and master any character you want because you'll still have a chance.

Actually, that isn't turbo mode.
You can only cancel on hit in turbo mode, that just looks like you can cancel any move, any time.
(Also no aura is a bit of a hint now that I notice that)

Yeah, just rewatched it, no way that's turbo mode. Looks like a ridiculous mod.

 

[tonyh24613]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

TAS?

 

[J@hranimo]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

O________________O

Sorry for the long face, but that is the greatest Smash thing ever lol.

 

[Red Arremer]

That's how I would think too, however all I am saying there are problably fighting games when creating new guys working balance into their moveset and adjusting when need be.

Oh yeah, I would always consider balance later on, and adjust if necessary. But I wouldn't want to abandon cool character mechanics or concepts for the sake of balance. I would accept the roster being a bit more unbalanced (since I would never achieve perfect balance anyway) in favor of more diverse characters with unique mechanics.

And I believe that is exactly what Sakurai means. He first comes up with a cool character concept or mechanic and tries to make them work. He didn't say that balance means every character has to be the same, either. What he meant was that he'd rather keep the unique mechanics than throwing them out just to have balance.

 

[OmegaSmash]

http://a.pomf.se/tzcoca.webm
Yeah, it's from a Brawl TAS video (don't know the source though)

 

[emb]

The definition of a balanced fighting game is that all characters are perfectly viable and can be a viable match against any other fighter, no? I could be wrong. By that definition, melee isn't balanced.

As long as there isn't ONE character that is ALWAYS better than others, it's ok for a lot of games, I think. It's just more fun when you can learn and master any character you want because you'll still have a chance.

Oh yeah, you're right. I guess I kinda lost the point of the discussion I was jumping into. Balanced or not though, I'll just say I'm happy with the way the metagame for it turned out. If Smash 4 can end up like that (or like Brawl without the 1 or two outliers at the top) I'd be happy.

 

[georly]

http://a.pomf.se/tzcoca.webm
Yeah, it's from a Brawl TAS video (don't know the source though)

They just laugh in the face of sudden death

 

[Guesong]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

That is so sick.


A game doesn't need to be balanced to thrive in the FGC, though. Vanilla SF4 had Sagat as a broken mess, but it still lived. Marvel have their own samurai god (or evil megalomaniac, depending on version), still lives.

Of course, having no platform on FD is kind of...silly for Little Mac. We all know this. We all know having Battlefield as the default would have been much better if we have to be limited to one stage. But, I'll wait to see and play the final version for myself before passing judgment.

And the tourney scene will not be affected by such restrictions, as well.

 

[-Horizon-]

Pic of the day. Here's a Screen K.O. shot. There are also patterns where players will disappear into the sky for Star K.O.s, but as a match's time limit approaches, those K.O.s will not occur anymore.

I want to see Robin's and Lucina's screen KO at the same time now. Still a hilarious addition to the game.

 

[OmegaSmash]

Personally, I don't mind unbalance as long as all characters have a fighting chance and just feel good to play.

 

[Crocodile]

A "balanced" fighting game just means the tiers are relatively narrow and close together. As long as there are differences between characters (which cross-over fighters tend to exasperate) there will never be a game with 100% perfect balance. NEVER.

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time. Yuck :/

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Yeah, okay, I'll concede to you that OoT certainly was important for the Zelda franchise, but the most important? C'mon.

Um, yes. It's the game that split the timeline, introduced Ganondorf, introduced time-travel, is considered by many to be the best, or at least one of the best, and brought the series into 3-D.

 

[Gilbals]

What's so bad about 5 characters though? Those are all basically tied at the top (one's slightly ahead), and then you have another 3-4 slightly worse characters just below that who are still seen often. It has enough to keep it fairly varied. The rest of the cast still shows up from time to time with skilled players.

I dunno, it just never bothered me. Unless a game devolves to almost only Fox or Metaknight dittos, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

I was more quoting the broken nature of Melee in reference to it being a perfectly balanced game. While I would love to see more diversity in the tourney scene, I'm fine that it was at least balanced that far. Also, with this one being patchable, uniqueness can still exist in characters while the field can still be evened out.

People are basically just blowing this whole balance issue out of the water. It'll come in time, if it doesn't, oh well still fun.

 

[User 73706]

It's weird to me that the Yellow Devil is a stage boss and not an Assist Trophy. It seems like his gimmicks would work well within the confines of a lot of stages. I'm pretty sure Mother Brain is just as large if not larger, too.

 

[Village]

Oh yeah, I would always consider balance later on, and adjust if necessary. But I wouldn't want to abandon cool character mechanics or concepts for the sake of balance. I would accept the roster being a bit more unbalanced (since I would never achieve perfect balance anyway) in favor of more diverse characters with unique mechanics.

It would depend on what type of game you ar working on. I think a bit more things have to be concidered and more things taken away in a gave like sfiv, unlike marvel where characters have moves that can keeep characters away from them and run out time. And it bing unbalanced in a way makes it balanced some weeird zen full circle kind of things
So you know get in where the balance fits in.

Btw if I may ask what type of fighting game were you making?

I have been working on gam stuff as of late but nothing on the level of a fighting game. I'm just one dude.

 

[georly]

This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time. Yuck :/

I don't think anyone (ok most anyone) would ever want a game that actually plays like that. It's more like fireworks or a summer blockbuster. Something fun to watch but no one will ever consider it serious.

Um, yes. It's the game that split the timeline, introduced Ganondorf, introduced time-travel, is considered by many to be the best, or at least one of the best, and brought the series into 3-D.

Holy crap, way to pull a post from 30 pages ago.

I'll restate my sentiment. OoT is my favorite zelda. It's still not the most important. It's the second most important. The first Zelda is THE most important.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Turbo Mode is so dumb :lol :lol :lol

Project M is still probably the best Smash game though. Just need to remove the dumb Castlevania level.

 

[sorakirosaki]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

is smash going mahvel now?

 

[Jintor]

Pls reskin battlefield samurai

 

[Lunar15]

Oh sakurai, now how will smash ever be placed among incredibly balanced giants like Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3??

 

[darkmagus]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

lol its like watching DBZ, that was so intense.

 

[Caladrius]

Pls reskin battlefield samurai

Sure thing.

Spoiler

*Mods 75m*

 

[Hot Coldman]

Pls reskin battlefield samurai

I wish there were more levels with a mess of stationary platforms like Battlefield. It's part of why 64's levels are mostly all great, with shit like Hyrule Castle and Metal Cavern.

So far in Smash 4, the only level like that I see (that doesn't transform or anything) is Windy Hill, maybe? Mushroom Kingdom U looks great but it seems to transform so frequently, and all the platforms move off on Wii Fit Studio (plus it's got walk-offs).

3DS one has Pac-Maze at least.