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[Carcetti]

Um, please tell me you are not trying to justify launching rockets at civilians because of Israeli settlement buildings?

Nice try. I'll make an easier list just for you.

1. People are asking why Palestinians are not complying with the peace process or choosing a passive, non-violent resistance.
2. Palestinians are living as second-class citizens inside a state which denies them basic human rights. Their living areas are also slowly being eroded by Israeli settlements (ruled illegal by all the international courts) which Israel keeps propping up despite, for example, UN saying that this is against the agreed to steps of peace process.
3. Palestinians choose a form of resistance that they have left.

It's not justifying it. It's saying why it's happening. Clear enough?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This doesn't seem like a fair argument to make. The fact that Israel has a stellar missile defense system doesn't wash away the intent behind those rockets to inflict random civilian casualties.

Hamas would love to cause mass casualties with their weapons on the civilian population if they could. Or do you think that's an unfair assumption and those rockets are purposefully meant to miss?

There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around in all of this.

You're still arguing in hypotheticals.

"They would, too, if they could" is not very convincing when Israel is ACTIVELY loving causing mass casualties on the civilian population.

 

[kamorra]

Don't drag TLOU into this.

Anyway this thread has been great for my ignore list.

I'm also contemplating cancelling MGS5.

 

[Buzzman]

Yeah, I wonder why Israel become fearful and oppressive when they elected Hamas officials.

Weird.

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

"The sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews". He said that Gentiles served a divine purpose: "Why are Gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat. That is why Gentiles were created."

- Chief Rabbi Ovadia Yosef

"All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts."

- Rabbi Yisrael Rosen

"B-b-b-but these don't count!!!" incoming

 

[maharg]

that missile defense system's efficacy has been wildly overstated. It probably intercepts no more than 10% of the incoming rockets.
You can talk about Hamas' evil intentions all you want, the reality is that it's the IDF that has the precision weapons and surgical capability and we now have whole neighbourhoods being destroyed, hospitals attacked and kids on beaches blown up.

Well, it also doesn't even try for every one. Even if Hamas wanted to *try* to target military bases they'd still probably be aiming at civilians given how (not) accurate these missiles are. Not to justify it here, but any armed resistance to the occupation, given the relative power levels, will endanger civilians. This is one reason it is generally considered a bad idea to occupy people.

 

[Freezie KO]

Loads of nice people in that article:

Sounds like some islamophobe bullshit. The riots are complete bullshit too. But it'd be nice too, if you steered clear of the bullshit and for example commented on the link in LNBL's post: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/22/gaza-airstrike-deaths-raise-concerns-ground-offensive

Seriously? A bunch of Muslim immigrants burn down a Jewish synagogue while praising Hitler and you're concerned about Islamophobia?

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

This is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous and why, yes, people should be afraid of Islam. It whips people into a frenzy.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Or how about that quote from the lady who is an elected official and active law maker in the Israeli government?

Here we go (from a previous thread):

http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/07/israeli-mp-mothers-of-all-palestinians-must-be-killed/

From Ayelet Shaked:

"Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

 

[dripdripsplash]

- Chief Rabbi Ovadia Yosef




- Rabbi Yisrael Rosen

"B-b-b-but these don't count!!!" incoming

True.

I can also come with loads of preposterous comments from different Jews and post it is as truth. It's not.

 

[King_Moc]

Or how about that quote from the lady who is an elected official and active law maker in the Israeli government?

Doesn't count because reasons.

 

[kamorra]

Seriously? A bunch of Muslim immigrants burn down a Jewish synagogue while praising Hitler and you're concerned about Islamophobia?

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

This is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous and why, yes, people should be afraid of Islam. It whips people into a frenzy.

It seems it whipped you in something too.

 

[MutFox]

Separation of church and state is smart.

 

[Vire]

- Chief Rabbi Ovadia Yosef




- Rabbi Yisrael Rosen

"B-b-b-but these don't count!!!" incoming

Racism goes both ways.

But the comparisons really aren't the same. You are quoting a rabbi, while I was quoting a charter for political/militant organization.

It's not written in the bylaws or charter of Israel to kill every Palestinian. Although with the way things are going now, you would think it was.

 

[vas_a_morir]

It seems it whipped you in something too.

wut

 

[LNBL]

Seriously? A bunch of Muslim immigrants burn down a Jewish synagogue while praising Hitler and you're concerned about Islamophobia?

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

This is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous and why, yes, people should be afraid of Islam. It whips people into a frenzy.

Are you talking about Arab immigrants in general? Just making sure. You seem to judge Islam on the acts of these idiots.

 

[King_Moc]

Seriously? A bunch of Muslim immigrants burn down a Jewish synagogue while praising Hitler and you're concerned about Islamophobia?

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

This is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous and why, yes, people should be afraid of Islam. It whips people into a frenzy.

Fucking wow. Just, wow.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Nice try. I'll make an easier list just for you.

1. People are asking why Palestinians are not complying with the peace process or choosing a passive, non-violent resistance.
2. Palestinians are living as second-class citizens inside a state which denies them basic human rights. Their living areas are also slowly being eroded by Israeli settlements (ruled illegal by all the international courts) which Israel keeps propping up despite, for example, UN saying that this is against the agreed to steps of peace process.
3. Palestinians choose a form of resistance that they have left.

It's just justifying it. It's saying why it's happening. Clear enough?

Clear enough, there is a fine line between "understanding why" and "justification" and it is often hard to understand what people mean by some of their comments. Example, it is understandable that the IDF would target an apartment building suspected of housing fighters and military equipment being used against them. However, that does not justify the extreme use of force and lack of fact checking regarding intelligence when that strike ends up killing a bunch of civilians living in said complex.

 

[kamorra]

wut

wat

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

Goddamn.

This guy just straight up said that it's the Palestinians who can't integrate with their host country, implying that they are equivalent to willing immigrants to Israel.

I wonder if that's the same mentality European settlers applied to the native American populations. Seemed to work pretty well for them in securing Lebensraum.

 

[maharg]

Seriously? A bunch of Muslim immigrants burn down a Jewish synagogue while praising Hitler and you're concerned about Islamophobia?

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

This is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous and why, yes, people should be afraid of Islam. It whips people into a frenzy.

Is it somehow impossible for islamophobia to co-exist in a world where anti-semitism also exists?

 

[dripdripsplash]

Seriously? A bunch of Muslim immigrants burn down a Jewish synagogue while praising Hitler and you're concerned about Islamophobia?

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

This is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous and why, yes, people should be afraid of Islam. It whips people into a frenzy.

Bullshit. Islam doesn't whip people into a frenzy, murder of a people that they feel empathy towards, that, whips people into a frenzy.

You are, in your hate for religion, trying to blame it all on Islam. Islam is the reason that riots are happening. Well that's an outright lie. It's the killing of children, women and elders, innocents, that is making people go out and demonstrate.

And I don't get what's wrong with comraderie through a cultural/religious bond. Would you just have people not care ?

EDIT: Your anti-religion agenda is obfuscating your point and argument-

 

[MutFox]

Those are fundamentalist Jews, they're not the same.
There's extremists in everything, and they're the worst.

Fundamentalists seem like racists.
But they're a religion so it's ok.

 

[Freezie KO]

Are you talking about Arab immigrants in general? Just making sure. You seem to judge Islam on the acts of these idiots.

I'm referring to this in the article: "Hundreds of mostly Arab and North African youths marched through the streets wielding bars and clubs while shouting, “Death to Israel.”"

Those people. Why do you think those immigrants to France are so invested in Palestine?

--

This guy just straight up said that it's the Palestinians who can't integrate with their host country, implying that they are equivalent to willing immigrants to Israel.

That's not what I said at all. I was referring to the Arab and North African immigrants burning down buildings in France.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It's not written in the bylaws or charter of Israel to kill every Palestinian. Although with the way things are going now, you would think it was.

It may not be written in their charter, but it's certainly defined how the nation has behaved since its inception. Israel, even without a charter, has proven to be much better at slaughtering Palestinians than Hamas is as killing Israelis.

 

[LNBL]

I'm referring to this in the article: "Hundreds of mostly Arab and North African youths marched through the streets wielding bars and clubs while shouting, “Death to Israel.”"

Those people. Why do you think those immigrants to France are so invested in Palestine?

Let me think. Maybe the 500+ innocent lives that have been lost in Gaza during this conflict alone? Maybe because the world does not seem to care for those people, yet the world will be stumbling over each other to paint the other side as terrorists or islamic extemists?

How you have connected all of that solely to religion does not make any sense to me.

 

[King_Moc]

Goddamn.

This guy just straight up said that it's the Palestinians who can't integrate with their host country, implying that they are equivalent to willing immigrants to Israel.

I wonder if that's the same mentality European settlers applied to the native American populations. Seemed to work pretty well for them in securing Lebensraum.

Wow, I didn't even notice that. Because that's absolutely Palestines fault, right? Why can;t they just accept that Israel is going to steal their land and kill them all? Stupid Palestinians, getting in the way of peace!

And don't go one about bloody rockets, they are retaliation for the above. We don't need your state sponsored, Washington approved excuses.

 

[Carcetti]

Clear enough, there is a fine line between "understanding why" and "justification" and it is often hard to understand what people mean by some of their comments. Example, it is understandable that the IDF would target an apartment building suspected of housing fighters and military equipment being used against them. However, that does not justify the extreme use of force and lack of fact checking regarding intelligence when that strike ends up killing a bunch of civilians living in said complex.

The scary part of this conflict is that if I try to think what I would do if I were actually on either side, I'd probably choose the violent option both times. The idea of rockets raining into my kids' daycare is horrifying but so is the idea of living under the occupation.

That's why Israel's current stance is so depressing too. When I was younger I always got the impression (thanks to school and news) that it was a sort of a beacon of civilization in a barbaric neighborhood, and the peace seemed to be coming 'soon'. Now it just seems that bloodthirsty fundamentalism and fanaticism is running the government and infecting everyone it touches. The pictures of people cheering on the bombings are heartbreaking because that's another generation who just want to kill their neighbors.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I'm referring to this in the article: "Hundreds of mostly Arab and North African youths marched through the streets wielding bars and clubs while shouting, “Death to Israel.”"

Those people. Why do you think those immigrants to France are so invested in Palestine?

--



That's not what I said at all. I was referring to the Arab and North African immigrants burning down buildings in France.

A cultural/religious bond ? Simple empathy towards a people getting slaughtered ?

I reccommend you strongly to read a history book about the early 50's- late 60's of the Middle East. There was this thing called pan-arabism...

The religious bond can be explained with the aspect of the Muslims as brothers an sisters across the world.

There is different reasons for why people go out in protest for Gaza. In outrage over innocents killed for example could be a reason. But saying anti-semitism, frenzys, riots = result of Islam, that's frankly a bullshit thing to say.

As I said before your anti-religion ideology is kinda obfuscating your argument.

 

[Roronoa95]

Jewish Owned Stores Burned to the Ground, Synagogue Firebombed in ‘Paris Intifada’



Video

Now let's see how is it going in the other side:

Shocking scenes as 150 Jewish men go on rampage in Paris streets and clash with pro-Palestinian demonstrators

Video

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I
That's not what I said at all. I was referring to the Arab and North African immigrants burning down buildings in France.

No. You don't get to just back away from that.

Here are your words:

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

So what connects them?

 

[maharg]

Racism goes both ways.

But the comparisons really aren't the same. You are quoting a rabbi, while I was quoting a charter for political/militant organization.

It's not written in the bylaws or charter of Israel to kill every Palestinian. Although with the way things are going now, you would think it was.

At least two of the parties in the current governing coalition of Israel are (or have been in the not so distant past) completely against Palestinian statehood (Likud and Jewish Home). Jewish Home basically considers all of the former Mandate of Palestine Jewish land that they should completely control, and also would never accept a one-state solution that left the majority of Israel's population Arab (which means they must be for either forced expulsion or a true apartheid state).

To say that there's no one in the Israeli government who seeks the destruction of Palestine, or at least a continuation of the brutal status quo so long as it's Palestinians suffering and not Israelis, is naive at best.

 

[Vire]

Now let's see how is it going in the other side:

Shocking scenes as gang of Jewish vigilantes goes on rampage in Paris to attack pro-Palestinian demonstrators

Video

Did you miss the part where it said:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators were said to have tried to break into two Paris synagogues on Sunday which resulted in six arrests and two Jewish men being injured

Yeah, I wonder why they were mad.

 

[MutFox]

Ok, going by this thread.

Everyone is in agreement that what the IDF has done in past few weeks is wrong right?
Also that HAMAS shouldn't be firing rockets.

What's a viable step for the freedom of Palestinians?
They can't be kept under martial law forever right?

 

[NullPointer]

You're still arguing in hypotheticals.

"They would, too, if they could" is not very convincing when Israel is ACTIVELY loving causing mass casualties on the civilian population.

Its not a hypothetical once those rockets are fired into civilian populations indiscriminately.

But saying that doesn't change the reality that Israel is far more effective at killing civilians than Hamas has ever been. They're both terrorist organizations in my book, though not entirely and not equally.

 

[Freezie KO]

A cultural/religious bond ?

I reccommend you strongly to read a history book about the early 50's- late 60's of the Middle East. There was this thing called pan-arabism...

The religious bond can be explained with the aspect of the Muslims as brothers in one Ummah.

There is different reasons for why people go out in protest for Gaza. In outrage over innocents killed for example could be a reason. But saying anti-semitism, frenzys, riots = Islam, that's frankly a bullshit thing to say.

As I said before your anti-religion ideology is kinda obfuscating your argument.

Right. A religious bond. Empathy is all well and good, but when you suddenly see yourself on a righteous mission to avenge wrongdoings to people who share your religion, that's dangerous.

That is what we're seeing here. There are millions of conflicts going on around the world. There's a reason this is the one is what caused the Arab and North African immigrants to burn down synagogues.

And it's not just Muslims of course. The crazy Haredi and ultra Orthodox are often just as bad. But I dislike the phrase "Islamophobia" as it preempts criticism of the religion in an attempt to protect the people. Ideas should be open to criticism.

 

[Partial Gamification]

I'm referring to this in the article: "Hundreds of mostly Arab and North African youths marched through the streets wielding bars and clubs while shouting, “Death to Israel.”"

Those people. Why do you think those immigrants to France are so invested in Palestine?

--



That's not what I said at all. I was referring to the Arab and North African immigrants burning down buildings in France.

If you look at the Algerian War and the atrocities committed, decapitated heads with the castrated penises of the deceased stuffed in the mouths of the heads, piled up. Heads on poles... There is the sense that the struggles of the Palestinians reflect the struggles of the past. There is a pain that isn't properly articulated and gets funneled into rage, not having an outlet for daily treatments as second-class citizens.

 

[Jonm1010]

Did you miss the part where it said:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators were said to have tried to break into two Paris synagogues on Sunday which resulted in six arrests and two Jewish men being injured

Yeah, I wonder why they were mad.

If we use this sort of logic then every vigilante group is justified as long as someone in their group has been wronged. Be careful the angle you take to defend the side you sympathize with Vire.

 

[Freezie KO]

No. You don't get to just back away from that.

Here are your words:

So what connects them?

Their religion is what I meant. I was referring to the part that you didn't bold, that the immigrants cling to their religion and thus use that as a means to show camaraderie with some other group in another country/territory. I apologize if that was poorly worded.

 

[Dai101]

Did you miss the part where it said:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators were said to have tried to break into two Paris synagogues on Sunday which resulted in six arrests and two Jewish men being injured

Yeah, I wonder why they were mad.

Of course.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Did you miss the part where it said:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators were said to have tried to break into two Paris synagogues on Sunday which resulted in six arrests and two Jewish men being injured

Yeah, I wonder why they were mad.

Just wow... These mental gymnastics.

So it's OK for Jewish folks to get mad and lash out, but not Arabs?

 

[dripdripsplash]

Right. A religious bond. Empathy is all well and good, but when you suddenly see yourself on a righteous mission to avenge wrongdoings to people who share your religion, that's dangerous.

That is what we're seeing here. There are millions of conflicts going on around the world. There's a reason this is the one is what caused the Arab and North African immigrants to burn down synagogues.

And it's not just Muslims of course. The crazy Haredi and ultra Orthodox are often just as bad. But I dislike the phrase "Islamophobia" as it preempts criticism of the religion in an attempt to protect the people. Ideas should be open to criticism.

No, don't try to phrame the word Islamophobia as some PC thing that tries to negate honest critical debate about the religion. Because mostly it's used for people who do the exact opposite of that.

Well in your anti-religion ideology you also seemed to gloss over and avoid mentioning the two other possible reasons I outlined for demonstrations.

1) Empathy towards the people

2)Cultural bond (pan-arabism and the like)

I don't see the problem with religious/cultural bonds, would you rather have people not care ? Or are you just bringing this whole debate up because of your dislike of religion ?

And have you read the news these couple of weeks ? There have been protests ALL over the world for gods sake. Or are those secret muslims too ?

EDIT:

Did you miss the part where it said:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators were said to have tried to break into two Paris synagogues on Sunday which resulted in six arrests and two Jewish men being injured

Yeah, I wonder why they were mad.

And your attempts, throughout this thread, to act like the innocent and dumbfounded Israeli citizen who don't know what to do about it all, and is just being bullied by the other posters for no reason, is failing hard Vire.

Is it okay for Jewish vigilantes to wreck the streets then ?

 

[Messofanego]

Absolutely.

Their translations aren't trustworthy in the slightest.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

Oh maaaaaan.

 

[Vire]

Just wow... These mental gymnastics.

So it's OK for Jewish folks to get mad and lash out, but not Arabs?

Where did I say that? All I said was that you shouldn't come into someone's house of worship, cause a riot and injure people.

They are allowed to protest peacefully all they want.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Where did I say that? All I said was that you shouldn't come into someone's house of worship, cause a riot and injure people.

They are allowed to protest peacefully all they want.

Oh, come the hell on.

"Yeah, I wonder why they were mad." is obviously an attempt to excuse them/justify their reaction.

I gotta get out of this thread. You Israeli defender diehards... the way your brains seem to work is just infuriating.

 

[kobashi100]

Seriously? A bunch of Muslim immigrants burn down a Jewish synagogue while praising Hitler and you're concerned about Islamophobia?

What do you think connects these Arab and North African communities to Palestine? They can't properly integrate into their host countries, so they cling to their religion and some sense of camaraderie with a people a world away.

This is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous and why, yes, people should be afraid of Islam. It whips people into a frenzy.

You do realise there was protests all over the world on the weekend right?

Why do you think the non Muslims in Mexico, America, Canada, Chile, london etc etc Protested?

Why did the orthodox Jews protest against Israel on the weekend?

Oh and just so you know. Muslims see other Muslims as brothers.

For some reason, some non Muslims just can't get to grip or accept that a muslim in France connects with his brother in Palestine.

 

[nib95]

This doesn't seem like a fair argument to make. The fact that Israel has a stellar missile defense system doesn't wash away the intent behind those rockets to inflict random civilian casualties.

Hamas would love to cause mass casualties with their weapons on the civilian population if they could. Or do you think that's an unfair assumption and those rockets are purposefully meant to miss?

There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around in all of this.

I think it would be somewhat naive and disingenuous to suggest Hamas doesn't want to harm Israel when it fires rockets in to the country. No doubt they do.

But the issue I have with much of the debate and reporting, is that the wider context is never given. The conversation always centres around who fired first, which to me is mind numbingly frustrating and inept.

The other questions could be, why is Israel demolishing Palestinian homes on a weekly basis and in doing so displacing countless Palestinians on a monthly basis? Why are they stepping up the expansion of their illegal settlements and even incentivising settlers living in them? Why are they continuing to not only commit war crimes, and break international laws, but also ignore basic human rights, UN laws and geneva conventions? Why is this brutal occupation still in tact after over half a century, and with it more Palestinian loss of land than ever before?

 

[MutFox]

Where did I say that? All I said was that you shouldn't come into someone's house of worship, cause a riot and injure people.

They are allowed to protest peacefully all they want.

Yeah about that...

 

[nib95]

Yeah about that...

Lol….

 

[kamorra]

Yeah about that...

Yeah, I don't think he he gets the reference.

 

[Freezie KO]

No, don't try to phrame the word Islamophobia as some PC thing that tries to negate honest critical debate about the religion. Because mostly it's used for people who do the exact opposite of that.

Well in your anti-religion ideology you also seemed to gloss over and avoid mentioning the two other possible reasons I outlined for demonstrations.

1) Empathy towards the people

2)Cultural bond (pan-arabism and the like)

I don't see the problem with religious/cultural bonds, would you rather have people not care ? Or are you just bringing this whole debate up because of your dislike of religion ?

I addressed general empathy by pointing out that there are conflicts going on all the time, but these gangs only focused on the Palestinian one. If it was a question of general empathy, why not burn down Egyptian stores or buildings owned by Syrians? So it's not merely empathy, it's specifically related to this conflict.

Now there could be some notion of pan-Arabism, which of course is hilarious due to the fact that the Arabs themselves were imperialists into the areas of North Africa that the immigrants likely came from.

You may not, but I do see a problem with otherwise arbitrary religious bonds. The religion leads people into frenzied "righteous" vengeance over problems that happen worlds away.

 

[Roronoa95]

Did you miss the part where it said:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators were said to have tried to break into two Paris synagogues on Sunday which resulted in six arrests and two Jewish men being injured

Yeah, I wonder why they were mad.

I think you're missing the most important part :

In an interview broadcast Friday on the 24-hour news channel i-Télé, Serge Benhaïm said that there was “not a single projectile thrown at the synagogue” and that “at no moment, were we ever physically in danger.”