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[Lazy vs Crazy]

Hamas isn't?

Hamas isn't a state, so no, it isn't, but that's kind of beside the point here. Hamas is a political organization and a resistance movement. Many if not most resistance movements use terror tactics, Hamas included. Where you fall on the legitimacy of the use of the terror tactics is going to depend on you feelings on the legitimacy of the resistance movement. I know people that were pro-IRA, or pro-ANC, and were ok with the terror tactics they used, for example.

Israel is a western democratic state. Western democratic states shouldn't be using terror tactics.

 

[Mighty Chin]

What do you expect from 40 years of occupation. Do you really think there would be no fringe elements? Israel is looking for any excuse to strengthen it's position. They dont want to give up any of the land they've stolen.

Yeah your fringe element is ruling the Country. If you elect idiots don't be surprised when idiotic things happen. Hamas needs to go.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Israel has signed the peace treaty with Egypt while expanding settlements.
Israel has signed the peace treaty with Jordan while expanding settlements.
Israel has signed 4 agreements with the PLO while expanding settlements.

The 'settlement' problem was not an issue until a few years ago someone decided to make it one. It is a simple way to delegitimize Israel, and obviously seeing the posts in this forum, it's working just fine.

You mean it wasn't a problem until it became illegal, which it always was

 

[Dash27]

What do you expect from 40 years of occupation. Do you really think there would be no fringe elements? Israel is looking for any excuse to strengthen it's position. They dont want to give up any of the land they've stolen.

The elected government of HAMAS is a fringe element? Israel, who already gave up a shit ton of land doesnt want to give up land?

 

[xKebob]

You guys are making it sound like the IDF went in to Shuja'iya and killed 40 civilians.
But - Shuja'iya is a neighborhood filled with weapons, tunnels etc.

So the IDF warns the citizens as well but Hamas tells them to stay, and why is that?
Imagine the IDF soldiers walking in Shuja'iya and suddenly Hamas soldiers shoot at them from a house with civilians inside it.
If they run - hamas keeps shooting at them and killing them.
If they fight back - hamas takes photos of the dead civilians and Israel look like the bad guys.


Now if Hamas really cared about the citizens' lives they would have just told them to flee.

 

[Mighty Chin]

Hamas isn't a state, so no, it isn't, but that's kind of beside the point here. Hamas is a political organization and a resistance movement. Many if not most resistance movements use terror tactics, Hamas included. Where you fall on the legitimacy of the use of the terror tactics is going to depend on you feelings on the legitimacy of the resistance movement. I know people that were pro-IRA, or pro-ANC, and were ok with the terror tactics they used, for example.

Israel is a western democratic state. Western democratic states shouldn't be using terror tactics.

Hamas was democratically elected to lead.

 

[Tactics18]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/israeli-soldier-posts-instagram-palestinian

Case from last year.

This is from more than a year ago, the solider didn't take the photo, and he was punished for uploading that.

Always looking for the ugly things. I can give you dozens of similar from the Palestinian side. But I will not.

This video is nice. it's from a few months ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnn5QesBEyo

 

[Pilgor]

Source for this?

All evidence I ever seen is that HAMAS rejects the very existence of the state of Israel, on any lines and even goes beyond that to say that all jews should die, regardless of location. They are a fanatical jihadist organisation.

The only sane voice of the Palestinians is Abu Mazen, which is Patah, not HAMAS.

In 2010, Khaled Mashal said the Charter "is a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons." Source

However, Mahmoud al-Zahar, the founder of Hamas said "The Hamas charter is a matter for interpretation. It expresses a political and social position based indirectly on the Koran. There is no doubt about the Koran itself, but the charter is a political vision. No one is thinking now about changing the charter, but in principle it is not impossible." Source

Additionally, Zahar said "If I were to tell you that the charter could be changed, it would immediately be seen as a concession and the collapse of Hamas’ principles. No one is thinking now about changing the charter, but in principle it is not impossible.” Source

For details on the Hamas Charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, and the death of Jews, look here.

 

[Joni]

Now if Hamas really cared about the citizens' lives they would have just told them to flee.

I'm going to destroy your house tomorrow, what are you going to do tomorrow? Be there and defend it; or see everything you have be destroyed?

 

[Ashes]

You guys are making it sound like the IDF went in to Shuja'iya and killed 40 civilians.
But - Shuja'iya is a neighborhood filled with weapons, tunnels etc.

So the IDF warns the citizens as well but Hamas tells them to stay, and why is that?
Imagine the IDF soldiers walking in Shuja'iya and suddenly Hamas soldiers shoot at them from a house with civilians inside it.
If they run - hamas keeps shooting at them and killing them.
If they fight back - hamas takes photos of the dead civilians and Israel look like the bad guys.


Now if Hamas really cared about the citizens' lives they would have just told them to flee.

Ice cold.

 

[NewEraBlood]

What can I say that hasn't been said.

Absolutely despicable. I really do hope that the international community responds to what's happening.

Just like they did in the past months when Hamas (the Palestinian elected government) were firing hundreds of rockets into Israel? I'm not saying Israels actions are justified or right, but they certainly weren't unprovoked. Hamas wants this to happen for the very reason of using civilian population centers as cover to create international backlash against Israel.

The civilian deaths are unavoidable, but this conflict is far more complicated than the one side bullying another that some of you seem to think it is.

 

[nib95]

Why did they do this?

No reason was ever given. It's simply yet another on-going investigation. According to the IDF the video lacks context and has been edited, which is not true at all. Oh, and the CCTV camera's on that building for whatever reason have now been disbanded. This is what the Israeli Defence Minister had to say about it.

"We are familiar with these tendentious videos. This was a violent incident in which Molotov cocktails and stones were thrown at Border Police officers, who felt their lives were endangered and acted accordingly."

Because you can clearly see in the video the victims are a dangerous threat. What with being unarmed and just walking around innocently and all.

This is the situation and response Palestinian's face daily.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=17663

 

[Maninthemirror]

You guys are making it sound like the IDF went in to Shuja'iya and killed 40 civilians.
But - Shuja'iya is a neighborhood filled with weapons, tunnels etc.

So the IDF warns the citizens as well but Hamas tells them to stay, and why is that?
Imagine the IDF soldiers walking in Shuja'iya and suddenly Hamas soldiers shoot at them from a house with civilians inside it.
If they run - hamas keeps shooting at them and killing them.
If they fight back - hamas takes photos of the dead civilians and Israel look like the bad guys.


Now if Hamas really cared about the citizens' lives they would have just told them to flee.

Israel fired blindly. There is no defense for it no matter how many excuses you make.

 

[Mighty Chin]

Just like they did in the past months when Hamas (the Palestinian elected government) were firing hundreds of rockets into Israel? I'm not saying Israels actions are justified or right, but they certainly weren't unprovoked. Hamas wants this to happen for the very reason of using civilian population centers as cover to create international backlash against Israel.

The civilian deaths are unavoidable, but this conflict is far more complicated than the one side bullying another that some of you seem to think it is.

A rational thinker....YAY!

 

[Codeblue]

Yeah your fringe element is ruling the Country. If you elect idiots don't be surprised when idiotic things happen. Hamas needs to go.

Both governments are run by lunatics. They both need to go.

 

[nib95]

lol

And to add on to Oslo from my above quote, we come to a 2007 attempt

On the topic of the OSLO accords….

Netanyahu admits on video he deceived US to destroy Oslo accord
http://www.thenational.ae/news/worl...n-video-he-deceived-us-to-destroy-oslo-accord

It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

Netanyahu's direct quote caught on secret tape.

"They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."

 

[Maninthemirror]

Just like they did in the past months when Hamas (the Palestinian elected government) were firing hundreds of rockets into Israel? I'm not saying Israels actions are justified or right, but they certainly weren't unprovoked. Hamas wants this to happen for the very reason of using civilian population centers as cover to create international backlash against Israel.

The civilian deaths are unavoidable, but this conflict is far more complicated than the one side bullying another that some of you seem to think it is.

As I said before , Hamas weapons are like paper planes compared to Israel's bullet

What causes the provocation.

 

[Zaph]

Why did they do this?

It's quite obvious the Israeli soldiers wanted to shoot the ground. But the ground was Hamas and used the boy as a human shield.

 

[Hyperactivity]

I could counter argue the Palestinians are suffering from an illusion since the early formation of israel where they keep thinking they can rid of it, wage wars and conflicts, lose and get territories lost, and keep the same flame going. Unlike Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon who made peace and got their territories back, they just keep failing and not living with it. Not to say israel has been easy towards them, in many cases the opposite, but they had their chances with 3 different israeli ministries lead by - Rabin, Ulmert and Sharon.
Right now there is a war going on between 2 forces where 1 is immensely stronger then the other, but a war is a war, its not like in your videogames.
People in this thread need to do their homework, because reading the last headline on BBC aint gonna cut it.

So what's up with the West Bank settlements then?

 

[jakonovski]

80% civilian casualties. Nuff said.

 

[xKebob]

I'm going to destroy your house tomorrow, what are you going to do tomorrow? Be there and defend it; or see everything you have be destroyed?

the IDF claims to only destroy a home if it has Combat means.
I won't let combat means in my house.
As i said below, if they just pick a house and shoot i'll be the first to condemn their actions.

Israel fired blindly. There is no defense for it no matter how many excuses you make.

Is there any proof?
If this is true then IDF actions are disgusting.

 

[Ashes]

Just like they did in the past months when Hamas (the Palestinian elected government) were firing hundreds of rockets into Israel? I'm not saying Israels actions are justified or right, but they certainly weren't unprovoked. Hamas wants this to happen for the very reason of using civilian population centers as cover to create international backlash against Israel.

The civilian deaths are unavoidable, but this conflict is far more complicated than the one side bullying another that some of you seem to think it is.

What would happen if Israel didn't drop 400 tonnes of bombs on the Gaza strip?

 

[RiZ III]

Just like they did in the past months when Hamas (the Palestinian elected government) were firing hundreds of rockets into Israel? I'm not saying Israels actions are justified or right, but they certainly weren't unprovoked. Hamas wants this to happen for the very reason of using civilian population centers as cover to create international backlash against Israel.

The civilian deaths are unavoidable, but this conflict is far more complicated than the one side bullying another that some of you seem to think it is.

You're ignore the fact that Israel broke the truce and started bombing Hamas after the three teens were found murdered. This even though there is no evidence that Hamas had anything to do with that. The rocket fire from Gaza started again first from the random militant groups there who were usually suppressed by Hamas but when Israel arrested and bombed Hamas leadership, Hamas lost much of that control on ground. As a response to this, Israel bombed Hamas even more at which point Hamas finally fired back. This was a stupid escalation on Bibis part and on the part of those who murdered those poor teens. This was a police matter, not somehing calling for the bombing of 2 million people.

http://m.theweek.com/article/index/264800/how-netanyahu-turned-a-police-matter-into-a-war

 

[RK9039]

It's quite obvious the Israeli soldiers wanted to shoot the ground. But the ground was Hamas and used the boy as a human shield.

Yup, this makes the most sense. The Israeli soldier was clearly aiming for the missiles underground but the boy got in the way because he didn't receive the leaflet. Completely his fault.

 

[Vastag]

Yeah your fringe element is ruling the Country. If you elect idiots don't be surprised when idiotic things happen. Hamas needs to go.

Israel is supposed to be a western democracy. It should not be killing civilians indiscriminately. I should not be able to find in less that a minute dozens of photos of kids killed this weekend by the IDF. Hamas are a bunch of teocratic assholes, but that does not justify Israel killing hundreds of palestinian civilians.

 

[Baki]

Yeah your fringe element is ruling the Country. If you elect idiots don't be surprised when idiotic things happen. Hamas needs to go.

The elected government of HAMAS is a fringe element?
Israel, who already gave up a shit ton of land doesnt want to give up land?

They are not the ruling party of country, but Gaza and only a recent development. I also challenge you to tell me how firing rockets at Israel is any different then "Israel's right to defend itself" you guys are falling over each other to defend.

That's neglecting the fact that there are continued civilian casualties when there are no rockets. That Israel continues it's illegal expansion into Palestinian Territories.

 

[Orenhy]

As I said before , Hamas weapons are like paper planes compared to Israel's bullet

What causes the provocation.

The provocations was that IDF entered Gaza to get rid of the tunnels that hamas burrowed from their area into israel, which they have tried to use for attacks during the last two weeks but failed because they got spotted. During that entering Hamas shot hand carried rockets at the IDFforces, and caused many casualties, and to cover the soldiers israel bombed that neighborhood causing the casualties to Palestinians.

 

[gatti-man]

Well, that is what Bill Clinton said about it, just a few days ago ...

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/i...ill-clinton-tells-ndtv-full-transcript-560395





There's more. He points the finger at both sides, but there's no ambiguity in his assessment that Hamas puts its own civilians in front of the bullets for strategic/propaganda purposes. I consider his opinion more informed and experienced than my own, a thousandfold, so I believe him.

This is exactly how I feel. Where is the condemnation and outrage when Israel is getting bombed randomly? I don't see any threads on GAF. Yes this is horrible and it's really hard to believe this is the only way Israel can strike back against Hammas.

 

[Razgreez]

You guys are making it sound like the IDF went in to Shuja'iya and killed 40 civilians.
But - Shuja'iya is a neighborhood filled with weapons, tunnels etc.

So the IDF warns the citizens as well but Hamas tells them to stay, and why is that?
Imagine the IDF soldiers walking in Shuja'iya and suddenly Hamas soldiers shoot at them from a house with civilians inside it.
If they run - hamas keeps shooting at them and killing them.
If they fight back - hamas takes photos of the dead civilians and Israel look like the bad guys.


Now if Hamas really cared about the citizens' lives they would have just told them to flee.

So now we're using propaganda drawings to justify it arguments...

 

[Hyperactivity]

the IDF claims to only destroy a home if it has Combat means.
I won't let combat means in my house.
As i said below, if they just pick a house and shoot i'll be the first to condemn their actions.


Is there any proof?
If this is true then IDF actions are disgusting.

Israel using flechette shells in Gaza

more is here
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza?CMP=twt_gu

To be fair, they're only using them because they are going for legitimate military targets and are trying not to kill any civilians.

Oh wait, no, flechettes are for inflicting as high a death count as possible, aren't they? God, you'd have to be a real piece of shit to defend Israel here.

.

 

[Maninthemirror]

5 palestinians in a room and 2 soldiers in a room. One of those Palestinian is a Hamas member hiding behind a Palestinian woman.

The hamas member is firing a handgun at the IDF soldiers hiding behind an iron shield in the same room. The IDF soldier will lob a grenade at the corner where the 5 Palestinians are and kill all Palestinians in the room

This is the situation on the ground

 

[Miles Quaritch]

So now we're using propaganda drawings to justify it arguments...

Probably part of the JIDF information pack.

Nah, I'm kidding. Or am I? It's hard to tell which posts supporting Israel's actions are personal opinion or paid for talking points.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

"Ugh, look at all those women and children Hamas is hiding behind." *fires huge artillery barrage* "Despicable."

 

[RiZ III]

This is exactly how I feel. Where is the condemnation and outrage when Israel is getting bombed randomly? I don't see any threads on GAF. Yes this is horrible and it's really hard to believe this is the only way Israel can strike back against Hammas.

Israel wasn't getting bombed "randomly". That past several years had been some of the most quiet and peaceful and Israel for a long time. The provocation was re-arrest and assassinations of Hamas officials after the kidnap&murder incident. This led to Hamas firing back as they considered it an end to the truce that had been in place. Imagine if Abbas had sent warplanes to bomb the Knesset after the Arab teen was burned alive. It made no sense and completely blew up the situation.

 

[nib95]

This is exactly how I feel. Where is the condemnation and outrage when Israel is getting bombed randomly? I don't see any threads on GAF. Yes this is horrible and it's really hard to believe this is the only way Israel can strike back against Hammas.

It's because by international law Israel is actually the aggressor here. By legal and moral implications the aggressive occupier is not usually seen as the one defending, instead it is the occupied and the colonised that are seen as the ones defending themselves and resisting occupation. That's the situation here.

 

[xKebob]

.

fair enough!
my bad

 

[Akainu]

I think Bill Maher puts a lot of this in context -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1zzlXleHU4


Not that it justifies killing hundreds of innocents but It's not black and white as both sides would have us think.

I don't always agree with Bill and yeah this is one of those times. This is nonsense even that woman is eating it up.

If controlling pretty much all of Gaza's infrastructure and whatever isn't occupation what is it?

 

[jufonuk]

This isn't going to stop until the majority of humanity becomes atheist and realizes this shit is pointless and self destructive.

???
#notallbelievers

not all people of faith believe in murder because you don't believe in the same things as they do, they rather just want to get along and on with their lives.

 

[Buzzati]

Things are getting worse and worse in regard to civilian death. When do the old arguments consider the new information? At how many deaths is the retaliation considered inordinate and redundant? There is a codified conduct in international law that relates to excessive force. All I see in this thread is the same old IDF fight-song with no regard for context of what's actually happening. What argument do you have to justify the current death toll? I am not asking rhetorically -- you may have one.

 

[RiZ III]

And as for this whole "human shield" bullshit that keeps going around, last time an Israeli incursion ended, the UN investigated these reports and actually found that it was the IDF that had used human shields. Probably happening again this time, we will know when this is over hopefully, not that anyone will care.

Those 4 children on the beach were not shielding any militants. Their murder actually showed how the IDF is operating: shoot anything that moves.

 

[Dash27]

They are not the ruling party of country, but Gaza and only a recent development. I also challenge you to tell me how firing rockets at Israel is any different then "Israel's right to defend itself" you guys are falling over each other to defend.

That's neglecting the fact that there are continued civilian casualties when there are no rockets. That Israel continues it's illegal expansion into Palestinian Territories.

Israel has given back a lot more land they acquired during various attacks over the course of it's existence. Arguably because they couldn't possibly defend it all, but gave it back none the less.

I'm not interested in defending Israeli expansion or even these attacks, what surprises me though is the people pretending HAMAS and the 'fringe" elements are just poor victims. Of the two sides they are by far the worst.

I get that the very existence of Israel is a big shit sandwich for some people, but as far as the ongoing war, that is one sided. Israel would be quite happy to be left alone.

 

[Joni]

the IDF claims to only destroy a home if it has Combat means.
I won't let combat means in my house.
As i said below, if they just pick a house and shoot i'll be the first to condemn their actions.

Your neighbour has rockets and my rockets can't just destroy one house, yours will have to go too. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[eudaemonic]

I get angry at this whole situation and sad at the same time. Both sides have asshats and innocents and I don't ever seeing them resolving it in a way that doesn't have mass causalities on both sides. And even then... the hate will still be there. It's a forever damned land that hold the irony of being an icon of a religion that gives salvation to mankind.

 

[JJDinomite]

America's greatest ally smh

 

[Ake]

I saw this on my facebook feed and I had to share it. It's in swedish from a swedish guy who is down in Gaza to observe with the organisation International Solidarity Movement. He has been down there since before this latest flare up and has been stationed in the Al-Wafa hospital until they had to evacuate it. This is his latest update from Gaza! The google translated text is here.

"I, Joe Catron, Charlie Andreasson, Rina Andolini and our interpreter is now back from Sheijaija after we tried to retrieve damaged during the ceasefire. We were guided by a young Palestinian, around 20, who wanted to bring his family. There is nothing left of the area, it is hardly possible to see where the road goes. We climbed over what was left of the houses when the Israeli occupation army started shooting at us from the road on the left. I, Joe and Charlie pulled back and Rina, our interpreter and the young Palestinian guide took shelter in the future. We stood on each side and took cover. The young Palestinian, who guided us went to the front end, we shouted at him to stop and the IDF shot him. He fell and lay on the ground, still alive. We tried to think of how we could reach him without all get shot, we realized that there was nothing we could do. 30 seconds after the first shot, they executed him in front of our eyes. Even though the IDF saw that we were civilians, and even though they said that there was a ceasefire. He wanted to pick up his family and was murdered. We could not do anything but watch. We do not even know his name and now he's dead."

 

[gatti-man]

Where is the best place to watch/read news on the subject? A few of my friends are Palestinians (us citizens now) and I feel like I should learn more as they talk about it sometimes.

 

[gutter_trash]

if only Arafat agreed to the 2000 Camp David Summit talks. Shit could have been different today

 

[Real Hero]

"I, Joe Catron, Charlie Andreasson, Rina Andolini and our interpreter is now back from Sheijaija after we tried to retrieve damaged during the ceasefire. We were guided by a young Palestinian, around 20, who wanted to bring his family. There is nothing left of the area, it is hardly possible to see where the road goes. We climbed over what was left of the houses when the Israeli occupation army started shooting at us from the road on the left. I, Joe and Charlie pulled back and Rina, our interpreter and the young Palestinian guide took shelter in the future. We stood on each side and took cover. The young Palestinian, who guided us went to the front end, we shouted at him to stop and the IDF shot him. He fell and lay on the ground, still alive. We tried to think of how we could reach him without all get shot, we realized that there was nothing we could do. 30 seconds after the first shot, they executed him in front of our eyes. Even though the IDF saw that we were civilians, and even though they said that there was a ceasefire. He wanted to pick up his family and was murdered. We could not do anything but watch. We do not even know his name and now he's dead."

Sounds like a 'human shield'....

 

[M.D]

Probably part of the JIDF information pack.

Nah, I'm kidding. Or am I? It's hard to tell which posts supporting Israel's actions are personal opinion or paid for talking points.

This place really is amazing.

Constantly trying to justify Hamas without actually saying it out loud, while at the same time minimizing anything Hamas does "These rockets are just firework!"

Then calling out people with different a opinion as if they are getting paid by some group to say what they say, like it's impossible to a have a different view no this subject

I guess you guys like democracy only when it suits you

 

[RustyNails]

Where is the best place to watch/read news on the subject? A few of my friends are Palestinians (us citizens now) and I feel like I should learn more as they talk about it sometimes.

Read up on this article as a refresher.

Keep up with the news here and here.