Because again, the point is HAMAS uses it's citizens as shields. It's knowingly bringing this upon it's people. Refer back to former US President Clinton's comments I posted earlier. That's the contrast.
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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]
- Thread starter L0st Id3ntity
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Because again, the point is HAMAS uses it's citizens as shields. It's knowingly bringing this upon it's people. Refer back to former US President Clinton's comments I posted earlier. That's the contrast.
phalestine
aka iby.h
Except it wasn't, it was spot on.
Pulling out (illegal) settlers doesn't equal "giving back".
You don't seem to understand that Gaza is occupied by israel not Egypt.
And this post kinda sums up your entire foray into this thread ironically enough.
For your own sake stop evading please, a dozen posters, like 90% currently posting are asking you to clarify your point. You are just embarassing yourself further and further. The oroborous might be the right avatar for you as you will end up being your own doom.
Which would be relevant, if people were arguing that Hamas's model is ideal or better than Israel. Hamas, as far as most are concerned, are just another quasi-government body full of hate that only exists because Gaza is a shit hole - that an occupied country has radical elements pop in and take charge isn't indicative of anything other than the country is occupied.
Blaming Hamas for the current situation makes no sense when the current situation in Gaza has existed before Hamas did. Hamas gets almost no support, and the only time people "defend" Hamas is when they have to explain to someone (like you) who blames all the hardships on Hamas, why it exists.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Hamas doesn't really use its citizens when they are also Gazans themselves.
Again reiterate the analogy I used earlier:
"5 palestinians in a room and 2 IDF soldiers in a room. One of those Palestinian is a Hamas member hiding behind a Palestinian woman.
The hamas member is firing a handgun at the IDF soldiers hiding behind an iron shield in the same room. The IDF soldier will lob a grenade at the corner where the 5 Palestinians are and kill all Palestinians in the room
This is the situation on the ground "
Hamas is not using the civilians, their innocent family members are the civilians. Its not Hamas is a foreign entity or an army, Hamas is a guerilla group who are themselves if they were not Hamas, they would be Gaza civilians. In a land strip where there are 10,000 people per square mile, where would you have Hamas hide. There is NO place to hide because Israel has made thier land smaller and smaller till the point that each hamas member would be squeezed in with each civilian. If anything the lesser the land given to palestinians, the more 'shielding' hamas has to end up doing.
m_shortpants
Member
Quite frankly, comments from any US politician are worth jack shit given how much control/influence AIPAC has/exerts.
Especially a politician whose wife is likely running for office soon.
If that's what you think, I applaud your efficiency.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Yes because as so many here are trying to do, they want to get bogged down on each and every event. Israel broke the cease fire, the Egyptian truce was dumb and Israel doesnt want a deal just yet.
So now my turn is to go back to the past experiences Israel has had to deal with from the Palestinian leadership as a pretext for their current actions; i.e. they tried to get things done how many times? From the 70's to Oslo to the current administration. It's not like any of this is new.
I would hope we all agree that both HAMAS and Israel both crap up the negotiations to suit there political needs. HAMAS builds tunnels and bombs Israel, Israel pushes Palestinians out of their homes and restricts the border on their side.
My contention is simply that HAMAS/PLO/leadership is far worse and I base that on the larger, concerted world efforts at brokering a deal, such as, but not limited to, the Camp David Accords, Oslo, the Roadmap etc.
Pollux
Member
Funny how according to the majority of people in this thread the only "right" point of view is to side with the Palestinians.
Terra Firma
Banned
In this particular case, absolutely yes. Israel is completely in the wrong here.
Why do you think that's weird? Do you agree or disagree that Palestine is essentially occupied territory? If so, what do you think are the symptoms of an occupied territory?
Also, I'm sure there are plenty who also side with Israelis, just the ones who want peace, and the removal of occupation and settlement building.
Do I even want to google AIPAC?
EDIT: I suppose in that context I should have figured it out. Sounds like a Mel Gibson rant.
Who else are you going to side with? The people killing them?
m_shortpants
Member
It's not a black or white issue. But you can't dispute the fact that there are serious issues with what Israel is and has been doing.
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
The source of the videos is AlAqsa TV. Do you dispute the translation?
Terra Firma
Banned
The fact that you don't know about AIPAC shows just how little you know about this conflict. Why do you think the US is usually the sole supporter of illegal action by Israel? Is the rest of the world antisemitic or something?
RustyNails
Member
How is this funny. We have provided fuckload of links and documentation to support our reasoning, articles, tweets, amnesty international, reports from medic workers and doctors under shelling, etc etc, whereas the other side has just the charter of hamas to mke their argument. Who do you think IS right?
m_shortpants
Member
And it's not like it's some tinfoil conspiracy theory either. It's quite explicitly a pro-Israel lobby group with a lot of influence. The fact that he's never heard of it and dismisses it by relating it to Mel Gibson is quite telling.
I just think what is so absurd is how people in this thread are defending Hamas. This is a terrorist organization. Stand up for innocent civilians in Gaza, totally for that too, but trying to argue for Hamas? Kind of a joke.
Terra Firma
Banned
And the world is black and white.
Of course not, but this thread and several others before it are so immensely one-sided that it becomes an echo chamber that expresses hostility to dissenting views.
I translated this post, made by an Israeli on Facebook, which I thought is important and relevant:
"This is a father from Gaza. His child was killed today.
In a few months time, he will understand there is no point to his life.
In his anger, he will go and throw rocks on a passing Israeli car that's passing by.
In the car there will be a frightened child, who will yell "Death to the Arabs" in a protest a month later.
A soldier that passes by will hear it, and the next time he arrests a Palestinian, he will "accidently" hit him.
A bystander will see it and get angry. Afterwards, he will go help dig a tunnel.
Through that tunnel will enter a terrorist, who will enter a house, and shoot.
Someone would write about it in the paper, saying: "This is all Israel's government's fault, because they don't advance negotiations for peace"
Someone would hit him.
Blood creates blood.
Revenge creates revenge.
Hatred creates hatred.
Compassion creates compassion.
Regret creates regret.
Take responsibility, break the cycle."
"This is a father from Gaza. His child was killed today.
In a few months time, he will understand there is no point to his life.
In his anger, he will go and throw rocks on a passing Israeli car that's passing by.
In the car there will be a frightened child, who will yell "Death to the Arabs" in a protest a month later.
A soldier that passes by will hear it, and the next time he arrests a Palestinian, he will "accidently" hit him.
A bystander will see it and get angry. Afterwards, he will go help dig a tunnel.
Through that tunnel will enter a terrorist, who will enter a house, and shoot.
Someone would write about it in the paper, saying: "This is all Israel's government's fault, because they don't advance negotiations for peace"
Someone would hit him.
Blood creates blood.
Revenge creates revenge.
Hatred creates hatred.
Compassion creates compassion.
Regret creates regret.
Take responsibility, break the cycle."
Miles Quaritch
Member
Absolutely.
Their translations aren't trustworthy in the slightest.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker
m_shortpants
Member
The African National Congress was called a terrorist organization up until 6 years ago, for reference.
Do you know how and why Gaza came to be under Israeli occupation? Although again this goes back to who started what... but the 6 day war was the point that Israel took over Gaza, after being threatened with distruction by Egypt. Israel then gave control back in the early 90's as part of the Oslo agreement and pulled out settlers in 2005.
"My opinion is the correct opinion. Why can't everyone else realize this?!"
Funny, in that article it says,
..
You don't know what AIPAC is? .Maybe you could start by doing a bit more research on this conflict and the things directly or indirectly related to, or affecting it?...
Mighty Chin
Banned
It's not a Black and White but Israel is Wrong.
Too funny
Too funny
Dude Abides
Banned
Well, when the best the other side can muster is "dead civilians ok because Hamas bad" it's not hard to see why.
dripdripsplash
Member
Targetted killing of civilian in Gaza by sniper: http://youtu.be/sBakqLUBWP0
Video does specify a Israeli soldier though this is not verified.
Video does specify a Israeli soldier though this is not verified.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I find it hard to believe you read the entire piece. It's clearly lays out the deep rooted bias that's behind MEMRI.
Maninthemirror
Banned
add to the fact that nearly all of hamas has moved beyond their original charter of hamas and is now willing go back to 1967 border and just get it done and over with
A war from what, 45 years ago? Doesn't justify the current situation, not in the slightest. Israel may have pulled out settlements, but the settlements aren't the occupation, the settlements were the taking over of territory.
What sovereignty does Gaza have now? Can they feed themselves, clothe themselves? Build infrastructure? Can they even accept foreign aid of their own volition? This is not control. Israel is in control in all but name, and even then, the UN considers it still in control.
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
The translation in all three videos I posted is accurate.
For future reference;
قتل اليهود means kill the Jews and is literally impossible to mistranslate.
Terra Firma
Banned
Uh, is anyone here saying that Hamas is completely innocent? But Israel is absolutely wrong in this conflict and the bulk of the blame is upon them.
makingmusic476
Member
Vice's Armageddon Now has made me wonder how much AIPAC's influence really plays a part in the US's support of Israel. They point out that there's a large number of megachurches whose pastors preach that Israel's control of the entirety of the Holy Land is a necessary precursor for the Rapture, and they encourage their congregations to donate significant amounts of money to the Jewish settlers and put immense pressure on local politicians to support the expansion of Israel's territory.
Kenshin001
Member
How is Hamas wrong and what should they do?
wow fuk me .......
This is horrible, hope we get some clarification about what is going on in this video and who is shooting.
Pretty much. The situations are also similar.
who would u think?
Mighty Chin
Banned
There's one
Terra Firma
Banned
Hamas is wrong in arbitrarily firing rockets. It is an unsurprising response though due to their frustration with Israel but in the bigger picture, it is not helpful for the Palestinian cause.
Other things to be mad at Hamas about are thankfully in the past, such as suicide bombings. You'll note that as soon as Hamas got responsibility of running a people, its activities against Israel have not gone beyond launching ineffective rocket attacks.
Kenshin001
Member
So what should they do then?
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