Jimquisition (July 21) - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Which part exactly was make-believe in this editorial?
That's what Phil hopes everyone does. But the system wasn't developed and designed in a vacuum and people like Yusef especially were key figures that still exist.
SolidChamp
Banned
Everything said in that Jimquisition, coupled with the RRoD debacle, are the reasons why I feel like I'm never going to support the Xbox brand ever again.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
It's more of an editorial, an opinion piece. Even respected newspapers have them, you know.
gioGAF
Member
Lol, more like when one of the few good journalists in this industry states the obvious, some random guy with a differing opinion (who, by the way does nothing to support it unlike the so-called guy who is a joke) resorts to name calling.
Do you think the things he said are incorrect?
Syphon Filter
Member
That guy went in with no mercy.
As I said pages ago, has Jim provided any evidence for his claims? Haven't seen any myself.
Also a poster above on this page seems to have a link from the same site Stirling works from in which Microsoft admit some things were very wrong with the XB1 vision which seems to go against a number of claims made in this thread. The power structure has totally changed at MS, new CEO, new head of Xbox and there's been wholesale changes for the better alongside. Things are quite different now.
That's one thing about Microsoft. Each department head totally makes every decision for that department and all others who work under that DH have no input.
You're missing the point.
While yes, it's good they actually 180'd it's the way before the 180's they were treating the consumers that were already unhappy with the system. Consumer trust is a really important and real thing. When your PR is constantly dodging what consumers want to know about your system or outright sending deceitful messages why should those same consumers want to buy the product after the 180's? It's not that simple, you don't just reverse everything and expect everyone to be happy with the system all of the sudden. Consumer trust takes time to build but it doesn't take much to burn it and that's exactly what happened with MS -- it's going to take a lot more to rebuild that trust MS worked hard to build with the 360.
And then on top of that you have the act of doing the 180 itself. The 180 of the policies is good, don't get me wrong. It's the mere action of it that makes consumers wary of buying the product. While it's unlikely for the system to revert back to the policies we saw last year (or even some of those features), a consumer isn't likely to subscribe to the belief that MS won't do that because... as the past showed them MS didn't think much of the consumers in the first place -- all they wanted was the money and control.
Bottom line: consumer trust in MS was broken for many people who had owned a 360 last gen and it's going to take a lot more than 180'ing policies that were clearly shit to begin with to get that consumer trust back.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
That's not journalism, that's an opinion piece. Granted, I agree with most of his videos.
I don't think there is any fanboy crap in the video. I think he just wants to take Microsoft to task about trying to spin everything they have done into something praise worthy even though MS reps still talk about how their ideas were good.
That was pretty much what I felt about the editorial.
The DRM/TV stuff wasn't what I wanted out of the system but with that reversed along with a pretty solid lineup of games for the year I'd rather just look forward. Constantly looking back at that stuff and using that as ammunition to dissuade myself or others from what's turned out to be a pretty good and competitive console is an unhealthy state of mind to have.
graywolf323
Member
Spencer himself was a key figure yet people act like he was somehow an innocent bystander
Haha concern trolling. That's a new one for me.
What I'm saying is; everything that set the one apart has been removed or is not working properly. I've read loads of posts/threads about one users complaining that certain OS features do not operate as implied last year.
Those features are what held back the one in the resolution war. So the trade off was cool features over gaming power/whatever. Now the features are gone/don't work.
Puppet Shadow
Member
Not a week, a month. May 22 - June 19.
Long enough to gauge pre-orders. If pre-orders were high enough they would have ignored the outcry, you're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.
There's nothing wrong with what Jim said.
People harping on him wanting an apology are missing the point. He's not wanting an apology for MS thinking their vision was correct.
He wants an apology for MS insulting our intelligence by insisting that the DRM/always on Kinect/etc were integral parts that couldn't be changed.
That was called on as complete bullshit from day one and, lo and behold, it was complete bullshit.
People harping on him wanting an apology are missing the point. He's not wanting an apology for MS thinking their vision was correct.
He wants an apology for MS insulting our intelligence by insisting that the DRM/always on Kinect/etc were integral parts that couldn't be changed.
That was called on as complete bullshit from day one and, lo and behold, it was complete bullshit.
BuggeryBugz
Member
It's not a defense at all. I like the Xbox One, so I bought it.
Just because it is selling better and that more people like the PS4 instead of the Xbox One, you can't just generalise and say that yes, the PS4 is the superior machine. It's always subjective and there are always people with different opinions. Like I said, I like the PS4 and what Sony is doing with it, but if it doesn't have some of the games that I love playing, then whats the point.
With your reasoning, It would be like saying that if Apple was selling the most smartphones compared to HTC, Sony etc. Then they have the superior smartphone.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
...and it's all been fixed. What more do you want, a tearful hummer from Phil Spencer? They fucked up, realized it, moved people around and fixed the problems. Now that they're doing EXACTLY what people wanted this time last year, said people demand a Lance Armstrong-Oprah confession.
People just want to hear themselves bitch.
This is why this editorial just fell flat for me, I don't need this stuff drudged up every time for the sake of an apology since I'd rather just see what OS improvements the One will continue to have as well as games Microsoft have coming up which is what I assume most gamers would rather see more of.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
It's sad that people are praising MS for things they should have been doing from the get go. It's not praiseworthy that they finally moved free apps or services from behind their paywall, for example. What MS needs to do is something they are in a better position to do than either Sony or Nintendo. They have the financial clout to really invest in games development and fund a diverse and epic selection of first-party software.
But criminally there's hardly any movement on that front - they churn out the same safe collection of shooters, Forza, Gears and Halo and then chuck money at a few third-party mainstream titles to go on top. That's clearly not a vision for the future that a lot of people like and something that a lot of one-time supporters are just realising they don't like either. If people cut Sony more slack its because we know what they can and will bring to the table in terms of content and software. They did it before during the PS2 era when they were swimming in money. And it looks like they are doing it again at the end of last gen and the start of this current gen.
But it's not just about games. Where are the other services or investments that show that MS is invested in the gaming industry for the long term? Where is their answer to PS Now? What is their equivalent to Project Morpheus? Where is the evidence to show they are not just in this industry to successfully infiltrate a trojan horse into everybody's living room that allows them to create their own version of Apple's walled garden eco-system as the ultimate aim?
It goes without saying that ultimately I'm not interested in a future where I'm locked into purchasing all my media from the MS store, browsing using Bing and using my Windows OS as my living room hub. I just want some original, compelling gaming experiences on my console.
BuggeryBugz
Member
When you talk about Specs, certainly not. But when you are talking about preference of a particular console over another, then it has to be subjective. Not everybody is looking to have the more powerful console, just because.
BruiserBear
Banned
As always, threads like this are full of so many competing interests. You've got the people who just love to see the "opposing console" punched in the face. You've got the people who like the Xbox defending it. You've got the people who just want everyone to move on from the past.
Sterling specializes in pushing people's buttons, and it seems to work well for him.
Sterling specializes in pushing people's buttons, and it seems to work well for him.
Night Angel
Member
I agree with much of what he said in the video. No, that doesn't mean the Xbone is a piece of garbage or that you can't enjoy it. I know I'll enjoy mine when the MCC and SO come out. That doesn't suddenly make Jim wrong.
Slightly off topic: has anyone noticed how suddenly OS updates have become something to brag about? Seems like a strange thing to celebrate in a games console.
Slightly off topic: has anyone noticed how suddenly OS updates have become something to brag about? Seems like a strange thing to celebrate in a games console.
Droopaloop
Banned
Meh, I don't think that there's anything untrue about what Jim said.
Even if Microsoft did issue some sort of corporate apology it wouldn't change much. When a company's first priority is going after the contents of your wallet I don't think an apology would hold much merit. Not sure placing trust in a corporation that has making money as their #1 priority is a great idea.
That being said, I'm content with my Xbone and am glad they decided to do all the 180's.
Even if Microsoft did issue some sort of corporate apology it wouldn't change much. When a company's first priority is going after the contents of your wallet I don't think an apology would hold much merit. Not sure placing trust in a corporation that has making money as their #1 priority is a great idea.
That being said, I'm content with my Xbone and am glad they decided to do all the 180's.
sciencerob
Member
I'm glad to hear some feedback in this thread and the video from Jim. I've held this opinion from the start. I have owned every console just about (Atari, NES, SNES, PS1, N64, XB, Gamecube, Wii, PS2, PS3, XBox360, PS4, WiiU ; not much of a handheld person). For the first time I just can't bring myself to get a console. I paid attention to the news releases and the E3 before console release. The fact is that I can't get over being lied to (yes we were lied to).
I mean, it was shit that they wanted to pull. Then after outrage the consumers were blamed for not accepting the vision. I'm sure they also believe that they "innovated too much". The bottom line is that after the dust settled I felt that I would not want a console who really tried to fuck over the consumers. I just can't reverse my ill-will towards the XB1. I think though, an apology would be (to use a math-ese term) necessary and sufficient for me to consider purchasing an XB1. I can get over the fact that they tried to force horrible practices on the consumer (which yes yes, I know they changed most of the crap before release). I could even accept the fact that they lied to the consumers. The fact that they are unable to take responsibility for their actions and apologize is unacceptable to me.
I know to some it seems silly, wanting an apology out of a company. I'm glad Jim made the video. It was spot on to how I feel.
I mean, it was shit that they wanted to pull. Then after outrage the consumers were blamed for not accepting the vision. I'm sure they also believe that they "innovated too much". The bottom line is that after the dust settled I felt that I would not want a console who really tried to fuck over the consumers. I just can't reverse my ill-will towards the XB1. I think though, an apology would be (to use a math-ese term) necessary and sufficient for me to consider purchasing an XB1. I can get over the fact that they tried to force horrible practices on the consumer (which yes yes, I know they changed most of the crap before release). I could even accept the fact that they lied to the consumers. The fact that they are unable to take responsibility for their actions and apologize is unacceptable to me.
I know to some it seems silly, wanting an apology out of a company. I'm glad Jim made the video. It was spot on to how I feel.
BruiserBear
Banned
Console OS discussion have been a pretty regular things since about 2005, when the 360 launched. Since then there has been plenty of discussion about how console OS's make a difference in the user experience.
That is pretty much every company's first priority.
A lot of the stuff you mention right here are currently peripheral aspects of the console that you don't have to use if you don't want to. A lot of people including myself like having consoles that can do more than just game which increases the appeal of the system but it still plays games and offer exclusives like Sony's console.
Also saying that Microsoft is being praised for freeing paywall apps and changing the "free games" aspect of XBL Gold is a bit much, it's a positive step of acknowledgement that they had to catch up to Sony's competitive edge which I think they're getting closer to as current gen continues on those particular fronts.
Its too early to say whether PS Now or Morpheus will ultimately be successful ventures. I get that Sony's trying to bring new types of hardware and services to the brand but it's also very risky and could backfire on them. Personally I don't find those two experiments as something I'm interested in as far as pushing games nor do I think them to be models MS should chase after.
I'm giving Microsoft the benefit of the doubt this gen because the original Xbox had a pretty good library of exclusives, contributed to pushing LIVE to where it is today, and had forward thinking game tech by including a spacious internal HD. With the company having to be less reliant on 3rd party games I think they'll try harder to bring it back to where the OG Xbox was to compete. Additionally with the latest news with the TV portion of their division being shut down their focus on games should be getting a nice shot on the arm on top of all the good exclusives they have coming up for this year.
soul creator
Member
I guess it's funny to me because the people that did want those features last year (the digital sharing features, physical discs as digital games, more Kinect support, etc.) and were ok with the drawbacks ($499 with Kinect, 24hr check-ins) were often seen as fanboys/shills/killing the industry/etc., but now all of a sudden people are worried about them being "lied" to, lol.
Of course, I could be wrong, but I haven't noticed any actual Xbox One owners being super worried about it. They might be disappointed, sure, but they obviously still felt the system was worth owning, since they bought the system.
And of course, it's not like the features were taken away from people after exchanging money, so there's even less reason for Xbox One owners to be "angered" by it, since they still had enough information to know what they were getting into.
The only kinda sorta thing that was changed after purchase was Kinect no longer being bundled. But that affects developers primarily, not consumers (since my Kinect still works fine, and does what it was advertised to do). The only thing people hinged their hopes on was that bundling would automatically mean tons of developer support...but if no one's buying the system because of the bundled Kinect, then it wouldn't have gotten that support anyway.
As someone that did prefer a lot of the original features, yet still owns an Xbox One, I'm "disappointed", but I hardly feel the need to be apologized to or whatever. I made the decision to still buy what was offered, I knew what I was getting into.
I guess I'm kind of with Gestault on this: I think a lot of this maybe stems from the pre-release hype driven nature of a lot of products in this industry. For me, I just saw it as MS being overly confident in their product and hyping it up (which is a standard approach for plenty of products and didn't seem unique to MS). I could see a lot of the "bullshit" as well, even though I wasn't personally bothered by it, since shit was in flux and in development. All marketing is kinda pointless and "insulting to my intelligence" when there isn't actually a product available to evaluate.
CosmicQueso
Member
Ahhhh, innocence. Such a lovely, short-lived thing.
Neuromancer
Member
lol
I don't want a tearful hummer from anyone. It sounds traumatic for all parties involved.
Tried playing the flagship title, Titanfall, today. So disappointed with the screen tearing and frame rate. I should have stuck with PC and bought a Wii U. As of now I have a PS4 which I mostly use as a Netflix player (I have been playing Destiny recently), and an X1 which never gets played.
IMO the new consoles are not buys until there are more top notch exclusives, and not retreads of last gen IP. Hopefully Sunset Overdrive and Bloodborne get us going in that direction.
IMO the new consoles are not buys until there are more top notch exclusives, and not retreads of last gen IP. Hopefully Sunset Overdrive and Bloodborne get us going in that direction.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I respect your opinion but at the end there you say you are not interested in Sony's PS Now or their endeavours with Project Morpheus then go on to say you are giving MS the benefit of the doubt essentially because they brought paid online gaming to the industry, a handful of exclusives and spacious internal HD's to consoles.
Come on man. You can and should expect more than that from a company as rich as MS. But I think their obstinate and corporate nature that is a result from being super-rich for decades long is also part of the problem.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
...all the good exclusives?
If the VR takes off, you can be sure Microsoft will try to follow suit. They don't innovate themselves, they wait and see what their competition does successfully and then attempt to copy it. Just like they did with Wii motion controls / Kinect and Apple phones / tablets.
crappybannedjunior999999
Banned
Just curious. Why do people call him that all the time?
Beerman462
Member
Can't watch on mobile, cause pay walls....
Don was just a face to put to the lie. But he wasn't the one who thought it up. He was a salesman, and apparently a poor one. The market saw through the fices and reacted accordingly. But I'm a die-heard Gears of War fan, so depending on what Black Tusk shows, Microsoft might get a purchase from me sometime in the future.
Ps3 vs. Xbox 360 was "subjective" as hell, otherwise we wouldn't have had thousands of those stupid teraflop vs. gigahertz vs. cores graphs last generation.
Ask an average Playstation console warrior circa-2007, and they'll probably designate the Ps3 a supercomputer despite the fact that I don't remember any multiplatform titles looking better than their 360 counterparts. There may have been, I just don't recall any.
Seriously!? You do know that the same generation where Sony sold over 150million PS2's right? Microsoft doesn't have the 1st party portfolio like Sony or Nintendo. They rather spend million on securing exclusive, timed DLC than acquiring small studios. They literally made RARE, into a kinect studio. They don't have that many IPs either. I support your claim about what LIVE did in carving the video game, landscape we know today.
LMAO!!!!! This!!!!! While in the same breath pointing the finger @ Microsoft (not that it was unjust). Oh the hypocrisy.
+5 on the comment right there.
They don't pay don to be a face, he was the key figure on bringing the kinect into the market and was credited largely for its sucess , he was the key figure in the nfl deal and starting an entertainment studio. His idea for the 360 was to make it an entertainment hub, his leadership followed into the development of the xb1.
I mentioned those OG Xbox features because those were historically meaningful contributions to console gaming and was at a time where MS was competitive. Can PS Now or Morpheus bring in as much to gaming? They're potentially great tech ideas but time will really tell whether they're worth pursuing on Microsoft's end but at the moment there's nothing on either consoles currently that can really be heralded as the next best thing.
That was a pretty lame gif attempt but for me Sunset Overdrive, Master Chief Collection, KI Season 2, and Horizon 2 are good exclusives....all the good exclusives?
Yes because following trends is obviously a Microsoft exclusive thing.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
It's not all specs though.
It's about hardware design philosophy.
The XB1 was built as a part games console part media box from the start. The PS4 was not.
So when you strip out the Kinect media functionality and drop the TV integration focus, you're left with what feels like a half-baked gaming machine. At least in comparison to the PS4.
crappybannedjunior999999
Banned
I lost it.
no epic are not making the new one, black tusk are with the leadership of rod
Fergusson. epic don't even have the directors of the game so it's in better hands now at black tusk than it would be at epic without Rod or Cliff
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Or him and Steve Ballmer. That hideous man.
RyanPierre
Member
I'm having trouble making sense of this. What is the hypocrisy?