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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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Anne Barnard also tweeting the capture
Anne Barnard @ABarnardNYT · 12m

Scattered celebratory gunfire in Gaza City as Hamas announces it captured an Israeli soldier, Cheers and shouts of "God is great."

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Anne Barnard @ABarnardNYT · 16m

Breaking: Hamas Qassam Brigades announce they have captured an Israeli soldier.
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Kinyou said:
I was wondering that too. What are the chances they'd be stopped/ removed if Hamas would stop every violent action?
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There would probably need to be some sort of negotiated agreement in place.

The last time Israel tried that by itself (evacuating all settlements and complete pull-out from Gaza) it only led to an increase in attacks rather than an opening for peace. Buildings and other infrastructure (which were left intact after the Gaza pullout) were not re-used by Hamas. Instead they were destroyed.

But Gaza's leaders won't even agree to a permanent cease fire, let alone sit down to negotiate.

http://time.com/2984308/reports-hamas-armed-wing-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-plan/

A statement released by Hamas’ armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, said the group “totally and completely” rejected the terms of an Egyptian brokered cease fire, adding that without further concessions from Israel, “it was not worth the ink it was written with.” Representatives from Islamic Jihad, which also has been involved in the fighting, also rejected an unconditional ceasefire.

Roughly four hours after Israel’s security cabinet announced that it had accepted the cease fire, Israel said a fresh volley of 35 rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Israel, causing minor damage.
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After the beach incident, Hamas did allow for a 5 hour cease fire demanded by the UN, but had no interest in extending it. The minute the cease fire ended, Hamas forces had rockets in the air, aimed at Israeli cities.

Hamas sees Israel's request for a cease fire as a weakness, just as they saw the Gaza pullout as a weakness.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/israel-and-hamas-cease-fire-begins-to-allow-aid-into-gaza-1405585089

Mosheer Al Masri, a Hamas spokesman, said rumors in Israel that a cease-fire was in the offing starting Friday showed that Israel was "begging for the cease-fire."
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Israel's leaders have said more than once that they're willing to agree to a cease fire and negotiate a peace. Why doesn't Hamas do the same?

In all seriousness, if Hamas' leaders came out and said "We want to end the fighting permanently, let's talk." and stopped firing on Israel, does anyone believe that Israel would be able to do anything other than immediately come to the table?

The rocket fire is a convenient excuse for both Hamas and Israeli leaders because civilians on both sides see destruction. Remove that and their citizens (and the world) will force them into compromise.
 
Yep Israel has a mess on it's hands.

400 palestinians killed, 14 soldiers dead including 1 civilian volunteer, 12 tunnels destroyed and one soldier captured.

Keep in mind that Hamas escalated the rocket fire after Israel re-imprisoned people it freed after Shalit deal during the protests in WB about the burning of Abu Khdier.
 
Fuck Israel. Fuck Hamas.

Not a big enough "fuck you" possible to all the parties in this. Nothing but villains on either side, save the families being killed in the crossfire.
 
As someone whose father's parents both fled Germany before the war, this situation makes me so sad. Certainly, Hamas' Holocaust denial and other anti-Semitic beliefs are offensive to my heritage, but the callousness with which Israel is targeting Gaza is atrocious. Israel's actions make me feel ashamed to identify (ethnically and culturally) as Jewish.
 
Scrooged said:
Except that Hamas has stated that it's goal is to wipe out Israel. It's not a tit-for-tat thing with them. Israel shows more force because they HAVE the force. It should not be surprising that Israel is trying to cripple the government who is attacking them.
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This is getting ridiculously monotonous now. Repeating the same slogans hour after hour. As soon as one stops another picks up the baton and continues. But hamas this and hamas that. I do not want to speak for all of us here but I think we deserve at least a tiny bit of intelligent diversion from the script as a sign of respect for the innocent people that have been killed. Unless of course these women and children are worthy of being called innocent (as they have been dehumanized by posters following similar posting pattern in other threads)

Your formulated support for the zionist oppression is highlighted not by the fact that you passionately state it but rather by that you collectively, in my opinion, insult us with copy paste responses an inserts.
 
I can safely say I've never experienced pain. We have people living with what barely counts as infrastructure with no education, no access to basic necessities, no access to international business, and blockaded from any help all their life. And then to end it all, they are being bombarded to death. I can't even begin to imagine the kind of effect this has on the mind and what it'll drive people to think and become. I can't help but just weep inside.

And I can't help but weep at myself too, everytime a thread like this pops up I just try to turn away and not read it, just to escape from the guilt of being too much of a coward to do anything against it.
 
Syriel said:
There would probably need to be some sort of negotiated agreement in place.

The last time Israel tried that by itself (evacuating all settlements and complete pull-out from Gaza) it only led to an increase in attacks rather than an opening for peace. Buildings and other infrastructure (which were left intact after the Gaza pullout) were not re-used by Hamas. Instead they were destroyed.

But Gaza's leaders won't even agree to a permanent cease fire, let alone sit down to negotiate.

http://time.com/2984308/reports-hamas-armed-wing-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-plan/



After the beach incident, Hamas did allow for a 5 hour cease fire demanded by the UN, but had no interest in extending it. The minute the cease fire ended, Hamas forces had rockets in the air, aimed at Israeli cities.

Hamas sees Israel's request for a cease fire as a weakness, just as they saw the Gaza pullout as a weakness.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/israel-and-hamas-cease-fire-begins-to-allow-aid-into-gaza-1405585089



Israel's leaders have said more than once that they're willing to agree to a cease fire and negotiate a peace. Why doesn't Hamas do the same?

In all seriousness, if Hamas' leaders came out and said "We want to end the fighting permanently, let's talk." and stopped firing on Israel, does anyone believe that Israel would be able to do anything other than immediately come to the table?

The rocket fire is a convenient excuse for both Hamas and Israeli leaders because civilians on both sides see destruction. Remove that and their citizens (and the world) will force them into compromise.
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That's just fucked up. I don't get their end goal. It just seems fanatic. And Palestinian citizens are caught int the middle of it.
 
Orenhy said:
You know hamas has a whole underground network under gaza in which they are hiding y?
Its probably most safe to be a hamas official these days in gaza.
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Spacecowboy77 said:
How is this trolling?

Hamas has shown that it can dig huge tunnels that span kilometers to the Israeli border. Why can't they dig functional bomb shelters for their citizens?

Sigh. So much misinformation on both sides. I'm done for today.

It's so sad we'll wake up to other morning of fresh corpses and 0 hope.
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What am I even reading here? Are you guys really this misinformed?
 
Syriel said:
There would probably need to be some sort of negotiated agreement in place.

The last time Israel tried that by itself (evacuating all settlements and complete pull-out from Gaza) it only led to an increase in attacks rather than an opening for peace. Buildings and other infrastructure (which were left intact after the Gaza pullout) were not re-used by Hamas. Instead they were destroyed.

But Gaza's leaders won't even agree to a permanent cease fire, let alone sit down to negotiate.

http://time.com/2984308/reports-hamas-armed-wing-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-plan/



After the beach incident, Hamas did allow for a 5 hour cease fire demanded by the UN, but had no interest in extending it. The minute the cease fire ended, Hamas forces had rockets in the air, aimed at Israeli cities.

Hamas sees Israel's request for a cease fire as a weakness, just as they saw the Gaza pullout as a weakness.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/israel-and-hamas-cease-fire-begins-to-allow-aid-into-gaza-1405585089



Israel's leaders have said more than once that they're willing to agree to a cease fire and negotiate a peace. Why doesn't Hamas do the same?

In all seriousness, if Hamas' leaders came out and said "We want to end the fighting permanently, let's talk." and stopped firing on Israel, does anyone believe that Israel would be able to do anything other than immediately come to the table?

The rocket fire is a convenient excuse for both Hamas and Israeli leaders because civilians on both sides see destruction. Remove that and their citizens (and the world) will force them into compromise.
Click to expand...
But Hamas already did. They agreed to 67 borders. They also offered a 10 year truce based on these conditions:
  • Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
  • Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
  • Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
  • Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
  • Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
  • Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.
  • International forces on the borders.
  • Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.
  • Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
  • Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
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Do you find any bullet points unreasonable.
 
Also keep in mind that Hamas has offered these truce offers called "Hudna" to Israel repeatedly and Israel keeps ignoring them. Here is one from 2004
ERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel has dismissed as ridiculous a proposal from the main Palestinian militant group, Hamas, to declare a 10-year truce if the Jewish state withdraws from territory occupied since 1967.

Top Hamas official Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi told Reuters late on Sunday Hamas had come to the conclusion that it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage, so we accept a phased liberation".

"We accept a state in the West Bank, including Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. We propose a 10-year truce in return for (Israeli) withdrawal and the establishment of a state," he said in a telephone interview from hiding in the Gaza Strip.

His comments appeared to strengthen signs of a big political shift by a faction sworn to destroy Israel and now seeming to move closer to the aims of Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority.

Israel says any talk of Hamas moderation is a smokescreen for military preparations by a group at the forefront of suicide bombings and shooting attacks.

"It is quite ridiculous that a terrorist organisation sets conditions for a ceasefire," said government spokesman Avi Pazner on Monday in response to Rantissi's proposal.
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Dash27 said:
Except for the fact that it is a democracy, with rule of law and protection for minorities. But on the other hand, HAMAS is regarded as a terrorist organization by many western nations. So it's really too close to call.
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It can't be a genuine democracy if a specific group of people are statutorily given more rights than another. If Israel would drop this "Jewish state" bullshit, and treat it's citizens neutrally then I'd change my mind on this (that would not however justify barbarism towards Palestinians).

Father_Brain said:
A quasi-liberal democracy? I dunno, honestly, but theocracy certainly isn't it.
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I would compromise on theocratic-democracy. I don't think it's unfair to say it has aspects of both a theocracy and a democracy. The fact that it is a "Jewish state" has to be addressed in its categorization. It goes far beyond simple institutional discrimination.
 
Kinyou said:
That's just fucked up. I don't get their end goal. It just seems fanatic. And Palestinian citizens are caught int the middle of it.
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When peace is nothing but lip service then what are people supposed to do. Once again look at the West Bank. Accepting "peace" has resulted in nothing more than further settlements, harassment and checkpoints.

There can be no peace without freedom.
 
Scrooged said:
Except that Hamas has stated that it's goal is to wipe out Israel. It's not a tit-for-tat thing with them. Israel shows more force because they HAVE the force. It should not be surprising that Israel is trying to cripple the government who is attacking them.
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But Israel is the one functionally wiping out Palestine, especially in the West Bank. A charter espousing a desire to wipe Israel out, versus actions and deeds on Israel's side that basically make a Palestinian state an impossibility.
 
Kinyou said:
That's just fucked up. I don't get their end goal. It just seems fanatic. And Palestinian citizens are caught int the middle of it.
Click to expand...

As terrible as Hamas might be as an organisation, I imagine that, unless all their (seemingly reasonable) demands are met, they have no reason to believe that the truce conditions offered by Israel are worth anything or will even be properly acknowledged - it seems that Israel's end-goal is the total disestablishment of the Palestinian state, whether that be by force or through "legal" means.
 
genjiZERO said:
It can't be a genuine democracy if a specific group of people are statutorily given more rights than another. If Israel would drop this "Jewish state" bullshit, and treat it's citizens neutrally then I'd change my mind on this (that would not however justify barbarism towards Palestinians).
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So just drop the Jewish state thing that ...is the whole point of Israel in the first place.

Anyway as I said earlier I'm not really interested in defending Israeli actions since they're not perfect. But compared to HAMAS they certainly seem to be.

Israel gave Gaza back what, 10 years ago? Yanked it's settlers out by force pretty much. HAMAS was elected after that and the place turned into a munitions dump with tunnels everywhere for the purposes of what you see here today. Goad the IDF into retaliating and put dead Palestinian civilians on TV.

How much has HAMAS spent on tunnels and munitions compared to infrastructure and food for the citizens there?
 
Razgreez said:
When peace is nothing but lip service then what are people supposed to do. Once again look at the West Bank. Accepting "peace" has resulted in nothing more than further settlements, harassment and checkpoints.

There can be no peace without freedom.
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Yeah, after seeing that proposal for a 10 year truce by the Hamas Israel doesn't seem to have many excuses left.
 
Kinyou said:
Yeah, after seeing that proposal for a 10 year truce by the Hamas Israel doesn't seem to have many excuses left.
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And after 10 years, then what? A war between I.D.F. and a fully armed military instead of what we have today? If that proposal was a a genuine peace agreement, Israel would accept. Truce, no matter how long, means shit.
 
GYODX said:
Yeah, it is. A couple of assholes doesn't really change that.
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Bigoted Israeli politician/leader say something disgusting -> sweep aside as a few bad apples.

Bigoted Hamas politician/leader say something disgusting -> generalize it to include all the Palestinians/Arabs.

Israel's an apartheid state that's pretty quickly overtaking Hamas as the worst of the worst in this conflict.
 
jKGNgN8.png


Wow....
 
Apparently Netanyahu followed through and has cut power to areas near Gaza.

The families and doctors are going to really appreciate that after the damage.
 
Israel has set the precedent that it only responds to violence, so I can see why Hamas thinks it can achieve anything by continuing to provoke Israel through terrorist actions. Egypt was only given the Sinai back after the 73 war, southern Lebanon was only withdrawn from after conflict there, and Palestinians have been given more by Israel when they had Infifadas than when the West Bank has been peaceful.
 
ironcreed said:
Here is a real eye opener and more insight into what is taking place. Beyond criminal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVNUcQ4fpB0
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Sure is. Who is that crazy woman? Specifically at 7:19 or so "Well it turns out Israeli's and Jews do exactly this" to which she was referring to the apparent torture and killing of a Palestinian teen. So essentially she's a carbon copy of who she's decrying.

It is interesting to see though. Fair and balanced ;)
 
titusandronicus said:
I'm not sure of the civilian casualty statistics there, but the reason they are so high here because of how densely populated the area is, and more importantly, Hamas's tactics of using civilian homes as bases. And telling Palestinians to become martyrs. The dead are glorified and paraded around the street.
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Link please.

Because if you mean those moments when the bodies are being wrapped in cloth and carried on the street , you have a very wrong view of what they are doing there and where they are heading.
 
Actually the Kerry thing made me wonder... where is Rand Paul on this? Obviously the Obama administration is on board with the "Israel should be able to defend itself", just as all the previous presidents are and were. What about Paul though? I think his dad is on record for leaving it alone, and he's had isolationist leanings. Has he said anything?
 
shinobi602 said:
jKGNgN8.png


Wow....
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I'm not informed enough to know which parts are BS and which are legitimate concerns (though handcuffs and tranqs sets off my scare-mongering radar), but here is the full transcript of those remarks which is probably more helpful than the CNN ticker: http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...-crowley-there-is-no-trust-with-the-russians/

Also, he spent most of the day trying to walk back after getting caught w/ a hot mic: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/20/politics/mideast-kerry-hot-mic/ not sure if this was before or after
 
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