Uncle Rupee
Banned
The point of the analogy is that some ideas can be so bad, so offensive, that they are unforgivable. Maybe you can forgive them, but that doesn't mean everyone else will.
Jimquisition (July 21) - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
The point of the analogy is that some ideas can be so bad, so offensive, that they are unforgivable. Maybe you can forgive them, but that doesn't mean everyone else will.
graywolf323
Member
weren't you the one that brought it up...
Xenon
Member
If failing to follow along a doomed path, is failure I'm sure MS will take it. Personally I think they should have kept it Kinect only but I can see why they decided to remove it.
I would also add that I love the OS and media functionality. Outside of performance, I like everything better on the XBO. But even then I could see myself being happy with multiplats on it if I didn't own a PS4.
I would also add that I love the OS and media functionality. Outside of performance, I like everything better on the XBO. But even then I could see myself being happy with multiplats on it if I didn't own a PS4.
Good episode, Jim. Goes right for the throat and is bang on the money.
Even ignoring the bullshit machine Microsoft has had us all dancing to since announce, I've personally found XB1 to be a massive disappointment since I got it, and I'm planning on selling it in the near future... to help fund a PS4 purchase (Because I'll need to play Destiny and Bloodborne somehow).
Better luck next console. Assuming there are any "next consoles" at all (From anyone), lol.
Even ignoring the bullshit machine Microsoft has had us all dancing to since announce, I've personally found XB1 to be a massive disappointment since I got it, and I'm planning on selling it in the near future... to help fund a PS4 purchase (Because I'll need to play Destiny and Bloodborne somehow).
Better luck next console. Assuming there are any "next consoles" at all (From anyone), lol.
"Don't be so quick to forget guys! They did bad things! Don't like them yet!"
ShinMaruku
Member
Brilliant show. It's exactly why I won't buy a xbone. Mainly because of the intent and how they dropped things after it went south. They should never have considered that shit.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Oh please. How can you compare the DRM nightmare future MS originally planned with the Xbone to the iPod Mini?
And are you saying that the Xbox One, as originally planned, was a great product?!
Not what I am arguing. I am arguing that companies, no matter what they build, still have to listen to consumers. What happened was exactly what had to happen in a free market. Consumers saw a product. They saw something they did not like, and they spoke up about it. They made it impossible for Microsoft to see a viable business strategy if they did not change. They changed.
Guess what? If the iPad Mini would have bombed at market, Apple would have changed. It's the reality. Microsoft SAW the pre-order numbers, saw they were getting crushed, and they rushed to change before it was too late. And they are still suffering from weak numbers due to it. That's how the free market works.
And that's how it should work. It's not about forcing these amazingly grand inventors to compromise on their vision (if you can even call Microsoft's pathetic initial unveiling a 'vision'), it's about realizing that just because you have a vision doesn't mean people are going to have to accept it, especially when it's wildly disrespectful or deceitful to the consumers.
Now, you can be one of those people who keeps your mouth shut. You can spend endless dollars on these products, and then think it's your job to be a meek little lamb who just nods his head peacefully when a company attempts to do something that is offensive to you personally. You can be that person. But don't come in here and tell other consumers that's how THEY need to be. It's basically obscene.
SirPenguin
Member
I sincerely hope that, when all is said and done, any postmortem will include more than just marketing data
On paper, this could seem like a lose-lose situation for Microsoft. "We reveal non-game features and you hate us, and then we remove non-game features and you hate us"
As this video shows, its more complex than that. I think the real problem was that people just weren't sold on some features, or the features themselves had a poor implementation
Instead of better communicating the features or improving the implementations they cut them, which honestly benefits no one
On paper, this could seem like a lose-lose situation for Microsoft. "We reveal non-game features and you hate us, and then we remove non-game features and you hate us"
As this video shows, its more complex than that. I think the real problem was that people just weren't sold on some features, or the features themselves had a poor implementation
Instead of better communicating the features or improving the implementations they cut them, which honestly benefits no one
Metallix87
Member
1.) Sony arrogance
2.) PS1 > PS2? You mean when SCEA was bullying Capcom and other third parties around about their 2D games, and also when Sony ended up getting sued over DRE?
Yeah, these quotes were incredibly stupid. They should have let the hardware speak for itself. My problem is that it seems like many people put the quotes at the top of the pyramid and the actual value of the hardware in 2006 at the bottom. I rarely see anyone consider the hardware when someone mentions "arrogant Sony".
Oh, and one thing people don't consider when they bring that up. No one who said those quotes are there now.
I find that all companies respect their bottom lines above their consumers. The key is making it seem that the two are one in the same. It's erroneous to hold MS to this charge and not their competitors, because they are all in this business to make money.
Sony in particular read the market better this time around. It held the line, and will push into new territories now that their base is secure. But they're not doing it in goodwill to the consumers (PS Now prices and charging for online is proof enough that before everything, they're a business).
This is why it's absolutely important that consumers flex their purchasing power and fight for their rights. Companies will do what they think they can get away with. Xbox being rejected is a victory that should be remembered, and consumers should be thankful to other consumers, not Sony or Microsoft or whomever.
As far as apologizing, I won't argue with you that a consumer should have a right to withhold his or her purchase for any reason. I will never argue against consumer rights. An expression of contrition is useless to me though, it's responding to my demands that I care about. For the simple reason is that it's all patronizing; they'll say whatever necessary to get my dollar.
If Xbox was still under the same leadership and this flip flopping happened, then yeah I would be worried. They also haven't really changed the message. It's still supposed to be an all-in-one entertainment system, only instead of it being 90% TV, 5% Apps and 5% games, it's a more balanced approach.
how is Xbox a failing product? because it doesn't sell as well as the PS4? Aren't both systems selling better than their predecessors? GAF has a funny definition of failure. When Ricky Bobby said "if you're not first, you're last" he wasn't actually being serious, it was a comedy movie.
Metallix87
Member
No, I was not.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
If little timmy is a whiny little bitch and his parents think $499 is a reasonable price to pay to stop the little brat crying all day then guess what?
The "value" of the console is $499.
Otherwise they tell him to shut up and be happy with his new Optimus Prime toy.
That's how shopping works, how are you not getting this?
Jim Sterling, hyperbolic? Say it ain't so!
So the Xbox changed to what basically the majority of hardcore gamers wanted, and that's still something to be angry about. Ok. No pleasing people.
Thanks for summing it up. Sadly, I feel like a lot of these kind of videos have people missing the point. I have no issue with people disagreeing with Jim, I mean opinions are opinions. But it feels like sometimes the intention of the video is sometimes mistaken for something else.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Because it has consistently lost billions of dollars over the years, and the only reason it has the appearance of making money now is because Microsoft bundles its numbers together with other devices?
happens all the time.
you should have seen the thread about the one guy who built an 80s arcade in his bedroom and lost his fiancee over it. Like 8 pages straight of not one person reading the topic and also being incredibly misogynistic. It was remarkable.
mightynine
Member
Well, for one thing, what Microsoft did was not a price drop. Selling w/ Kinect at $399 would be a price drop. What's being offered at that price point is an entirely new option, one that was not available at the time someone who already bought a Xbox One decided to buy one - even if they didn't want or see the value in Kinect.
But with no indication at that time - that Microsoft would soon offer a second option to consider - and actively responding to such claims that one was not coming anytime soon , that Kinect would be a key part of what the Xbox One offered going forward - they may have decided to bite the bullet anyway, hoping that Kinect would pay off in the end.
Quite frankly, I don't see what this being a "luxury item" has to do with anything.
Guardian Monkey
Member
Blah blah blah.. I wouldn't get upset at a console maker and hold a grudge... If the ps4 continues it's roll don't be surprised a shift in consumer policies and ps5 at 899$.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
gioGAF
Member
Amen to that. Xbox One was built on a mountain of crap and lies. I'm glad people were not so eager to get bent over by MS this time around. Like Jim said, this doesn't mean that there aren't talented developers working on games for the system, but the system itself is a failure given what MS said it was going to be. Its differentiating features are gone, it is nothing more than a PS4-Lite.
Maintenance
Member
When I posted I haven't read the whole topic, but this one I needed to comment. I agree with the bolded.
It sounds like you're holding a grudge at the PS3 being $599.
blankempathy
Member
Bravo i must say you've managed to completely ignore any of the discussion about microsoft and simply keep trying to turn this discussion into it being about the consumer. You should get a job at a big company as a pr rep. You simply want to blame the consumer for making a choice based on the information they had at the time. Which was that there was no kinectless sku on the horizon. Which is the underlying issue im discussing but you simply keep skirting that issue or simply shrug it off as "fanboy talk" As gamer and a consumer I expect certain things when buying a console especially at launch. I don't expect there to be a cheaper revision of a console for a couple of years. I don't expect them to drop the price 100 dollars not even a year into the consoles life span. Buying a console at launch is a risk but we as gamers have come to expect certain things from these companies as well. Its the same reason Nintendo caught so much crap for price dropping the 3ds which they later released an ambassador program for to apologize to early adopters. Things like that are not common on the console/handheld market place in terms of consistency.
Oh I remember that , where the article itself said the fiancée was supportive at first (helped pick out the colors) and then as he go obsessed, she pulled away. While the thread was trying to make her seem like a monster fiancée forcing him to abandon his hobby.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Lying to consumer's faces is the order of the day in the vidya games industry these days
See, I find this attitude completely and utterly ridiculous.
They could have initially made it so you had to pay £5 every time you switched the console on then reversed on this. I wouldn't care because the product I'm buying doesn't have this issue.
This whole idea that corporations do things out of the goodness of their hearts and that MS somehow "betrayed" us by proposing these policies is frankly bizarre.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
People who didn't want Kinect but bought an Xbone anyway fall into two categories:
1) People who saw no value in Kinect but bought the console because the games and hardware made it worth buying. Microsoft didn't screw these guys.
2) People who saw no value in Kinect and thought the console wasn't worth $499 but they bought it anyway. These people are called schmucks and screwed themselves.
It has everything to do with it the fact that people aren't forced to buy it if they don't see the item as being good value. If your utility bills go up then you're kinda screwed because - short of selling your house and going to live totally off the grid in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere - you have no option but to pay the higher prices.
A games console is totally different, that's why it's relevant.
Are you being honest about your biases? It's not like I was a Sony gamer before this gen. I had a PS3 for blu-ray only and was an Xbox gamer after the Dreamcast failed and 360 gamer this past gen. But that comment, that attitude beyond just his isolated comment, the fact that only when preorders failed, they decided against their anti-military policies, they were dead to me after doing 20 years in the Navy and enjoying Xboxes for most of my deployments.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Just answer this one question:
Who looks at a games console, says "I don't want half of these features and peripherals and this is terrible value for money" then pulls out their wallet and hands over five hundred bucks for it?
The Division the Xbox is in has Surface and Windows Phone in it. That division is profitable. You think Surface and Windows Phone are making money?
What about the people who were lied to by Microsoft saying Kinect was an integral part of the Xbox One and would never be removed?
My personal observation, no need for ad hominem remarks.
Off the top of my head:
Scalebound, Halo 5, Phantom Dust, Crackdown we're just CGI trailers, and those were the majority of the big exclusive announcements they had.
Guardian Monkey
Member
Of course it does, if Nintendo or Sony could have pushed the same agenda as the xbone and been successful, do you think they would not? They all want more control of the content and more money. People seemed to have forgotten the 599 ps3 that sony thought all would flock too.
The sub comment was the nail in teh coffin after already hearing about the underwhelming hardware, online policies and media bog down.
mightynine
Member
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
How about you go ask everybody on GAF that has an Xbone with Kinect and see if they feel betrayed before you guys start feeling concerned on their behalf?
Or do Xbox voice commands not work now?
Guardian Monkey
Member
Not really I bought a launch 60 gig and used it the whole generation. I'm just saying all of this ms hate is short term. Hell really what pissed me off last gen was the rrod stupidity.
graywolf323
Member
the division is profitable because of the patents relating to Android that rake in money for Microsoft
He also said...
"Not once did Phil Spencer (Xbox Head) say "oh sorry about lying to the early adopters. sorry about lying to the developers who supported Kinect. never has Microsoft said 'sorry for treating us like fucking idiots over it DRM spin-doctoring'. ultimately, until we get that there's no way I'm inclined to feel 'grateful' for the recent 'favors' Microsoft is doing us."
Agreed! I jumped the Xbox ship after Microsoft decided to treat gamers like pieces of shit (8+ years XBL member, owned every MS console). I won't be back for a while, if ever.
Dragonborn
Member
After all the lies and 180s MS has threw out ever since June, if people still bought into it that's on them I'd say. A bit harsh, but I mean come on. At this point, trusting anything they say is just asking to be disappointed. MS has a long, hard road ahead of them before ever recovering any of the goodwill they gathered with the 360. It took years before people got over what Sony pulled with the PS3 and that was much less than what MS tried.
Wrong. Those patents are not in the division.
Suzushiiro
Banned
This is the most important thing about the video.
blankempathy
Member
Personally, me. As a pc gamer I buy my consoles for the exclusive games. I could care less about the wii u's facetime/youutube apps or the ps4's playroom/x1 kinect. At the same time I have other consoles/my pc for my gaming habit. Some other people don't have that luxury and may have wanted to jump ship early because lets face it, last gen overstayed its welcome. As gamer and a consumer I expect certain things when buying a console especially at launch. I don't expect there to be a cheaper revision of a console for a couple of years. I don't expect them to drop the price 100 dollars not even a year into the consoles life span. Buying a console at launch is a risk but we as gamers have come to expect certain things from these companies as well. Its the same reason Nintendo caught so much crap for price dropping the 3ds which they later released an ambassador program for to apologize to early adopters. Things like that are not common on the console/handheld market place in terms of consistency. So yes the x1 dropping kinect stands out as a blunder and a slap in the face to early adopters because crap like that rarely happens. Although I might wait for a console to price drop depending on the game catalog available.