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[Vire]

And why can't the make concessions with the PLO?

What's good for the PLO doesn't necessarily appease Hamas. Israel, the US, the Arab League and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, have all backed the cease fire plan.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Let's get this sequence of events right. The IDF killed two Palestian boys for no reason, and Israel suffered no reprisal because of that. Now three Israel boys were captured and killed, but there's no proof that Hamas or anyone in Palestine had anything to do with it. Still, Israel makes a big sweep, imprisoning and torturing Palestinians, including an American boy.

If you go into someone's house and kill their son, you don't get to claim you were only acting in self-defense when you shoot the rest of the family for going after you. Though Israel would bomb their house, their neighbor's home, and pretty much all the public utilities in the area. Do these really sound like defensive realitaion to you?

Israel is going to bomb and kill as much as they can get away with. Then they'll find a reason to stop to make themselves look magnanimous, creating a cease fire or treaty that they will later break to start it all over again. They're going to keep doing this until someone in power calls them out on it, and no one ever will.

wait. this can't be right. Has Israel offered up no proof/court proceeding to who kidnapped the 3 israeli boys? A bunch of my israeli freinds tell me that both the West bank authorities and israeli did the roundup together and delivered the proof hamas was behidn it.

or was this all lost in the bombing?

 

[Deleted member 125677]

The statements about this from idf and the israeli pm makes me want to vomit

 

[sonicmj1]

Yes I read the entire thing, he is asking for Israel to make concessions with Hamas instead of firing back at them.

And I'm showing him why you cannot make concessions with them.

That's not what I'm saying. Or at the very least, it's a gross oversimplification.

I'm largely speaking towards things that should have been done earlier. It's Israel's responsibility to move the peace process forward towards a stable, long-term solution. If that can't start in Gaza (at the very least, as you said, Hamas is always preparing to be able to attack Israel), then it has to start in the West Bank, the territory that chose a different government. Israel had an opportunity to show that the radicals were wrong, to show that they were interested in peace if their partners acted in good faith. The West Bank isn't launching rockets at Israeli civilians. They're not under the same kind of blockade. But those people are also unsatisfied with the status quo, where their homes are regularly being destroyed and their movements are tightly controlled. Since they've basically behaved well, shouldn't they be rewarded?

Israel hasn't done that. They've rewarded the West Bank with nothing but the status quo, broke off relations with their government recently, and lashed out at the territory in the aftermath of the murders. They continue to stoke the flames of conflict, instead of trying to put out the fire and end the cycle. Rising to every slight provocation plays into Hamas's hands, giving them the visceral proof of suffering that fuels their foreign support.

It's hard to make things stop now that rockets are firing. But it shouldn't have reached this stage to begin with, and Israel played a large role in this escalation. Unless they don't believe the Palestinians can be negotiated with at all (in which case things will never improve), they need to act more responsibly.

 

[Vire]

Let's get this sequence of events right. The IDF killed two Palestian boys for no reason, and Israel suffered no reprisal because of that. Now three Israel boys were captured and killed, but there's no proof that Hamas or anyone in Palestine had anything to do with it. Still, Israel makes a big sweep, imprisoning and torturing Palestinians, including an American boy.

If you go into someone's house and kill their son, you don't get to claim you were only acting in self-defense when you shoot the rest of the family for going after you. Though Israel would bomb their house, their neighbor's home, and pretty much all the public utilities in the area. Do these really sound like defensive realitaion to you?

Israel is going to bomb and kill as much as they can get away with. Then they'll find a reason to stop to make themselves look magnanimous, creating a cease fire or treaty that they will later break to start it all over again. They're going to keep doing this until someone in power calls them out on it, and no one ever will.

Those same IDF members were condemned and sentenced to prison. The Israeli government did not condone those killings.

 

[Terra Firma]

wait. this can't be right. Has Israel offered up no proof/court proceeding to who kidnapped the 3 israeli boys? A bunch of my israeli freinds tell me that both the West bank authorities and israeli did the roundup together and delivered the proof hamas was behidn it.

or was this all lost in the bombing?

All the evidence points towards a clan in Hebron that is not controlled by Hamas.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28371966

 

[human onion]

Fuck it, I don't usually post in threads like these, but right now I can't help myself. These IDF bastards are committing genocide, and no one with the power to stop it cares. I go to Times Square every year to join the rally for Turkey's and the US' recognition of the Armenian Genocide. What we are seeing now is what happens when atrocities are not recognized for what they are, what the Armenians have been fighting against for years. Fuck the media and fuck the lobbyist scum.

Edit: I'm not condoning Hamas' actions even if I see the reasoning, but Isreal is the one with the power here, and they are abusing it.

 

[collige]

What's good for the PLO doesn't necessarily appease Hamas. Israel, the US, the Arab League and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, have all backed the cease fire plan.

It might not appease Hamas, but the point is it would appease the Palestinian people who voted Hamas into power in the first fucking place. If Israel makes any indication that nonviolence is a viable option for improving the lives of Palestinians, then it makes it harder for extremist groups to have a popular platform. But they haven't.

 

[Vire]

That's not what I'm saying. Or at the very least, it's a gross oversimplification.

I'm largely speaking towards things that should have been done earlier. It's Israel's responsibility to move the peace process forward towards a stable, long-term solution. If that can't start in Gaza (at the very least, as you said, Hamas is always preparing to be able to attack Israel), then it has to start in the West Bank, the territory that chose a different government. Israel had an opportunity to show that the radicals were wrong, to show that they were interested in peace if their partners acted in good faith. The West Bank isn't launching rockets at Israeli civilians. They're not under the same kind of blockade. But those people are also unsatisfied with the status quo, where their homes are regularly being destroyed and their movements are tightly controlled. Since they've basically behaved well, shouldn't they be rewarded?

Israel hasn't done that. They've rewarded the West Bank with nothing but the status quo, broke off relations with their government recently, and lashed out at the territory in the aftermath of the murders. They continue to stoke the flames of conflict, instead of trying to put out the fire and end the cycle. Rising to every slight provocation plays into Hamas's hands, giving them the visceral proof of suffering that fuels their foreign support.

It's hard to make things stop now that rockets are firing. But it shouldn't have reached this stage to begin with, and Israel played a large role in this escalation. Unless they don't believe the Palestinians can be negotiated with at all (in which case things will never improve), they need to act more responsibly.

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas. These are two separate issues at hand, and fixing one isn't going to solve the other.

 

[Codeblue]

What's good for the PLO doesn't necessarily appease Hamas. Israel, the US, the Arab League and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, have all backed the cease fire plan.

Hamas dislikes that the PLO cooperates with Israel, but they do it anyway. Israel says it wants peace, but it's a one sided peace. They want all of the settlements with none of the resistance. I think it would be easier to stop the violence in Gaza if anyone there could believe that cooperating with Israel would give them a better life, but the West Bank shows that cooperation is only met with excuses.

 

[Chumly]

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas. These are two separate issues at hand, and fixing one isn't going to solve the other.

Are you serious?

 

[Razgreez]

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas.

Really? So you don't see how israel punishing those who abide by its rules is relevant in this conversation. There are so many words in this world to describe your attitude and none of them are very "nice"

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

wait. this can't be right. Has Israel offered up no proof/court proceeding to who kidnapped the 3 israeli boys? A bunch of my israeli freinds tell me that both the West bank authorities and israeli did the roundup together and delivered the proof hamas was behidn it.

or was this all lost in the bombing?

That is correct. Isreal also rounded up and arrested over 300 people without charges. Those 300+ were previously released in the Shalit prisoner swap. Isreal also demolished propery in the sweep, again with no charge or trail beforehand. That is what set Hamas off to end the ceasefire.

 

[Dryk]

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas. These are two separate issues at hand, and fixing one isn't going to solve the other.

Members of Hamas aren't springing fully formed from the ether. If you show the people of Gaza that peace can work in the West Bank they have a better chance of working for it. Showing them that laying down arms gets your home bulldozed anyway isn't helping.

 

[ramuh]

It might not appease Hamas, but the point is it would appease the Palestine people who voted Hamas into power in the first fucking place. If Israel makes any indication that nonviolence is a viable option for improving the lives of Palestinians, then it makes it harder for extremist groups to have a popular platform. But they haven't.

And how would this happen? So would money coming in from Arab Gulf Sunnis get to the people? Through Hamas. A Terrorist Organization.

Israel is messing up right now in one aspect. They could use the West Bank as a role model on how to deal with a decent Palestinian Organization. The settlements are stupid. This whole mess could be cleaned up in like a few steps. But it won't.

 

[MutFox]

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas. These are two separate issues at hand, and fixing one isn't going to solve the other.

It shows that Israel is trying, HAMAS would see that.
Maybe they'll react with more violence, maybe they see that peace is possible

Israel holds the cards.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas. These are two separate issues at hand, and fixing one isn't going to solve the other.

You really can't be this dense on purpose. Really?

 

[MutFox]

You really can't be this dense on purpose. Really?

They said before they were playing devils advocate.
At this point they're trolling.

 

[Vire]

Members of Hamas aren't springing fully formed from the ether. If you show the people of Gaza that peace can work in the West Bank they have a better chance of working for it. Showing them that laying down arms gets your home bulldozed anyway isn't helping.

It shows that Israel is trying, HAMAS would see that.
Maybe they'll react with more violence, maybe they see that peace is possible

Israel holds the cards.

You are right. I take back what I said.

It wouldn't hurt to at least try it, I just don't remain very hopeful that it would do anything to improve relations between Israel and Hamas.

 

[maharg]

So continue to receive thousands of rocket fire that is descending upon your people while you sit there and do nothing about it? What if this was the United States? Where rockets were being sent to every major city?

They tried doing cease fire negotiations through Egypt, the UN and the Red Cross. All three were rejected.

Of course, until Israel started indiscriminately rounding people up in the West Bank and bulldozing homes of alleged criminals, the rocket fire was, afaik, at quite a low level and Iron Dome was doing its job quite well. Considering Gaza basically has no real government or legitimate security, things were going pretty well.

But all that doesn't matter, obviously. The Palestinians are living in a magical fairy utopia and just can't stand it, so they just endlessly fire rockets into Israel with no provocation.

 

[collige]

And how would this happen? So would money coming in from Arab Gulf Sunnis get to the people? Through Hamas. A Terrorist Organization.

Israel is messing up right now in one aspect. They could use the West Bank as a role model on how to deal with a decent Palestinian Organization. The settlements are stupid. This whole mess could be cleaned up in like a few steps. But it won't.

I'm not sure if I understood the first part of your post. My point was that IF the West Bank was a role model, then it would weaken Hamas' position as there would actually be an alternative to recklessly launching rockets at Israel.

 

[ramuh]

You are right. I take back what I said.

It wouldn't hurt to at least try it, I just don't remain very hopeful that it would do anything to improve relations between Israel and Hamas.

I don't. Hamas as an organization needs to burn down, or get so diluted you couldn't tell what organization it was before.

 

[MutFox]

You are right. I take back what I said.

It wouldn't hurt to at least try it, I just don't remain very hopeful that it would do anything to improve relations between Israel and Hamas.

That's all that can be done.
They gotta try, god knows the area needs it.

 

[RustyNails]

You are right. I take back what I said.

It wouldn't hurt to at least try it, I just don't remain very hopeful that it would do anything to improve relations between Israel and Hamas.

Hamas tells its people in Gaza that through armed struggle they were able to remove settlers by forcing Sharon's hand.

PA cannot tell it's supporters that they were able to remove settlements in West Bank through diplomacy. In fact, the settlements continued on their accelerated pace after Oslo I.

 

[Spongebob]

Fuck zionism.

Anyone who supports this shit are filthy "human" beings.

 

[Vire]

I don't. Hamas as an organization needs to burn down, or get so diluted you couldn't tell what organization it was before.

Israel's point of contention is that they cannot reason with a terrorist organization. What people in this thread are proposing, is that Hamas are capable of "seeing the light" as it were.

Which Israel obviously doesn't feel is the case, especially when they are building tunnels to capture and kill Israeli people.

 

[werks]

Israel's point of contention is that they cannot reason with a terrorist organization. What people in this thread are proposing, is that Hamas are capable of "seeing the light" as it were.

Which Israel obviously doesn't feel is the case, especially when they are building tunnels to capture and kill Israeli people.

IDF is committing war crimes as we speak. They have no moral standing to call anyone terrorists right now.

 

[ramuh]

Israel's point of contention is that they cannot reason with a terrorist organization. What people in this thread are proposing, is that Hamas are capable of "seeing the light" as it were.

Which Israel obviously doesn't feel is the case, especially when they are building tunnels to capture and kill Israeli people.

Oh I agree. But Israel is equally culpable in this. It could use the West Bank as a standard-bearer in Israel-Palestinian ties. Do you hear of recent rocket fire from the West Bank? But it won't.

 

[Vire]

IDF is committing war crimes as we speak. They have no moral standing to call anyone terrorists right now.

Good thing it isn't just Israel that classifies Hamas as terrorists then.

 

[Dryk]

You are right. I take back what I said.

It wouldn't hurt to at least try it, I just don't remain very hopeful that it would do anything to improve relations between Israel and Hamas.

Hamas may very well be a lost cause at this point. I think regardless of that though the only way the dynamic is going to improve is getting the Palestinian public on-side and Israel's actions aren't helping.

 

[Codeblue]

Israel's point of contention is that they cannot reason with a terrorist organization. What people in this thread are proposing, is that Hamas are capable of "seeing the light" as it were.

Which Israel obviously doesn't feel is the case, especially when they are building tunnels to capture and kill Israeli people.

It's not about Hamas seeing the light, it's about giving Gazans a viable alternative to Hamas. Right now there's no difference between war and peace to civilians in Palestine. Having your home destroyed and starving to death isn't a reasonable alternative to getting killed in an air strike.

Even failing that, at least the people in the West Bank could live better lives. It's not like everyone needs to suffer.

 

[RustyNails]

I don't. Hamas as an organization needs to burn down, or get so diluted you couldn't tell what organization it was before.

If Hamas burns down, how will Israel like dealing with Islamic Jihad or maybe Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? Or maybe a Somalia? You can bet your shiny penny that IF Hamas is taken out, a terrorist organization that gave peace overtures to Israel and agreed to 67 borders, an organization like ISIS will take it's place.

Good luck dealing with those guys.

 

[Spongebob]

Good thing it isn't just Israel that classifies Hamas as terrorists then.

It's not such a good thing that barely anyone seems to clasify the filthy IDF as the terrorists they are.

 

[sonicmj1]

It's called hypocrisy. Note that vire is the only zionist supporter on shift here at the moment. The others likely have their hands full propagating their lies and illogical claims elswhere

Don't be a dick. Vire is capable of acknowledging what's going on. If you want to assume the worst of the people you're arguing with, we'll never get anywhere.

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas. These are two separate issues at hand, and fixing one isn't going to solve the other.

Everything is connected. Both sides are capable of representing the Palestinian people. They can't both have full control. Which party do you want to be more powerful, both in terms of resources and mindshare?

Israel has the power to influence that. They've chosen not to exercise it by cutting off relations with the PLO after they announced their joint government.

You want to see what should have happened? Look at the quote below and follow along.

That the quandary. The Israeli side is saying that since there "unified" (not really) the PLO is responsible for all of the Terrorist Organization Hamas rocket fire, etc. PLO is actually trying to unify all parties so they can have a legitimate shot at a recognized Country by the UN. It's why they abandoned calling for Israel's destruction in their charter etc. In essence the PLO doesn't really exist in the Gaza Strip although I would like to see that happen.

Hamas only wanted the unity government so the West Bank could pay for it's 45000 or so Government employees and militias since they don't have any money coming in anymore. Always follow the money.

Hamas may have had a bunch of rockets underground, but that's all they had. They were in a weak position in April. That's why they came crawling to the PLO. The PLO has renounced violence, and they've backed that up in the West Bank. They even carry out joint operations with the IDF there against Hamas. The PLO is about as ideal a negotiating partner as Israel is likely to find, and they had all the leverage in a relationship with Hamas. Without the money, they can't govern their territory. The PLO planned to make a unified government with Hamas, one that abides by all the security agreements and pledges that the PLO holds to.

Israel could have supported this unity government, giving the PLO incentive to keep Hamas in check, and allowing the PLO's influence to expand to Gaza. They could have forced Hamas into a position where they had to remain peaceful to stay funded and legitimate. They could have used that unified government as a way to build stable, lasting peace negotiations.

Instead they cut off relations with the PLO, hurting their legitimacy. And then they hurt it further with their response to the killings by arresting hundreds in the West Bank and demolishing homes. That gave Hamas the pretext they needed to claim injury by Israel, launch their rockets, provoke invasion, and get publicity that will bring them a new surge of money and recruitment.

Can you see how the course of action Israel chose was counterproductive for peace?

 

[ramuh]

If Hamas burns down, how will Israel like dealing with Islamic Jihad or maybe Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? Or maybe a Somalia? You can bet your shiny penny that IF Hamas is taken out, a terrorist organization that gave peace overtures to Israel and agreed to 67 borders, an organization like ISIS will take it's place.

Good luck dealing with those guys.

That's why I said it was my personal opinion. Not the Israeli Government opinion. To the Israelis it's a known enemy. They sure as hell don't want someone way nastier to come from the ashes of Hamas (this doesn't excuse Hamas at all). They will beat the shit out of them, Hamas will get Aid money, and we will see this happen in a few years.

 

[collige]

Israel's point of contention is that they cannot reason with a terrorist organization. What people in this thread are proposing, is that Hamas are capable of "seeing the light" as it were.

Which Israel obviously doesn't feel is the case, especially when they are building tunnels to capture and kill Israeli people.

Hamas is not one person. Their power relies on people being willing to join their cause which would be far less likely if there were other visible options for improvement. There aren't any for people living in Gaza while the countless dead civilians in the current conflict just breeds more hate for Israel.

 

[Vire]

If Hamas burns down, how will Israel like dealing with Islamic Jihad or maybe Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? Or maybe a Somalia? You can bet your shiny penny that IF Hamas is taken out, a terrorist organization that gave peace overtures to Israel and agreed to 67 borders, an organization like ISIS will take it's place.

Good luck dealing with those guys.

That's the thing, even if you remove them from the equation they will undoubtably feel the wraith of their supporters.

You aren't eliminating anything essentially. That's why I feel like what Israel is doing right now is futile.

 

[NullPointer]

Those same IDF members were condemned and sentenced to prison. The Israeli government did not condone those killings.

I take it their homes were destroyed as soon as they were accused of the crime? Or were the bulldozers put on hold until a judgment was handed down?

 

[falastini]

wait. this can't be right. Has Israel offered up no proof/court proceeding to who kidnapped the 3 israeli boys? A bunch of my israeli freinds tell me that both the West bank authorities and israeli did the roundup together and delivered the proof hamas was behidn it.

or was this all lost in the bombing?

Not only did they provide no proof (because Hamas had nothing to do with it)... they manipulated the public into believing the boys may have still been alive... in order to legitimize their raids, arrests, and home demolitions, under the guise that they were trying to rescue the boys from Hamas. http://972mag.com/how-the-public-was-manipulated-into-believing-the-teens-were-alive/92865/

This was all an excuse to disrupt the new coalition government formed by the Palestinians, and find a reason to go to war with Hamas.

 

[Vire]

I take it their homes were destroyed as soon as they were accused of the crime? Or were the bulldozers put on hold until a judgment was handed down?

No, but they were sentenced to prison. There isn't much else they can do aside from punish them.

Every army in the world has ground foot soldiers who act in despicable ways and commit unimaginable war crimes. See the United States in Vietnam. It's not something that is exclusive to Israel and it is very difficult to prevent.

 

[m_shortpants]

No, but they were sentenced to prison.

Every army in the world has ground foot soldiers who act in despicable ways and commit unimaginable war crimes. See the United States in Vietnam. It's not something that is exclusive to Israel and it is very difficult to prevent.

This wasn't something 'ground soldiers' did by accident. This was an order that came from above. To provoke Hamas into reacting so that Israel would have a pretext to 'retaliate'.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/15/after_palestinian_unity_deal_did_israel

 

[LNBL]

 

[Vire]

This wasn't something 'ground soldiers' did by accident. This was an order that came from above. To provoke Hamas into reacting so that Israel would have a pretext to 'retaliate'.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/15/after_palestinian_unity_deal_did_israel

That is complete conjecture. How am I suppose to believe some people who are trying to sell their book "Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel Is Coming to an End."

[/QUOTE]

I don't really get the point of this graphic. It would look identical if the Iron Dome did not exist.

 

[LNBL]

I just don't see how dealing with the West Bank has anything to do with stopping the Hamas. These are two separate issues at hand, and fixing one isn't going to solve the other.

The westbank can never be an example when innocent people get killed there as well.

 

[Codeblue]

That is complete conjecture. How am I suppose to believe some people who are trying to sell their book "Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel Is Coming to an End."


I don't really get the point of this graphic. It would look identical if the Iron Dome did not exist.

Why do you view it as a comparison instead of just needless death of 408 people who have nothing to do with awful politics?

 

[Vire]

Why do you view it as a comparison instead of just needless death of 408 people who have nothing to do with awful politics?

Because I've read the poster's post history and I know the point he is trying to make with the graphic.

It is awful regardless.

 

[badb0y]

It's pretty hilarious actually. Hamas was categorized as a terrorist organization because they aimed to kill civilians yet it's the Israelis racking up those civilian casualties.

 

[LNBL]

Because I've read the poster's post history and I know the point he is trying to make with the graphic.

It is awful regardless.

Oh my, please tell me. What is the point i'm trying to make and what did you find out in my post history?

And no, the numbers would still not have been identical.

 

[Codeblue]

Because I've read the poster's post history and I know the point he is trying to make with the graphic.

It is awful regardless.

Ah, I thought you were directing your comment towards the graphic instead of the intention. My mistake.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I don't really get the point of this graphic. It would look identical if the Iron Dome did not exist.

"I don't like what reality looks like, let's talk about an imaginary scenario instead"