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[Goliath]

Even if they built these bomb shelters, Israel has bombs that could destroy them and I'm sure they would claiming there were weapon inside. When they are bombing hospitals, ambulances, and blowing up entire families, I have no doubt that they would bomb shelters as well.

Let's be real. If we were dealing with a Hamas who would use their resources to help out the community rather then endanger them there would be no bombings in Gaza. If Hamas spent the metal used to build rockets and instead built nothing but greenhouses Israel would have no reason to attack. But that is not what we have. We have a Hamas that hides 20 something missles in a school, hides things in hospitals and peoples houses. Then the world is surprised when Israel bombs those places after warning people to leave.

 

[Spacecowboy77]

And what exactly stops those tunnels from being usd for good too? The tunnels have to go somewhere where they can get material, including medicine, food, conrete etc, even from israel if possible. Not just bombs like you might seem to think.

These tunnels lead across the border to Israel. Are you suggesting they are using them to smuggle medicine from Israel to Gaza? There is an open passage (Erez crossing, in peace times) where you can get these items without tunneling.

 

[Chariot]

Ok, if I follow your logic, they are smarter than that but then what do they gain from killing innocents? It's counter productive to their efforts.

More dead children = more foreign uproar and more survivors picking up arms against them when they grow up.

It doesn't make sense to me.

Indeed. Here I stumble guessing.
One possiblity would that this is no order and really individual soldiers and officers making bad calls with trouble of getting their hate and predjustice against muslims under control.
Another would be that they think they can keep saying that it was an accident and it works as instrument of fear.

Things is, I don't think they want to kill all palestinians, but push them out of the land. The phosphorus weapons and the splitter bombs, the rockets and the offer of warnings that they will let the palenstini flee. "Run, run! Run and we will not kill you. Run and we will not hurt your family."

 

[RiZ III]

Pictures from the protest against Israel in Chicago yesterday. It was hard to capture how many people there actually were in pictures. It was estimated at 10,000.

 

[Goliath]

And what exactly stops those tunnels from being usd for good too? The tunnels have to go somewhere where they can get material, including medicine, food, conrete etc, even from israel if possible. Not just bombs like you might seem to think.

Yes and the food is used to feed Hamas not the community, the concrete is used to build more tunnels so they can try to sneak more terrorists out for attacks and they smuggle other materials out to build weapons. Do you honestly believe Hamas is using these tunnels to provide food, shelter, medicine and other needs to the community? Meanwhile they hide equipment in places where civilians would die if attacked.

 

[jakonovski]

What is the bs red herring about tunnels? You don't need to kill hundreds of civilians to destroy border tunnels. You don't need to snipe civilians, you don't need to drop white phosphorus, you don't need to flatten city blocks.

Yet Israel does it anyway. It is crystal clear that this is a terror campaign, a part of a long term effort to destroy the Palestinian nation, literally if need be.

 

[Razgreez]

Let's be real. If we were dealing with a Hamas who would use their resources to help out the community rather then endanger them there would be no bombings in Gaza. If Hamas spent the metal used to build rockets and instead built nothing but greenhouses Israel would have no reason to attack. But that is not what we have. We have a Hamas that hides 20 something missles in a school, hides things in hospitals and peoples houses. Then the world is surprised when Israel bombs those places after warning people to leave.

Again you've yet to provide evidence of your claims but continue expound on theories based upon them.

Let's be real and look at what happened when hamas were cooperating. Let's be real and look at the West Bank where people are cooperating.

 

[Gintamen]

These tunnels lead across the border to Israel. Are you suggesting they are using them to smuggle medicine from Israel to Gaza? There is an open passage (Erez crossing, in peace times) where you can get these items without tunneling.

I've mentioned multiple things, not just medicine. Medicine might be the lowest of priorities during peace times. And wow they were allowed to import building material only if it was for the international community, that's really gracious of them.

 

[Spacecowboy77]

Indeed. Here I stumble guessing.
One possiblity would that this is no order and really individual soldiers and officers making bad calls with trouble of getting their hate and predjustice against muslims under control.
Another would be that they think they can keep saying that it was an accident and it works as instrument of fear. "

I really hope the first option is the truth but I guess both are equally plausible.

Still hoping for some good news in form of a cease-fire. Peace out.

 

[RiZ III]

Let's be real. If we were dealing with a Hamas who would use their resources to help out the community rather then endanger them there would be no bombings in Gaza. If Hamas spent the metal used to build rockets and instead built nothing but greenhouses Israel would have no reason to attack. But that is not what we have. We have a Hamas that hides 20 something missles in a school, hides things in hospitals and peoples houses. Then the world is surprised when Israel bombs those places after warning people to leave.

As it's been pointed out several times already, Israel didn't start bombing Gaza because of this weapons store or the tunnels. It happened because of the kidnapping and killings of the teens. They arrested and bombed Hamas even though there is still no prof that Hamas was behind that. It was as a response to that that Hamas retaliated. That led to this eventual conflict.

 

[Goliath]

Indeed. Here I stumble guessing.
One possiblity would that this is no order and really individual soldiers and officers making bad calls with trouble of getting their hate and predjustice against muslims under control.
Another would be that they think they can keep saying that it was an accident and it works as instrument of fear.

Things is, I don't think they want to kill all palestinians, but push them out of the land. The phosphorus weapons and the splitter bombs, the rockets and the offer of warnings that they will let the palenstini flee. "Run, run! Run and we will not kill you. Run and we will not hurt your family."

OK, do people realize that Israel has a large arab community. There are "palestinians" in Israel benefiting from a westernized form of government. They have Muslims, Christians and Jews living and working together peacefully. Not something you will see in most other countries in the middle east.

No if there was no fear of suicide bombings or other terrorists attacks Israel would have no reason or want to attack palestine. Why would they want the bad publicity, waste tons of money and soldiers attacking a place with no resources if there is no danger?

 

[funkypie]

See, this kind of murderous intent is something still I can't imagine because of the simple fact that Israel have the means to plain out destroy the whole city if they wanted to. This has yet to happen.

Call me an optimistic but I can't imagine a whole army of murderous psychos sitting on nukes and high tech equipment and they just use it to slaughter innocents.

I've read three of your posts on this page alone and I honestly can't think if you are completely clueless about the current situation in isreal or are stating these naive questions to somehow give isreal the benefit of the doubt.

I have no qualms stating if the international community were not watching, that isreal would have driven the Palestinians into the sea years ago.

 

[Gintamen]

Yes and the food is used to feed Hamas not the community, the concrete is used to build more tunnels so they can try to sneak more terrorists out for attacks and they smuggle other materials out to build weapons. Do you honestly believe Hamas is using these tunnels to provide food, shelter, medicine and other needs to the community? Meanwhile they hide equipment in places where civilians would die if attacked.

There is evidence that tunnels are used for good, do you have proof that tunnels were absolutely not used for such means? And of f. course tunnels are used for weapon smugling too, nobody here would ever claim otherwise, nobody. Again, nobody says that the acts of hamas against israeli civilians are justified. Nobody here will condone suicidal attacks. Do you need another affirmation that hamas does act badly? Yet tunnels were also build for good and that's an irrefutable fact.

 

[Goliath]

Again you've yet to provide evidence of your claims but continue expound on theories based upon them.

Let's be real and look at what happened when hamas were cooperating. Let's be real and look at the West Bank where people are cooperating.

Is there a ground assault in the West Bank? Is Israel currently bombing the crap out of West Bank? I don't think comparing the slow settlement expansion to an active military missions against Gaza is really comparing apples to apples.

 

[jakonovski]

Is there a ground assault in the West Bank? Is Israel currently bombing the crap out of West Bank? I don't think comparing the slow settlement expansion to an active military missions against Gaza is really comparing apples to apples.

Is this like one of those gaming industry trial balloons for introducing consumer unfriendly features? Massacre civilians to make a mere apartheid state seem palatable?

 

[Goliath]

There is evidence that tunnels are used for good, do you have proof that tunnels were absolutely not used for such means? And of f. course tunnels are used for weapon smugling too, nobody here would ever claim otherwise, nobody. Again, nobody says that the acts of hamas against israeli civilians are justified. Nobody here will condone suicidal attacks. Do you need another affirmation that hamas does act badly? Yet tunnels were also build for good and that's an irrefutable fact.

Do you believe that the tunnels built by Hamas are built with good intentions to the Palestinian community and Israel? Or can we acknowledge the fact that most resources gained by Hamas are used to attack Israel or expand their following to attack Israel.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Do you believe that the tunnels built by Hamas are built with good intentions to the Palestinian community and Israel? Or can we acknowledge the fact that most resources gained by Hamas are used to attack Israel or expand their following to attack Israel.

Are you counting food as energy for fighters? Medicine as healing for fighters? Can't all the equipment be seen to support the terror, from a certain point-of-view? Forget about good intentions, they are subjective. Non-violent intentions are not shared by the whole of either side.

 

[LNBL]

Is there a ground assault in the West Bank? Is Israel currently bombing the crap out of West Bank? I don't think comparing the slow settlement expansion to an active military missions against Gaza is really comparing apples to apples.

The fact that Israel is not bombing the westbank does not mean it's not killing innocent people there at times.

 

[Jackpot]

That's a very bold statement. Source please?

Also that video of the sniper is crazy. I don't really understand what's going on.
Who are the people across the street with the yellow vests and why are they just standing there if there's a sniper around?

here you go.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355828

if authentic, this is conclusive evidence of a war crime

Unfortunately this exact situation has happened before. Could have been about 10 years ago, a video of an elderly, overweight woman slowly trudging down an empty road with a bag full of shopping. Gets shot.

Don't forget this UN report and it's findings either…

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620







Nor this…

DCI - Palestine submits 14 cases of sexual assault and threats to the UN for investigation
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1476&CategoryId=1





There have been several reports now regarding IDF personnel torturing or threatening otherwise innocent Palestinians, in to signing confessions of crimes they never committed.

Don't forget Israeli soldiers forcing children at gunpoint to trigger suspected booby traps as they cleared buildings.

See, this kind of murderous intent is something still I can't imagine because of the simple fact that Israel have the means to plain out destroy the whole city if they wanted to. This has yet to happen.

Call me an optimistic but I can't imagine a whole army of murderous psychos sitting on nukes and high tech equipment and they just use it to slaughter innocents.

Death by a thousand cuts, the Salami strategy, call it whatever you want. A frequent method for countries to carry out deeds without triggering (massive) international backlash.

Ok, if I follow your logic, they are smarter than that but then what do they gain from killing innocents? It's counter productive to their efforts.

More dead children = more foreign uproar and more survivors picking up arms against them when they grow up.

No civilian infrastructure, blockades against medicine, etc keeps the state weak and fractured. Gives them control and time to expand settlements. And that foreign uproar is just background noise compared to the military aid other countries give them.

 

[Gintamen]

Do you believe that the tunnels built by Hamas are built with good intentions to the Palestinian community and Israel?

Or can we acknowledge the fact that most resources gained by Hamas are used to attack Israel or expand their following to attack Israel.

Their priorities lie with gaza, so there is no reason for why they would feell the need to help israel in any way. That's some high class idiocy I'm reading here.

No we can not do that. Do you have any evidence that the majority of resources are used to support the war?

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

No if there was no fear of suicide bombings or other terrorists attacks Israel would have no reason or want to attack palestine. Why would they want the bad publicity, waste tons of money and soldiers attacking a place with no resources if there is no danger?

So they'll treat all Palestinians like on the West Bank? Meaning more settlements, killings, destruction of property, mass arrests and degrading human rights? Sounds like paradise.


Hamas will resist there is no changing that. If Hamas falls then another will take it's place. This isn't a novel idea. Oppressed people will resist and the only way to bring peace is for Isreal to break the cycle.

 

[LNBL]

 

[Jackpot]

There's such a list of atrocities I just remembered another one that the fact I'd forgotten it and only remembered now genuinely shocked me.

Remember when Israel shelled the UN Observer position, killing them all despite multiple radio calls pleading for them to stop? And Kofi Annan said in one of his last speeches it was a deliberate attack by Israel to force the UN to withdraw. Nothing happened because of that and nothing will happen because of this latest round of tragedies.

 

[Chariot]

OK, do people realize that Israel has a large arab community. There are "palestinians" in Israel benefiting from a westernized form of government. They have Muslims, Christians and Jews living and working together peacefully. Not something you will see in most other countries in the middle east.

No if there was no fear of suicide bombings or other terrorists attacks Israel would have no reason or want to attack palestine. Why would they want the bad publicity, waste tons of money and soldiers attacking a place with no resources if there is no danger?

The same reason why they want to have their land there and not somewhere else. Or why they want a own state in the first place, after the lived over a thousand years without one. They want the promised land the bible spoke of back. I think it's something ideological.

 

[kobashi100]

Yes and the food is used to feed Hamas not the community, the concrete is used to build more tunnels so they can try to sneak more terrorists out for attacks and they smuggle other materials out to build weapons. Do you honestly believe Hamas is using these tunnels to provide food, shelter, medicine and other needs to the community? Meanwhile they hide equipment in places where civilians would die if attacked.

Whole lot of accusations aimed at hamas with no proof whatsoever.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Whole lot of accusations aimed at hamas with no proof whatsoever.

It's not hard to imagine Hamas using those tunnels for nefarious reasons.

 

[Vire]

Israel accepted the Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas kept firing. What do you expect to happen?

 

[Partial Gamification]

It's not hard to imagine Hamas using those tunnels for nefarious reasons.

The point is that its only half-the-truth. Keep in mind Hamas has a political and a military wing. Recognize how much aide this organization distributes. Not to whitewash the nefarious reasons, just to try and balance the narrative.

edit:

Israel accepted the Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas kept firing. What do you expect to happen?

Maybe include them in the talks next time?

 

[falastini]

Is there a ground assault in the West Bank? Is Israel currently bombing the crap out of West Bank? I don't think comparing the slow settlement expansion to an active military missions against Gaza is really comparing apples to apples.

Because they're not bombing the crap out of the West Bank, it's paradise now?

Peaceful protesters are sprayed with shit (literally) and shot with rubber coated steel bullets, or live bullets as shown a month ago when those two teens were killed. People are arrested by the hundreds and held without charge. Homes are being demolished. People are being forced to leave their homes. There are dehumanizing checkpoints set up everywhere restricting travel. Settlers coming down and attacking the population (with the army defending them). Slow settlement expansion? Thousands of people are being displaced every year.

Yeah the West Bank is great. Get out of here with that shit.

The West Bank has offered the peace that Israel has always claimed they wanted. For their efforts they were rewarded with an apartheid state. It just further highlights the fact that Israel doesn't want a peace partner. They wanna stall this out as long as possible, while they continue to expand its borders.

 

[aliensandwich]

Israel accepted the Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas kept firing. What do you expect to happen?

Israel isn't slowly taking over Egypt though. Palestine probably doesn't care what Egypt thinks right now. It's so easy to look at this situation and judge as an outsider, but BOTH sides would love to see the other dead since it's ingrained so deeply in their culture.

 

[Terra]

So.

What we have here is:

Israel bombing stuff that they seem appropriate. Even if it´s fucking hospitals and other important stuff.

Hamas using civilian buildings as their shields. And firing daily rockets on Israel.


I say here are two parties that need to calm the fuck down and sit down and talk. All those traumatized children will need care for a long time.




"What we´ve got here is...failure to communicate."

 

[Tevos]

CNN's breaking news headline this morning: Seven Israeli soldiers were killed today in or near Gaza, Israeli military says, bringing number of Israeli soldiers killed in conflict to 25.

No mention of the many civilians killed by the Israeli bombings.

Makes me fucking sick.

 

[Vire]

The point is that its only half-the-truth. Keep in mind Hamas has a political and a military wing. Recognize how much aide this organization distributes. Not to whitewash the nefarious reasons, just to try and balance the narrative.

edit:
Maybe include them in the talks next time?

They did, Hamas rejected the proposal.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

One of my best friend's Aunt died in Gaza, Uncle and their daughter are in the hospital O_O

Completely fucked.

 

[Terra]

One of my best friend's Aunt died in Gaza, Uncle and their daughter are in the hospital O_O

Completely fucked.

=((((

*EDIT: A lot of fire going on on the live stream now. Sounds like a front line battle. Battering guns, rockets and all sorts of stuff.



WON`T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN GODDAMNIT!

 

[Aaron]

It's not hard to imagine Hamas using those tunnels for nefarious reasons.

Yes it is. Because they've done shit all to Israel except fire worthless rockets that have killed only 28 people in like a decade. While Israel kills 500 in a day, and mostly civilians. If these magic tunnels could be used against Israel, they would have done it already. It's not like Israel isn't giving them plenty of reasons to.

So.

What we have here is:

Israel bombing stuff that they seem appropriate. Even if it´s fucking hospitals and other important stuff.

Hamas using civilian buildings as their shields. And firing daily rockets on Israel.

Fuck no it's not. It's a war crime to bomb a hospital no matter the provocation. Also, the UN has examined the issue thoroughly, and found no evidence Hamas ever used civilians as shields. While there's plenty of proof that Israel does, but somehow they're not held accountable. They're never held accountable.

 

[Joni]

They did, Hamas rejected the proposal.

Israel accepted the Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas kept firing. What do you expect to happen?

We have made it very clear in this topic why Egypt's proposal wasn't in any way realistic. It is what you get when the Egyptian government makes a point on pressing criminal charges against the sister party of Hamas, or in some cases just straight out massacring them.

 

[Slurpy2k20]

Israel accepted the Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas kept firing. What do you expect to happen?

You mean the ceasefire agreement that Hamas was never consulted on, and they only heard about from the media? The one that gave absolutely NOTHING to the Palestinians to improve the status quo? The one which Hamas actually responded to with amendments (you can find these reasonable amendments online) and Israel completely ignored the response? The ceasefire that would simply return Gaza to the blockaged, sieged, starved shithole it already is, without a single concession? The one where Israel gets everything it wants, and Gaza gets nothing?

I'm getting sick of these naive, childish, ignorant responses. People fall over themselves to spout their opinion based on the propaganda they heard, and can't bother informing themselves to the actual facts. The "ceasefire agreement" was a complete sham by Israel and their pathetic Egyptian lackeys to give Israel positive PR and further put the lame on Hamas, and it was not offered in good will. If it was, they would have at least negotiated with Hamas' amendments. The plan was made to fail, and Hamas would be even more damned for accepting such a joke. Unfortunately, people like you who can't bother to do a few seconds of research is exactly what's wrong.

 

[Interceptor]

The point is that its only half-the-truth. Keep in mind Hamas has a political and a military wing. Recognize how much aide this organization distributes. Not to whitewash the nefarious reasons, just to try and balance the narrative.

edit:
Maybe include them in the talks next time?

I was a cease fire to discuss the terms of a real cease fire. Just two days to discuss when and where to discuss the real thing. Hamas couldn't even do that. Why? Because they don't want Israel to stop shooting and they dont want to stop themselfes. It's that easy.

 

[Terra]

Yes it is. Because they've done shit all to Israel except fire worthless rockets that have killed only 28 people in like a decade. While Israel kills 500 in a day, and mostly civilians. If these magic tunnels could be used against Israel, they would have done it already. It's not like Israel isn't giving them plenty of reasons to.

But this is the problem to the escalation!

I am not taking anyones party here, but would it feel nicer in your heart if those rockets weren´t "worthless"? Would they be more "worth" to you if they killed more people? I don´t get it.

I am just glad that I am not part of this crazy conflict.

 

[Vire]

You mean the ceasefire agreement that Hamas was never consulted on, and they only heard about from the media? The one that gave absolutely NOTHING to the Palestinians to improve the status quo? The one which Hamas actually responded to with amendments (you can find these reasonable amendments online) and Israel completely ignored the response? The ceasefire that would simply return Gaza to the blockaged, sieged, starved shithole it already is, without a single concession? The one where Israel gets everything it wants, and Gaza gets nothing?

Question, who started firing missiles first?

 

[Joni]

I was a cease fire to discuss the terms of a real cease fire. Just two days to discuss when and where to discuss the real thing. Hamas couldn't even do that. Why? Because they don't want Israel to stop shooting and they dont want to stop themselfes. It's that easy.

Yes, Hamas would certainly feel safe talking to Egypt.

On 24 March 2014, an Egyptian court sentenced 529 members of the Muslim Brotherhood to death.[104] By May 2014, approximately 16,000 people (and as high as more than 40,000 by one independent count),[105] mostly Brotherhood members or supporters, have been imprisoned since the coup.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a movement, not a political party, but members have created political parties in several countries, such as the Islamic Action Front in Jordan and Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank and the newly created Freedom and Justice Party in Egypt. These parties are staffed by Brotherhood members but kept independent from the Muslim Brotherhood to some degree, unlike Hizb ut-Tahrir which is highly centralized.

 

[Partial Gamification]

I was a cease fire to discuss the terms of a real cease fire. Just two days to discuss when and where to discuss the real thing. Hamas couldn't even do that. Why? Because they don't want Israel to stop shooting and they dont want to stop themselfes. It's that easy.

They weren't included in the talks and they wanted the prisoners released that Israel has re-arrested prior to this conflict. If it were that easy then we could agree that Hamas is bad and Israel is good. I believe there is a great deal of nuance lacking in your simplicity.

 

[kamorra]

Question, who started firing missiles first?

Question, who started this whole shit?

 

[Aaron]

But this is the problem to the escalation!

I am not taking anyones party here, but would it feel nicer in your heart if those rockets weren´t "worthless"? Would they be more "worth" to you if they killed more people? I don´t get it.

You don't understand that Hamas' rockets (most not actually sanctioned by Hamas but extremist groups they can't control) and the human shields (the latter being a complete fabrication) are just Israel's excuses for slaughtering defenseless people? That calling Hamas a terrorist organization is Israel propaganda? I guess they're in good company though since the US labeled Nelson Mandala a terrorist up until a few years before his death. Still, probably the most ineffective terrorist organization of all time. Compare them to AQ and ISIS they're a joke.

Question, who started firing missiles first?

This time? Israel. Last time? Also Israel.

 

[Terra]

Question, who started this whole shit?

I bet that everyone has forgotten what they are fighting for about now.

 

[Interceptor]

Yes, Hamas would certainly feel safe talking to Egypt.

What has this to do with anything? Is hamas threatened by Egypt? Is Egypt about to invade? It was a cease fire to discuss a future cease fire. Nothing more.

 

[Stet]

Question, who started this whole shit?

That's a silly question. The UN, in 1947.

 

[Partial Gamification]

I bet that everyone has forgotten what they are fighting for about now.

Where is the concern for the investigation of the three abducted and murdered Israelis that lead to the revenge killing of the Palestinian (and beating of his American cousin)? Has any proof surfaced in the past day that shows Hamas was responsible?

 

[Dash27]

Yes it is. Because they've done shit all to Israel except fire worthless rockets that have killed only 28 people in like a decade. While Israel kills 500 in a day, and mostly civilians. If these magic tunnels could be used against Israel, they would have done it already. It's not like Israel isn't giving them plenty of reasons to.

Do you live in an area bombed by 'worthless rockets" and have to go to bomb shelters ever day? Or just judge other people for wanting that to stop.

As for the tunnels:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...t-tunnel-into-israel-2013102104447900777.html

The military wing of Gaza's ruling Hamas movement has said it built a tunnel found by Israelis beneath the heavily fortified Israel-Gaza frontier.

"This tunnel was made by the hand of the fighters of (Izzadine) al-Qassam and they will not sleep in their efforts to hit the occupation and kidnap soldiers," the group's spokesman Abu Obeida told Hamas's al-Aqsa radio.

"We are working on the ground and under the ground to release the prisoners [held by Israel]," he said.

"Kidnapping soldiers is the only way to succeed against the occupation."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e14608-0f0b-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

In a second attempt Saturday to enter Israel through their tunnels, Hamas militants were found carrying handcuffs and tranquilizers in an apparent attempt to kidnap soldiers, Israel’s military said, adding that the militants were killed. In a third incident, a militant emerged from a concealed tunnel entrance in southern Gaza and began firing at soldiers.