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[Zen]

Your factual, objective and rational posts aren't welcome here, sorry.

I spotted two things that are arguably not factual in his post and it was like two sentences long.

 

[NewEraBlood]

Right. In fact, the majority of Americans initially supported the war. Thank God it was the opposite case in most of the rest of the world. But it's difficult to pin the full blame on all the pro war supports, they were massively misled by their media and government.

Honestly the US needs an entire media revolution and body similar to Ofcom here in the UK, that can at least somewhat enforce some level of partiality, and reprimand news outlets for presenting misinformation or being too impartial. Right now in the US, much like in many non developed countries, the TV news media is a bit of a circus, with agendas being pushed left and right, especially with channels such as Fox news.

Compare Fox News with Sky News, both owned by Murdoch, both conservative slanted, but the degree to which there is impartiality is orders of magnitude of a difference, mainly because of Ofcom, which empowers the general publics ability to condemn and raise a stink about impartiality in the news, here in the UK.

While I disagreed with going to war in Iraq, mostly because Saddam was useful in keeping the radicals in check, you're glossing over the fact that Britain supplied the US with the reports that Saddam was attempting to make a nuclear weapon. Of course our own, and many other nations', intelligence communities said it wasn't true and our government ignored them anyway.

As for our news media, it is indeed a circus. The big three are each worthless. Fox is always pushing a Republican agenda, MSNBC is always pushing a Democrat agenda, and CNN is off being incompetent with "on the scene" reporters. But our media being a joke is systematic of our larger problem, which is money in politics.

 

[Terra Firma]

According to Hamas, 1,027.

I don't know why you're not banned for making this same idiotic statement that you made in the other thread. It is completely senseless and makes light of the gravity of the number of deaths on the Palestinian side. It is simply evil.

 

[NewEraBlood]

I spotted two things that are arguably not factual in his post and it was like two sentences long.

"Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by Israel and a number of Western and non-Western governments; The United States,[9] Canada,[10] the European Union,[11][12] Jordan,[13] Egypt[14] and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization."

Factual

 

[Chumly]

According to Hamas, 1,027.

I truly lol'd at this moronic response. You made this idiotic statement in the other thread too and it was just as dumb that time.

If we were want to get down to it most of those "prisoners" being released were probably being illegally held with no rights.

 

[NewEraBlood]

I truly lol'd at this moronic response. You made this idiotic statement in the other thread too and it was just as dumb that time.

If we were want to get down to it most of those "prisoners" being released were probably being illegally held with no rights.

If you're going to make a statement like that provide a source other than "they probably were because I disagree with that side of the conflict."

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Hamas is a red herring, and always has been. Even if Israel manages to wipe out every single Hamas member, another group with another name will materialize. Thats what happens when you squeeze the life out of an entire population. Groups like this will inevitably be forced. Israel knows this too, and they know that their current campaign is only going to spur more hatred and radicalization. The ONLY way is to be willing to negotiate, and Israel has already stated this is not something they're willing to do. They would rathe keep the status quo, and just commit massacres every now and then to keep the cycle going.

Yup. There is one constant through the decades of the conflict, the oppression of the Palestinian people. They are oppressed in peace (West Bank) or in resistance (Gaza). Hamas is a symptom, not the main problem here.

 

[nib95]

While I disagreed with going to war in Iraq, mostly because Saddam was useful in keeping the radicals in check, you're glossing over the fact that Britain supplied the US with the reports that Saddam was attempting to make a nuclear weapon. Of course our own, and many other nations', intelligence communities said it wasn't true and our government ignored them anyway.

As for our news media, it is indeed a circus. The big three are each worthless. Fox is always pushing a Republican agenda, MSNBC is always pushing a Democrat agenda, and CNN is off being incompetent with "on the scene" reporters. But our media being a joke is systematic of our larger problem, which is money in politics.

I never glossed over that. It is one of the great embarrassments and stains on British history. But the vast majority of the British public were still against the war, and extremely skeptical of our government, and the evidence presented.

The entire thing seemed like a sham from the offset, and imo it was not difficult to come to that conclusion, based on the series of events and loose evidence presented. Hell we even forced along a public enquiry and investigation in to it here in the UK, which was obviously a farce, but was something none the less.

 

[Sibylus]

According to Hamas, 1,027.

So can we expect your concern once roughly 20,540 Palestinians have died?

 

[Chumly]

If you're going to make a statement like that provide a source other than "they probably were because I disagree with that side of the conflict."

Eat your heart out.

NO CHARGE, NO TRIAL
Thousands of Palestinian men have been detained by the Israeli authorities since the occupation began in 1967. Several have been detained under Israeli military detention orders, without charge or trial.

Israeli military order 1651 allows the Israeli military commander in the West Bank to issue an administrative detention order if he believes that a person must be detained to maintain “public security”.

Palestinian administrative detainees are held on secret evidence, that isn’t shared with their attorneys. They are imprisoned without charge for six-month periods, which may be renewed indefinitely.

Administrative detention is allowed under international law, but stringent conditions must be set to ensure that it is used as an emergency measure only. According to human rights groups and UN officials, Israel’s widespread use of administrative detention violates these legal restrictions.

183 Palestinians, including 11 parliament members, were held as of March 1st under Israeli administrative detention orders.

Lots more at the link if you want to read about the ridiculous Israeli "legal" system for Palestinians.

 

[NewEraBlood]

Eat your heart out.




Lots more at the link if you want to read about the ridiculous Israeli "legal" system for Palestinians.

I wasn't saying you were lying, I was just saying things like that should be sourced. Thanks for the link.

 

[GYODX]

I truly lol'd at this moronic response. You made this idiotic statement in the other thread too and it was just as dumb that time.

If we were want to get down to it most of those "prisoners" being released were probably being illegally held with no rights.

A lot of those prisoners took part in prominent terrorist attacks. Just read over the Wikipedia article.

Some notable scumbags:

Walid Abd al-Aziz Abd al-Hadi Anajas (36 life sentences) – took part in the execution of the Café Moment bombing (2002), the Hebrew University bombing (2002) and the Rishon LeZion bombing (2002)

Nasir Sami Abd al-Razzaq Ali al-Nasser Yataima (29 life sentences) – convicted of planning the Passover massacre (2002) in which 30 civilians were killed and 140 were wounded.

Fuad Muhammad Abdulhadi Amrin (1 life sentence) – killed 15-year-old Israeli schoolgirl Helena Rapp in 1992.

Ahmed Jibril Othman al-Takruri (1 life sentence) – Carried out firebomb attack on a bus in Jericho, in which a mother and her three children, and a soldier who tried to rescue them, were killed.

But yeah, "prisoners".

 

[KingFire]

No one claimed Hamas had WMD's. And it's funny that you say Americans "fell" for the WMD lie when it was British Intelligence that gave the faulty reports to ours in the first place. Also WMD doesn't just mean nuke, it also can be chemical. Which Saddam had, just ask the 10,000 Kurds he gassed.



I am 100% in agreement with this. I think both sides are at fault, and the ones paying the price are the civilians in Gaza and the IDF soldiers sent there.

Yeah Americans (majority of public and gov) fell for it. The British might have provided "faulty" data, but many Americans supported going to war based on that info, and the media did a good job of giving the impression that the data was reliable.

My post was a response to Moussi, who was surprised because people are falling for Israel's pathetic excuses for their crimes. I just replied by stating that it happened before and will happen. People are stupid. Period.

 

[NewEraBlood]

A lot of those prisoners took part in prominent terrorist attacks. Just read over the Wikipedia article.

Some notable scumbags:








But yeah, "prisoners".

I see X amount of life sentences, does that mean Israel has no death penalty?

 

[werks]

A lot of those prisoners took part in prominent terrorist attacks. Just read over the Wikipedia article.

Some notable scumbags:








But yeah, "prisoners".

When Israel violates international law and hold prisoners indefinitely without trial, it brings into question their entire judicial system.

 

[Toxi]

Israel using flechette shells in Gaza

more is here
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza?CMP=twt_gu

Anyone using the human shield excuse is a fucking nut.

 

[Chichikov]

I see X amount of life sentences, does that mean Israel has no death penalty?

Not in practice.
There's still death penalty on the books, but it's only for treason and Nazis.
In military courts (where the Palestinians in the west bank are tried) you can still get the death penalty for murder, terrorism or even things like dereliction of duty, but even though every decade or so some dickhead sentence someone to death, they always get pardoned.

 

[Random17]

Terrible.

And stupid from the Israeli POV as well; they had definite errors and atrocities in this conflict, but it went a lot more smoothly than their last conflict when white phosphorous was being dropped in certain areas. The media were certainly less critical than last time for this very reason.

They lost the PR war in a single night.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

So, ZERO Israelis dead by rocket attacks to you justifies this invasion? Do you realize that the 1st death by rocket attack came 11 days after Israel started bombing the shit out of Gaza?

I truly think that many of you are unconsciously bigots and racists, you just don't realize it. It's the only way to explain what many of you claim "justifies" the carnage we're seeing in Gaza.

How many Palestinians is an Israeli life worth? 10? 100? 300? 500? Infinite? Because so far the ratio is almost an insane 500 - 1, and many of you seem to be completely fine with that, continuing to spout your same talking points. Very twisted and depraved. I doubt the vast majority of those killed have anything to do with the rocket attacks (which, incidentally, kill less Israelis per year than lightning strikes, or peanut butter allergies. Statistically almost non-existent).

Hamas is a red herring, and always has been. Even if Israel manages to wipe out every single Hamas member, another group with another name will materialize. Thats what happens when you squeeze the life out of an entire population. Groups like this will inevitably be forced. Israel knows this too, and they know that their current campaign is only going to spur more hatred and radicalization. The ONLY way is to be willing to negotiate, and Israel has already stated this is not something they're willing to do. They would rathe keep the status quo, and just commit massacres every now and then to keep the cycle going.

Boy, I can tell where you stand on this topic. You're the reason this shit will never get better. Calling me a fucking biggot and racist makes you look like a petulant child.

Launching hundreds of missiles into a country, regardless if they are able to hit their targets, isn't a good thing and isn't justifiable. Hamas could have chilled out and attempted the cease fire, but they didn't. Both sides on the extreme want this, they want the blood shed because it only fuels their causes even more. Every dead child means more propaganda for Hamas. Every dead or captured solider or Israeli means more propaganda for Israel.

I never said shit about anything you're ranting about, maybe you need to take a look at yourself in the mirror when talking about subconscious bigotry.

 

[LNBL]

I can totally see the point of view from both sides, and it's horrible that these people are being killed.

However, Hamas continued to the poke the bear to rile shit up, they knew it was only a matter of time before Israel had enough to justify a full ground invasion.

But then you have government officials over in Israel talking about killing the mothers of the "terrorists", showing how they are just as bad and fucked in the head as the people they are fighting.

All the while people who just want to fucking live their life are caught in the middle between two extremes who are in a perpetual war.

What is it exactly that Hamas did to start this current conflict in your opinion? Explain what you mean with poking the bear.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Let's just put this 'Hamas keeps using human shields that's why there are so many civilian casualties' argument in it's place once and for all. It is one thing: IDF propaganda, no more no less.

http://goo.gl/Z6QVpm

Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch (16. juli, 2014):

"Israel’s rhetoric is all about precision attacks but attacks with no military target and many civilian deaths can hardly be considered precise [...] Recent documented cases in Gaza sadly fit Israel’s long record of unlawful airstrikes with high civilian casualties."

"The presence of a single, low-level fighter would hardly justify the appalling obliteration of an entire family [...] Israel would never accept an argument that any Israeli home of an Israel Defense Force member would be a valid military target."

"Warning families to flee might reduce civilian casualties but they don’t make illegal attacks any less illegal [...] The Israeli failure to demonstrate why attacks that are killing civilians are lawful raises serious questions as to whether these attacks are intended to target civilians or wantonly destroy civilian property."

"The longstanding failure of either side to prosecute war crimes in Gaza means that the only meaningful option for justice and accountability is legal proceedings before the International Criminal Court [...] How many more civilians will die as a result of unlawful Israeli attacks before President Abbas submits Palestine to this court?"
http://goo.gl/yCbCqi

Philip Luther, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Amnesty International (11. juli 2014):

"Unless the Israeli authorities can provide specific information to show how a home is being used to make an effective contribution to military actions, deliberately attacking civilian homes constitutes a war crime and also amounts to collective punishment against the families"

"There is no way that firing a missile at a civilian home can constitute an effective ‘warning’. Amnesty International has documented cases of civilians killed or injured by such missiles in previous Israeli military operations on the Gaza Strip"

And regarding the myth of the IDF being a so called "moral" army.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=121903510&postcount=3736

Collective Punishment
In 2011 a panel was set up by the UN with the intent of determining if the blockade of Palestine is collective punishment, the panel was comprised of 5 human rights experts appointed by the UN whom came unanimously to the conclusion it IS collective punishment. Collective Punishment is Illegal under international law


"Relatively Few" Civilian casualties in Gaza:
Up to 80% of fatalities in Israel’s bombing of Gaza are civilians – UN

Israel does what it can to only punish the guilty
Israel Deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish ... There were numerous instances of deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects
~ United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict The GoldStone Report
The Gold Stone Report
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-file...FMGCReport.pdf

Israel will call anyone a human shield and outright stated that they are not responsible for the deaths of any journalists if you so much as happen to be in the general vicinity of what might be a hamas agent. In fact they announced this shortly before indiscriminately shelling Gaza's eastern Shejaiya district, with journalists and emts caught in the middle of it.

Israels uses to this day their own developed DIME bombs in Gaza

DIME munitions were developed by the US Air Force in 2006 and have since been tested repeatedly on the people of Gaza, who have long served as involuntary lab rats for Israel’s weapons industry.

DIME bombs contain tungsten, a cancer-causing metal that helps to produce incredibly destructive blasts which slice through flesh and bone, often decapitating the lower limbs of people within the blast radius.

http://mirelamonte.tumblr.com/post/91991843448/doctors-spooked-by-israels-mystery-weapon

Israel using illegal poisonous gas over large areas

MoH: Palestinians arrive at hosp after inhaling poisonous white gas used by IOF in north Gaza+Rafah #GazaUnderAttack pic.twitter.com/q86XL7H8nZ

 

[Chumly]

A lot of those prisoners took part in prominent terrorist attacks. Just read over the Wikipedia article.

Some notable scumbags:








But yeah, "prisoners".

Not for sure what your point is. I clearly said most. Did you not see that?

The wikipedia article you sourced even says hundreds of them were due to be released within a year anyways. Considering the atrocities that Israel commits with its "judicial" system my point still stands that most of them were probably being held illegally anyways. Please feel free to read the link I had provided you.

Anyways I would love for you to Justify Pilgor's comment that this somehow means that the Hamas consider one Israeli life to be worth 1000+ Palestinians.

 

[GYODX]

What is it exactly that Hamas did to start this current conflict in your opinion? Explain what you mean with poking the bear.

Not the same guy, but isn't it pretty obvious that this current conflict started with Hamas launching hundreds of rockets into Israel? It took about a week of rockets and an ultimatum until Israel finally decided it was time to retaliate.

You can put those in the wider context of Israel's occupation and general oppression of Palestinians if you like, but that doesn't really change the fact that this current spike in violence is due to Hamas' insistence to shoot rockets into Israel even after Israel's ultimatum.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

What is it exactly that Hamas did to start this current conflict in your opinion? Explain what you mean with poking the bear.

Well they didn't start shit this time around, Israel used the death of those three teens as an excuse to do what they want, bomb the shit out of Gaza.

However Hamas had a chance to at least completely delegitimize Israel on the global stage by agreeing to the cease fire that Egypt initiated. If they had stopped, and tried to end it before it got completely out of hand, Israel's current actions would be much more difficult to be defended by those who support them. They obviously know the consequences of their actions, but like I said above to them every dead person is a martyr to their cause to wipe Israel off the map. And to Israel every rocket is justification for their own defense.

But make no mistake, there are plenty of people in Israel who give zero shits over civilian casualties. We know people in government would love to simply nuke Gaza and get it over with. There are no good sides on the conflict. The only innocent people are those caught in the cross-fire of two extreme ideologies, like almost every conflict.

 

[RustyNails]

Not the same guy, but isn't it pretty obvious that this current conflict started with Hamas launching hundreds of rockets into Israel? It took about a week of rockets and an ultimatum until Israel finally decided it was time to retaliate.

Yup, this is what actually escalated the conflict. The media's narrative of the story is "Hamas killed 3 teenagers, and then started shooting rockets into Israel which prompted the current IDF military operation in Gaza. No country can tolerate such terrorism!"

sigh.

 

[SniperHunter]

Here is the img of Hamas kidnapping the soldier

(I don't know if is true or fals)

holy shit

totally brazen. the Pakistani pulls off similar ballsy tactics inside the Inside the lndian line of control

 

[Toxi]

Not the same guy, but isn't it pretty obvious that this current conflict started with Hamas launching hundreds of rockets into Israel? It took about a week of rockets and an ultimatum until Israel finally decided it was time to retaliate.

You can put those in the wider context of Israel's occupation and general oppression of Palestinians if you like, but that doesn't really change the fact that this current spike in violence is due to Hamas' insistence to shoot rockets into Israel even after Israel's ultimatum.

You're ignore the fact that Israel broke the truce and started bombing Hamas after the three teens were found murdered. This even though there is no evidence that Hamas had anything to do with that. The rocket fire from Gaza started again first from the random militant groups there who were usually suppressed by Hamas but when Israel arrested and bombed Hamas leadership, Hamas lost much of that control on ground. As a response to this, Israel bombed Hamas even more at which point Hamas finally fired back. This was a stupid escalation on Bibis part and on the part of those who murdered those poor teens. This was a police matter, not somehing calling for the bombing of 2 million people.

http://m.theweek.com/article/index/264800/how-netanyahu-turned-a-police-matter-into-a-war

.

 

[Yagharek]

holy shit

totally brazen. the Pakistani pulls off similar ballsy tactics inside the Inside the lndian line of control

That image is from 2011

 

[GYODX]

sigh.

Does not change the fact that Hamas ignored Israel's ultimatum.

I'm not sure what you would have had Israel do. Let the rockets keep flying with impunity?

 

[LNBL]

Not the same guy, but isn't it pretty obvious that this current conflict started with Hamas launching hundreds of rockets into Israel? It took about a week of rockets and an ultimatum until Israel finally decided it was time to retaliate.

You can put those in the wider context of Israel's occupation and general oppression of Palestinians if you like, but that doesn't really change the fact that this current spike in violence is due to Hamas' insistence to shoot rockets into Israel even after Israel's ultimatum.

You call it obvious, yet you seem to not know the facts of this conflict.

Does not change the fact that Hamas ignored Israel's ultimatum.

I'm not sure what you would have had Israel do. Let the rockets keep flying with impunity?

You are spinning around the point that he is making with his post.

I'll just copy my earlier post for you.

The current conflict is about retribution for those kidnapped teenagers in Israel, something that Hamas denied any involvement in. It would be too easy to just look at who started firing rockets at who, of course the party that started is disgusting and in the wrong. But this conflict did not suddenly pop up in a few days, in the wake of those kidnappings Palestinians got shot during house raids and many more were imprisoned during the manhunt of the Israeli army.

Israeli troops have shot dead a 19-year-old Palestinian in Jelazoun refugee camp near the West Bank city of Ramallah, Palestinian medical and security sources say. Ahmad Arafat was shot in the chest early on Monday during clashes with the Israeli army, the sources said.

The army was conducting arrests in the camp as part of its massive manhunt for three missing Israeli youths. The Israeli military could not immediately comment.
The Palestinian security sources could not immediately say whether the army had intended on arresting Arafat.

They noted he had been released from Israeli prison one week ago.
The army was detaining dozens of Palestinians throughout the West Bank as part of its attempts to find three youths Israel said were kidnapped by Hamas near Hebron on Thursday.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Israeli-army...7/articleID/348777/Default.aspx#ixzz383OkS85H

In Dura's Haninia neighbourhood, after a night-long raid, involving many clashes with local youths, to detain a person Israelis consider to be a terrorist, as troops were withdrawing, eyewitness testimonies reported that a retreating Israeli soldier fired 6 shots and killed[95] 15-year-old Mohammed Dudeen.[87][95][96][97] Twenty-five more Palestinians were arrested at Dura and Dheisheh, bringing the number of detainees to 320, of which 240 are considered Hamas operatives. The number of sites searched mounted to 1,150,[94] of which 1,000 buildings were damaged,[36] the figure including over 750 homes.[95] According to Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Malki Israel had destroyed 150 homes by week's end.[98] In another dawn raid on the Dean's Office and Student Union of the Arab American University in Jenin papers were seized, and Amir Saadi, 17, was shot in the shoulder. The villages of Arraba,[99] Al-Louz, and Artas were also raided.[88]

Riyad al-Malki demanded Israel produce evidence that Hamas is culpable, stating that Netanyahu cannot 'keep blaming one side without showing evidence'. He said Israel's massive military sweeps were unacceptable, with 300 Palestinians taken in exchange for three Israeli kids,[87] but the Palestinian authority would act to prevent an uprising, for 'if the situation continues as it is, this will end up (with) the destruction of what we have built in Palestine'.[75][98]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

Israel responded by arresting large numbers of Hamas personnel in the West Bank and with air strikes against the group in Gaza.

After some Israeli extremists murdered a Palestinian youth in Jerusalem and Israeli security forces cracked down on protests, compounding Palestinian outrage, Hamas and other Gaza groups launched dozens of rockets into Israel, which responded with many more air strikes.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5902177/9-questions-about-the-israel-palestine-conflict-you-were-too

 

[GYODX]

.

How was it Israel that broke the truce when rockets were still being fired from the Gaza Strip prior to the kidnappings?

 

[RiZ III]

How was it Israel that broke the truce when rockets were still being fired from the Gaza Strip prior to the kidnappings?

Because those rockets were not being fired by Hamas. They were fired from random groups which Hamas had been doing a decent job controlling.

"In Gaza, Hamas had largely held to the terms of the cease-fire signed in 2012. While rocket attacks did occur, they were usually launched by competing extremist groups. Israeli forces also carried out their own periodic attacks and incursions inside Gaza during that time. But in general, things were very quiet for Israel."

Another article explaining this on the Jewish Daily Forward
http://m.forward.com/articles/201764

"The last attack on Gaza, the eight-day Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, targeted Hamas leaders and taught a sobering lesson. Hamas hadn’t fired a single rocket since, and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013. "

After the kidnapping/murders when Israel's war drum started to beat and attacks on Hamas began,

"In Gaza, leaders went underground. Rocket enforcement squads stopped functioning and jihadi rocket firing spiked. Terror squads began preparing to counterattack Israel through tunnels. One tunnel exploded on June 19 in an apparent work accident, killing five Hamas gunmen, convincing some in Gaza that the Israeli assault had begun while reinforcing Israeli fears that Hamas was plotting terror all along.
On June 29, an Israeli air attack on a rocket squad killed a Hamas operative. Hamas protested. The next day it unleashed a rocket barrage, its first since 2012. The cease-fire was over. Israel was forced to retaliate for the rockets with air raids. Hamas retaliated for the raids with more rockets. And so on. Finally Israel began calling up reserves on July 8 and preparing for what, as Moti Almoz told Army Radio, “the political echelon instructed.” "

 

[soul]

Because those rockets were not being fired by Hamas. They were fired from random groups which Hamas had been doing a decent job controlling.

"In Gaza, Hamas had largely held to the terms of the cease-fire signed in 2012. While rocket attacks did occur, they were usually launched by competing extremist groups. Israeli forces also carried out their own periodic attacks and incursions inside Gaza during that time. But in general, things were very quiet for Israel."

Hamas held the cease-fire?
Rocket wise it did for about six months (I'm not talking about the fact they continued to gain arms and dig under homes in the southern border, preparing to kill civilians when the day comes). Sure enough, after about that amount of time there's been a few daily rockets.
I would like to see the U.S. keeping a cease-fire with someone who randomly shoots at Texas outside the border every day 'just' 10 rockets and not the usual 100.

 

[Toxi]

Hamas held the cease-fire?
Rocket wise it did for about six months (I'm not talking about the fact they continued to gain arms and dig under homes in the southern border, preparing to kill civilians when the day comes). Sure enough, after about that amount of time there's been a few daily rockets.
I would like to see the U.S. keeping a cease-fire with someone who randomly shoots at Texas outside the border every day 'just' 10 rockets and not the usual 100.

Not their fault. The civilians are just human shields for the IDF soldiers who might be living there.

Spoiler

Just in case it's not obvious, the above is satire and I do not think any force should be able to justify butchering massive numbers of civilians with the excuse that the other side is using them as human shields.

 

[Scrooged]

There have been 1700 rockets fired into Israel in the last 13 days.

 

[soul]

Not their fault. The civilians are just human shields for the IDF soldiers who might be living there.

lol, I'm not even going to respond to that.

Edit - Just saw your edit. You got me.

 

[RiZ III]

Hamas held the cease-fire?
Rocket wise it did for about six months (I'm not talking about the fact they continued to gain arms and dig under homes in the southern border, preparing to kill civilians when the day comes). Sure enough, after about that amount of time there's been a few daily rockets.
I would like to see the U.S. keeping a cease-fire with someone who randomly shoots at Texas outside the border every day 'just' 10 rockets and not the usual 100.

They did hold the cease-fire. As I said, the rockets that did come were not from them and they certainly weren't daily. Your example of Texas being shot is fine, but if a drug cartel was shooting rockets, we wouldn't go and bomb the Mexican government especially if the Mexican govt was trying to prevent such attacks.

 

[RiZ III]

Not their fault. The civilians are just human shields for the IDF soldiers who might be living there.

Spoiler

Just in case it's not obvious, the above is satire and I do not think any force should be able to justify butchering massive numbers of civilians with the excuse that the other side is using them as human shields.

Can never tell what is satire when that IS the argument of the Zionists lol

 

[soul]

They did hold the cease-fire. As I said, the rockets that did come were not from them and they certainly weren't daily. Your example of Texas being shot is fine, but if a drug cartel was shooting rockets, we wouldn't go and bomb the Mexican government especially if the Mexican govt was trying to prevent such attacks.

So the U.S. didn't invade Iraq and Afghanistan after the Al-Qaeda bombing? I don't recall Al-Qaeda being in charge.

Hamas allows those terror groups to be formed and operate freely within the Gaza Strip to release itself from taking responsibility from terrorizing the lives of Israelis, thus avoiding retaliation. Frankly it's getting boring.

 

[TheContact]

Hamas allows those terror groups to be formed and operate freely within the Gaza Strip to release itself from taking responsibility from terrorizing the lives of Israelis, thus avoiding retaliation. Frankly it's getting boring.

Well it certainly didn't work for them if that's the case. They're taking full responsibility. .

 

[Zen]

"Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by Israel and a number of Western and non-Western governments; The United States,[9] Canada,[10] the European Union,[11][12] Jordan,[13] Egypt[14] and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization."

Factual

Good job picking out something thing from his post that was factual.

 

[Razgreez]

"Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by Israel and a number of Western and non-Western governments; The United States,[9] Canada,[10] the European Union,[11][12] Jordan,[13] Egypt[14] and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization."

Factual

"The ANC and its members were officially removed from the United States terrorism watch list in 2008" - that's a mere 6 yrs ago and 14yrs after the first democratic election

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress#cite_note-7

These terrorist designations are nothing but farcical labels

 

[cackhyena]

All the rockets ever fired by Palestine add up to 28 dead Israeli's, apparently. Israel have murdered about 15 times as many Palestinians as that in the last 2 weeks. Fuck Israel, and fuck the USA for allowing it to happen.

Are these numbers legit?

 

[m_shortpants]

Are these numbers legit?

Wouldn't surprise me if they were. Qassam rockets typically make a hole in a ceiling or wall if they hit a building, but not much else.

 

[RiZ III]

So the U.S. didn't invade Iraq and Afghanistan after the Al-Qaeda bombing? I don't recall Al-Qaeda being in charge.

Hamas allows those terror groups to be formed and operate freely within the Gaza Strip to release itself from taking responsibility from terrorizing the lives of Israelis, thus avoiding retaliation. Frankly it's getting boring.

Yea nice strawman. The US invaded Iraq for reasons still unknown, apparently it was because of WMDs but of course those were never found and the evidence the US did produce was fabricated. And Afghanistan was also a clusterfuck of epic proportions. I'm not sure what the comparison is here. We didn't have a sieze fire agreement with these countries nor were we an occupying force there. There is no evidence that Hamas allows these groups to thrive, by all accounts they have been holding them down as Hamas wants to retain control. And again, Hamas was not terrorizing Israel when this war started. Israel is the one who has laid siege to Gaza for the past seven years trapping and imprisoning 2+ million people. Let's not forget that they continue to terrorize the people in the West Bank even though there has been quiet there.

 

[Punchy4486]

I never glossed over that. It is one of the great embarrassments and stains on British history. But the vast majority of the British public were still against the war, and extremely skeptical of our government, and the evidence presented.

The entire thing seemed like a sham from the offset, and imo it was not difficult to come to that conclusion, based on the series of events and loose evidence presented. Hell we even forced along a public enquiry and investigation in to it here in the UK, which was obviously a farce, but was something none the less.

True, I was in High School at the time and was entirely unconvinced before we went into Iraq. They kept pushing the "if you're not with us, you're against us" and "if you don't support (the war) you support the terrorists", and that is not the statements of a government with the facts on its side. Just like when they named the blatantly horrific "Patriot" Act. It can't be bad, it has PATRIOT right in the title!

Most people gobbled that shit up with a spoon. They were so angry they just wanted something to be done, no matter how pig-headed, just to feel like we got "revenge".

 

[Dead Man]

Jesus. You can't destroy people and houses because a third party hides behind them. Fuck. People live in these places. If any other country did this to a civilian population there would be an outcry from the US.

 

[Aaron]

However Hamas had a chance to at least completely delegitimize Israel on the global stage by agreeing to the cease fire that Egypt initiated. If they had stopped, and tried to end it before it got completely out of hand, Israel's current actions would be much more difficult to be defended by those who support them.

Come on, you know this isn't true. These current killings by Israel are lucky to get a mention on the US news networks, and that will be just how justified Israel was in doing it. How much play did the IDF gunning down those two teenagers get? Zero, despite Hamas doing nothing about it. Even if they agreed to the terms, Israel has never been shy about ignoring what they promised and breaking the cease fire anyway. Why would Hamas agree? What reassurance would they have that Israel would stick to the agreement this time?

Hey, I'm not saying Hamas is making the situation better. I'm just saying they're screwed no matter what they do, even if it's nothing at all.

 

[boiled goose]

What is hamas objective? WHile israel should clearly act differently, from a rational perspective what does hamas hope to achieve??

 

[RustyNails]

True, I was in High School at the time and was entirely unconvinced before we went into Iraq. They kept pushing the "if you're not with us, you're against us" and "if you don't support (the war) you support the terrorists", and that is not the statements of a government with the facts on its side. Just like when they named the blatantly horrific "Patriot" Act. It can't be bad, it has PATRIOT right in the title!

Most people gobbled that shit up with a spoon. They were so angry they just wanted something to be done, no matter how pig-headed, just to feel like we got "revenge".

Actually, we knew Bush and his cabal were lying sacks of shits when it came to Iraq. When it came to Afghanistan people were mostly ok. They even coaxed the highly decorated Colin Powell into spewing their lies for Iraq. Iraq war saw the highest number of protests since vietnam, not just in US but around the world.