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[soul]

While I think what he is saying is really stupid, turkey is neither in the Middle East, nor an Arabic country

- Iraq (civil war)
- Syria (civil war)
- Egypt (poverty)
- Lebanon (rockets and suicide bombers from Syria)
- I'd say Jordan is just fine.

Overall, I'd say Israeli-Arabs are safer in Israel. Not only that, but they receive benefits (affirmative action) just for being an Arab in Israel, as stated in the previous post.

 

[nib95]

I think Bill Maher puts a lot of this in context -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1zzlXleHU4


Not that it justifies killing hundreds of innocents but It's not black and white as both sides would have us think.

So much wrong with this video.

- Firstly, why the sole focus on Gaza (which is exactly what Israel wants), what about the continued illegal land grab and expansion of settlements in the West Bank? Illegal under international law and something that has been on-going for decades?

- Gaza may not be occupied with settlements, but it is militaristically and strategically controlled, by way of blockades, control of electricity, food, general supplies, aid, trade and all. Not that far removed.

- The guest speaker states that Hamas wants Israel to cease to exist and quotes their old charter, Hamas has already said they no longer abide by that charter, and have also agreed to treaties over and over again based on the 1967 borders (which accept Israel's right to exist) as well as a sovereign Palestine, which Israel continuously rejects, why no mention of this?

- Also, was Maher justifying on-going modern day colonialism in this video? It has happened in the past, so get over it?

Maher's argument was essentially the same simple minded, if you fire rockets you get fired back on argument. Or, "Israel has the right to defend itself" one. Which is contextually ignorant. It's not Hamas fires, Israel retaliates. It never has been. It's Israel steals more and more land, destroys more Palestinian homes and displaces hundreds more Palestinian's, and continues it's brutal occupation, and Hamas responds, and then Israel continues, rinse repeat. People always leave out this crucial context, the fact that there has been an over half a century long brutal occupation of Palestine, and continued land steal along with it. That is the main catalyst to the tensions and what gives rise to Hamas as a resistance in Palestine in the first place!

 

[Buba Big Guns]

Here is the video....

be warn there is some dead ppl in the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoMFk82UY30

Fuck man....fuck...

I think Bill Maher puts a lot of this in context -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1zzlXleHU4


Not that it justifies killing hundreds of innocents but It's not black and white as both sides would have us think.

Bill Maher really knows jack shit about this conflict.

 

[TheContact]

This is fucking terrible. Gaza needs to stop launching rockets into Israel and Israel needs to fuck off with killing innocent civilians and they all just learn to live in peace

 

[soul]

Arab nations have already agreed to recognize and normalize diplomatic relations with Israel, if they withdrew from the occupied territories, and accepted an independent Palestine in West Bank and Gaza.

Israel has signed the peace treaty with Egypt while expanding settlements.
Israel has signed the peace treaty with Jordan while expanding settlements.
Israel has signed 4 agreements with the PLO while expanding settlements.

The 'settlement' problem was not an issue until a few years ago someone decided to make it one. It is a simple way to delegitimize Israel, and obviously seeing the posts in this forum, it's working just fine.

 

[GuessWho]

While I think what he is saying is really stupid, turkey is neither in the Middle East, nor an Arabic country

Why do you think it's stupid? Because there is some truth it? Israel Arabs have way better then most in other countries.

 

[Orenhy]

Saying that they're using innocent civilians as shields doesn't give you a free pass to kill them anyway. And are we really to believe that ALL the kids and women that were murdered were all guilty of something?

In a larger prospect, when you consider the Palestinians voted for hamas, is obviously also part of it, and lives unresistant while they shoot rockets at israel. Then when the enemy army invades their homes to stop the missiles while warning the Palestinians of their coming long ahead, i would not go ahead and say they DESERVE it by any means. But things happen for a reason, and the reasoning is not that one sided for either of the sides in this conflict.

 

[Vastag]

To be fair, they're only using them because they are going for legitimate military targets and are trying not to kill any civilians.

Oh wait, no, flechettes are for inflicting as high a death count as possible, aren't they? God, you'd have to be a real piece of shit to defend Israel here.

Fuck. Are they going to use white phosporus again this time? "Surgical strikes".

 

[Bodacious]

The convenient human shield excuse.

Well, that is what Bill Clinton said about it, just a few days ago ...

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/i...ill-clinton-tells-ndtv-full-transcript-560395

Well, first of all Hamas was perfectly well aware of what would happen if they started raining rockets in Israel. They fired a thousand of them. And they have a strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own civilians so that the rest of the world will condemn them.

There's more. He points the finger at both sides, but there's no ambiguity in his assessment that Hamas puts its own civilians in front of the bullets for strategic/propaganda purposes. I consider his opinion more informed and experienced than my own, a thousandfold, so I believe him.

 

[genjiZERO]

Hold up.

Did you just defend apartheid? Because it's a self defined Jewish state it's okay for non-Jews to be treated as second class citizens?

England is a Christian country, should we treat all the non-believers as second class citizens too?

Calm down. I'm doing precisely the opposite. I'm pointing out how Arab-Israelis *don't* have it as good as claimed.

 

[yarden24]

Are more than half of Arabs living in Israel still living in poverty? If not, I'm glad things have changed.

While Arabs in Israel are obviously discriminated against regularly , it is not something the country does as a policy generally with some exceptions,

To give you an example of the situation, the average Muslim in Israel earns 29% less the the average jew(which is terrible) ,yet in the United States, the average black person earns 31% less then white people! Arabs in Israel can actually make a better living in Israel then African Americans can In the US

 

[Dash27]

Oh wow, get educated about what it's really like for Arabs living in Israel. Here's just one recent story http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/sayed-kashua-why-i-have-to-leave-israel

And Hamas is a product of desperate, oppressed and imprisoned people with no international support. You can't possibly compare it to the duty of a supposedly democratic government.

No of course not, why should we have any expectations for HAMAS? What other choice to they have? I mean it's not like the US has been trying to broker peace for decades and Palestinian leaders haven't shown up or HAMAS directly ruined the ones that did:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11103745

OSLO:

There was an exchange of letters in which Yasser Arafat stated: "The PLO recognises the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security." Yitzhak Rabin said: "The Government of Israel has decided to recognise the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people."

Hamas and other Palestinian rejectionist groups did not accept Oslo and launched suicide bomb attacks on Israelis. There was opposition within Israel from settler-led groups. Oslo was only partially implemented.

But yeah sucks for that guy that some people were shitty to him and he feels he has to move.

 

[Spacecowboy77]

- The guest speaker states that Hamas wants Israel to cease to exist and quotes their old charter, Hamas has already said they no longer abide by that charter, and have also agreed to treaties over and over again based on the 1967 borders (which accept Israel's right to exist) as well as a sovereign Palestine, which Israel continuously rejects, why no mention of this?

Source for this?

All evidence I ever seen is that HAMAS rejects the very existence of the state of Israel, on any lines and even goes beyond that to say that all jews should die, regardless of location. They are a fanatical jihadist organisation.

The only sane voice of the Palestinians is Pres. Abbas, which is Patah, not HAMAS.

 

[Chittagong]

Remind me again, why are we (EU&US) tolerating Israel? Because we dislike their neighbours even more?

 

[Ashes]

Well, that is what Bill Clinton said about it, just a few days ago ...


There's more. He points the finger at both sides, but there's no ambiguity in his assessment that Hamas puts its own civilians in front of the bullets for strategic/propaganda purposes. I consider his opinion more informed and experienced than my own, a thousandfold, so I believe him.

Maybe he should take responsibility for some of the decisions he took in regards to the instability between the two states.

 

[yarden24]

Why do you think it's stupid? Because there is some truth it? Israel Arabs have way better then most in other countries.

Why the hell does it matter if they have it better in Israel then in neighboring countries
?Is it ok to discriminate against African Americans because they have it better In the states then in Africa

 

[Quotient]

- The guest speaker states that Hamas wants Israel to cease to exist and quotes their old charter, Hamas has already said they no longer abide by that charter, and have also agreed to treaties over and over again based on the 1967 borders (which accept Israel's right to exist) as well as a sovereign Palestine, which Israel continuously rejects, why no mention of this?

I don't know if anyone actually believes this. We still have videos of Hamas leaders repeating their "wipe out Israel" mantra, and they haven't updated their charter to reflect their change of heart due to "internal reasons".

They may have had a 'change in heart', but i'm not sure anyone (governments) is convinced and this conflict hasn't done anything to cement that 'change of heart'.

 

[Dopus]

In a larger prospect, when you consider the Palestinians voted for hamas, is ofc part of it, and lives unresistant while they shoot rockets at israel. Then when the enemy army invades their homes to stop the missiles while warning the Palestinians of their coming long ahead, i would not go ahead and say they DESERVE it by any means. But things happen for a reason, and the reasoning is not that one sided for either of the sides in this conflict.

Hamas getting into power is a direct result of decades of Israel brutalization of the Palestinian people. Israel have done as little as possible to make any progress on a solution. So what do you expect the Palestinians to do? They don't even have the basic human right of self determination and here you say that they're responsible for what they get. Ridiculous. The people are beaten and frustrated. Anyone who is supporting the Israeli incursion into Gaza is either delusion, misinformed or just a rather despicable human being.

And that Bill Maher video floating about is just absurd.

 

[speculawyer]

Your tax dollars at work

 

[Spacecowboy77]

Well, that is what Bill Clinton said about it, just a few days ago ...

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/i...ill-clinton-tells-ndtv-full-transcript-560395

There's more. He points the finger at both sides, but there's no ambiguity in his assessment that Hamas puts its own civilians in front of the bullets for strategic/propaganda purposes. I consider his opinion more informed and experienced than my own, a thousandfold, so I believe him.

Lol, funny that his wife says exactly the opposite -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnNzkkp36-c

 

[Baki]

Israel is a terrorist state. Can't believe US tax payer money is used to arm these assholes.

 

[dripdripsplash]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/israeli-soldier-posts-instagram-palestinian

Case from last year.

Israeli soldier posts Instagram image of Palestinian child in crosshairs of rifle
Military investigates Mor Ostrovski, 20, as row grows over spate of offensive images posted online by Israeli soldiers

 

[Mighty Chin]

Israel is a terrorist state. Can't believe US tax payer money is used to arm these assholes.

Hamas isn't?

 

[imtehman]

while the leaders in turkey, Pakistan, Egypt and Saudi sit back and do nothing.

the military power is clearly there the but leadership are a bunch of cowards.

Israel commit these massacres as they know there will be no come back. Instead the Arab countries are Israel's first line of defense.

hard to do anything when israel's number one partner in crime is America, u know, the country that has the #1 military in the world with a spying program that reaches even the remote regions of africa

 

[kmag]

Remind me again, why are we (EU&US) tolerating Israel? Because we dislike their neighbours even more?

The EU tend to be wee bit more strident in their criticism of Israel, but obviously some European countries are rather sensitive to the cries of anti-Semitism.

The US is far more interesting. A combination of previous tactical considerations (only democracy in the middle east and a bulwark against the soviet backed dictatorships), a strong pro-Israel domestic lobby and latterly bat shit crazy evangelical Christians who need Israel to fulfil some end of days prophecy.

 

[nib95]

Israel has signed the peace treaty with Egypt while expanding settlements.
Israel has signed the peace treaty with Jordan while expanding settlements.
Israel has signed 4 agreements with the PLO while expanding settlements.

The 'settlement' problem was not an issue until a few years ago someone decided to make it one. It is a simple way to delegitimize Israel, and obviously seeing the posts in this forum, it's working just fine.

The settlements, constant destruction or Palestinian homes, and the continued displacement of it's people, along with the on-going brutal occupation itself, have always been the main issues. It's simply dishonest to say otherwise.

No person of right mind, is going to be welcoming of a brutal military coming along and destroying their home, leaving them and their entire family homeless and without anything to their name, and then to make matters worse, brutalising, killing or imprisoning them if they dare to retaliate. That's essentially the situation countless Palestinian's face today, only worse.


From recollection, you yourself live on one of these settlements, so your defence of Israel's actions here and the continued illegal expansion of territory and illegal settlements (both under international law) does not surprise me in the slightest.

 

[Vastag]

Hamas isn't?

Is the US tax payer money being used to arm them?

 

[Baki]

Hamas isn't?

Hamas is a product of Israeli terrorism.

 

[entremet]

More like 90 dead.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Is the US tax payer money being used to arm them?

US money is funding the UNRWA that provides the basic necessities in Gaza so Hamas can focus on waging war.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

IDF solidiers need a lunch break. Indiscriminately killing civilians is probably a tiring affair.

Holy shit.

 

[linsivvi]

Illegal settlements is not an issue and is simply a way to delegitimize Israel.

Wow. Now I have heard it all.

 

[Quotient]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/israeli-soldier-posts-instagram-palestinian

This article and incident is from a year ago. Perhaps I am missing your comment on this?

 

[Vastag]

US money is funding the UNRWA that provides the basic necessities in Gaza so Hamas can focus on waging war.

Mental gymnastics much? Are you equating preventing people from dying of hunger with giving billions in arms to Israel?

 

[Baki]

US money is funding the UNRWA that provides the basic necessities in Gaza so Hamas can focus on waging war.

Very different to direct military aid.

And again, Hamas is a product of Israeli terrorism.

 

[dakun]

Remind me again, why are we (EU&US) tolerating Israel? Because we dislike their neighbours even more?

because Israel is still a comparatively sane nation compared to its neighbors.. i'm not at all pro Israel.. but the mindset of the people that live around them. well lets just say there wouldn't be a Jew left in the area if you pull support from under Israels feet.
I have family in Turkey which is considered pretty moderate compared to the rest of the Muslim countries there..
The hate for Jews (not Israel as a country) has reached Nazi-like levels in many peoples mind. The dead civilians are just another reason for them to justify their hate, but it's ingrained in many peoples heads because of their religion.

So while it's horrible what happens there right now.. i wouldn't want to imagine a scenario where the west supports the Arab world thinking all this protesting from other muslim people is just because of the dead civilians and the bad actions of Israel as a state.

ok enough said.. i can feel the insults and hate coming

 

[Baki]

Holy shit.

Oh, was I too frank.

 

[Mighty Chin]

Hamas is a product of Israeli terrorism.

And the Tea Party is a product of a Black Man being President. Hand your country over to nut jobs and the result is obvious.

If they didn't do the thing I told them not to do I wouldn't have had to do what I did.

 

[Dash27]

Hamas is a product of Israeli terrorism.

lol

And to add on to Oslo from my above quote, we come to a 2007 attempt

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11103745

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas took part in talks along with officials from the peace-making Quartet and more than a dozen Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia and Syria. This was seen as significant as they do not officially recognise Israel.

PROGRESS!!! But....

However the Palestinian group Hamas, which had won parliamentary elections and taken control of the Gaza Strip, was not represented. It declared it would not be bound by anything decided.

Aww. So close. Well I'm sure they just want an end to the suffering of their people that they use as human shields.

 

[nib95]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/israeli-soldier-posts-instagram-palestinian

Remember those two Palestinian children who were shot dead in cold blood, as caught by the CCTV camera? Yea. When you see Instragram messages like this, by IDF sniper unit members, and posts such as "Arab blood tastes good", it adds a whole new context.

Here's the video btw. NSFW warning. Graphic video showing two Palestinian teens being shot dead in cold blood, unaware and at random.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...footage-palestinian-teenagers-shot-dead-video

 

[jakonovski]

Illegal settlements is not an issue and is simply a way to delegitimize Israel.

Wow. Now I have heard it all.

It's soul, he's our resident self-admitted war criminal.

 

[dripdripsplash]

This article and incident is from a year ago. Perhaps I am missing your comment on this?

Oh didn't notice that.

It does still stand to show what type of people the IDF employs as soldiers.

 

[Quotient]

Remind me again, why are we (EU&US) tolerating Israel? Because we dislike their neighbours even more?

It's the only friendly democracy in the middle-east. Iran was a big ally of Israel and west prior to the Islamic revolution that installed an anti-western regime. The powerful Jewish communities in the US also provide political capital.

 

[RK9039]

Remember those two Palestinian children who were shot dead in cold blood, as caught by the CCTV camera? Yea. When you see Instragram messages like this, by IDF sniper unit members, and posts such as "Arab blood tastes good", it adds a whole new context.

Here's the video btw. NSFW warning. Graphic video showing two Palestinian teens being shot dead in cold blood, unaware and at random.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...footage-palestinian-teenagers-shot-dead-video

Why did they do this?

 

[Woo-Fu]

Oh wait, no, flechettes are for inflicting as high a death count as possible, aren't they? God, you'd have to be a real piece of shit to defend Israel here.

It isn't about death count, it is about swamping your enemy's support infrastructure with casualties. 50 dead? Can just remain there until it is convenient to clean them up. 50 wounded requires immediate support/response.

 

[Chariot]

It's the only friendly democracy in the middle-east. Iran was a big ally of Israel and west prior to the Islamic revolution that installed an anti-western regime. The powerful Jewish communities in the US also provide political capital.

At the very least it's the only state that buys nuclear subs from us germans.

Why did they do this?

As I say, I believe that a lot of Israeli, especially in the military don't view arabs as full valuable humans.

 

[deathkiller]

Yes, those missiles, you can say that the use of indiscriminate force against people using these missiles is unethical, but just because Israel has found ways to defend its citizens from such measures does not mean it should accept the rockets being fired

One of the reasons Israel doesn't have much support within Europe is that in Europe we have managed to deal with terrorists using only the police. I know that the situation is different but we had to deal with the deaths of hundreds without resorting to military actions.

 

[Baki]

And the Tea Party is a product of a Black Man being President. Hand your country over to nut jobs and the result is obvious.

If they didn't do the thing I told them not to do I wouldn't have had to do what I did.

lol

And to add on to Oslo from my above quote, we come to a 2007 attempt

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11103745



PROGRESS!!! But....



Aww. So close. Well I'm sure they just want an end to the suffering of their people that they use as human shields.

What do you expect from 40 years of occupation. Do you really think there would be no fringe elements? Israel is looking for any excuse to strengthen it's position. They dont want to give up any of the land they've stolen.

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

I can't take the news anymore. It's just too much. I want crawl under a bed in fetal position and shut out this mad world.

I don't post in these threads because it's fucking depressing.

I know It's important to know what's going on, but it really is just too much.

 

[Orenhy]

Hamas getting into power is a direct result of decades of Israel brutalization of the Palestinian people. Israel have done as little as possible to make any progress on a solution. So what do you expect the Palestinians to do? They don't even have the basic human right of self determination and here you say that they're responsible for what they get. Ridiculous. The people are beaten and frustrated. Anyone who is supporting the Israeli incursion into Gaza is either delusion, misinformed or just a rather despicable human being.

And that Bill Maher video floating about is just absurd.

I could counter argue the Palestinians are suffering from an illusion since the early formation of israel where they keep thinking they can rid of it, wage wars and conflicts, lose and get territories lost, and keep the same flame going. Unlike Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon who made peace and got their territories back, they just keep failing and not living with it. Not to say israel has been easy towards them, in many cases the opposite, but they had their chances with 3 different israeli ministries lead by - Rabin, Ulmert and Sharon.
Right now there is a war going on between 2 forces where 1 is immensely stronger then the other, but a war is a war, its not like in your videogames.
People in this thread need to do their homework, because reading the last headline on BBC aint gonna cut it.