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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]
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anonymous_abc
Member
If only the Palestinians had one, then both could just work of their frustration by firing rockets at each other.
RustyNails
Member
How many Israeli civilians died during operation Cast Lead vs Palestinians civilians (2009)?
Vire
Member
What does that have to do with the defense system of the Iron Dome? 750 rockets were launched at Israel, 182 civilians injured.
There have been over two thousand rockets launched in this year's attack by comparison thus far. Also, those rockets were not fired into highly dense cities like Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, they were fired into Ashdod, Beersheba and Gedera placing 1/8 of the Israeli population at risk.
Much more of the population is at risk this time.
It didn't exist back then, I assume.
It might have been closer, but not by much.
Palestinians have been firing rockets from Gaza since 2001, Iron Dome became operational at 2011, in that decade (which included the two years that had the highest number of launches) there were 25 deaths from rocket attacks.
I'm not sure exactly what are you even trying to argue here, like, you're saying killing hundreds of civilians is justifiable because under a theoretical set of circumstances there could've have been a lot more Israeli civilian casualties?
You're saying there is no point in showing the casualty difference because in some alternate universe it might not be the same?
Whatever, in any case, your assertion is not backed up by anything outside your desire to defend everything Israel does and/or win pointless HASBARA battles on the internet.
Vire
Member
No that's not what I'm saying. I have no problem with the Washington Post making that info graphic. It is 100% accurate.
I do have a problem however with the poster who was posting it with intentions of tilting the perception that only Israel is targeting innocent civilians when that isn't the case. And I agree, these discussions are pointless.
The point of the info graphic wasn't to be made to be used as propaganda.
RustyNails
Member
Vire
Member
Oh so I guess civilians with their legs blown off doesn't count now. Sucks for them I guess.
Using your inane logic, 182 civilians were injured with 750 rockets. If 2000 rockets are fired, that's roughly 2.6 times more collateral.
473 people injured or worse.
Spacecowboy77
Member
Yes.
The tunnels extent beyond the Green Line -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)
Latest development - IDF confirms they have a missing soldier-
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-palestinians-israel-soldier-idUSKBN0FR0MA20140722
This will not end well, on both sides..
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Which civilians? Israel or Palestine? Haha.
Because I am sure Palestine has their own share of civilians with their legs blown off too.
To answer your bolded question, just look back to the 18th and 19th centuries in America. We continually encroached and settled on the natives' land (enforcing it with our vastly superior military capability), and used any instance of them fighting back as an excuse to disproportionately wipe them out. The end result was what is widely considered genocide and mass displacement/near extinction of all of the native peoples. Considering the USA's actions at that time are widely regarded as inexcusable, genocidal, and repulsive to anyone with a modern sense of morality; I'm not sure it's a model Israel should aspire to.
I've been doing a lot of reading about this entire conflict over the last week. I've always followed it at a distance like most I'm sure, but I felt it was my responsibility to educate myself beyond just what I hear on TV or read on major news sites.
For starters, I've always been pretty supportive of Israel. I mean good people surrounded by blood thirsty terrorists (which is show it's portrayed by most US media) seems like a no brainer. Plus, with all the suffering the Jewish people have had in history, I felt like they deserved a place to call their own.
With all that said, all of my reading and research in the last week has definitely changed my view. Now, I still believe Israel has a right to exist and should be able to defend themselves, but the way they are going about it is pretty disgusting to be honest.
Hamas is a disgusting organization but that doesn't mean that the citizens of Gaza need to be suffocated like a bunch of prisoners. I literally had idea that people in Gaza are unable to leave or enter unless Egypt or Israel allow them. Also, regarding the blockade, while I can understand limiting items to limit the amount of weapons, restrictions on basic necessities and food are completely inhumane. It's obviously a ploy to force the people in Gaza to suffer so much that they finally give up and throw Hamas out. Making people suffer like that isn't going to achieve that goal. If anything, living conditions like that are going to drive people to take extreme measures, like joining a radical group like Hamas.
In any case, the Israel response in Gaza really is unexplainable. I can understand wanting to close the tunnels since that leads to opportunities for attacks in Israel. With that said, most of the attacks did nothing to further that goal. All we see are endless piles of innocent bodies and little to no legitimate reasons for those deaths. Israel has the training and capabilities to go into Gaza, blow up the tunnels and get out. No reason for 500+ dead. Disgusting. Like I said, I can support bombing the tunnels to close them up, but it's pretty obvious the deaths in Gaza having nothing to do with that.
Regarding the West Bank, it's sad to see no efforts of peace by Israel. I can understand now wanting to abandon all the settlements, as that is a lot of Israelis that would be displaced. I keep reading about discussions for even trades of land where Israel would take over settlement lands and give the Palestinians equal amounts of land instead. I think that would be a step in the right direction. Plus, stopping additional settlements would be a great start as well. Unfortunately, I don't see either happening.
TLR - My opinion of this conflict has really changed with all the research and reading I've been doing in the last week since this conflict has gone on. I've gone from a rather staunch Israel supporter to be rather disgusted by what has gone on in Gaza. I still support their right to exist and defend themselves, but 500+ civilian casualties is completely unnecessary and really completely disgusting.
Yep, I went through a very similar transformation of my views on the issue around 2010. I had never really looked into the issue beyond news headlines and the line of thinking you brought up that's promoted in American politics and media (a liberal democracy surrounded by violent autocratic theocracies). Then I started reading research on the internet and began doubting my unyielding support of Israel. Then I took a college course on the Israel/Palestine conflict (taught by a Jewish Rabbi who was very good at presenting the facts and motivations in the most impartial manner possible. still not sure what "side" he supports if any) which only further lowered my opinion of the Israeli government.
I still definitely support Israel's right to exist, and even if you disagree with that it's so impractical to contest that at this point, but so much of Israel's history is dominated by radical, far right extremists and former terrorists. It also sickens me how infrequently Western media brings up the Israeli settlements. That seems like the biggest root issue to me, as it makes it seem like Israel's long term strategy is to just bide their time, keep establishing settlements and displacing Arabs, until they are able to annex all of Palestinian land without having to worry about the ethnic balance in the electorate tilting away from a solid Jewish majority. It just pisses me off how they are aspiring to a de facto apartheid state/Theocracy (and arguable already are one), while pretending to be a civilized liberal democracy with equal rights. And then they get pissed whenever the international community tries to hold them up to the standards of Western democracies.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Ok, that's why I was confused. The image you quoted was listing deaths alone. If the image was listing deaths and injuries, your statement would be somewhat more accurate. (N.B. the following numbers are all sourced from Wikipedia) There have been 28 Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks since 2001; the highest number in any one year was 8 in 2008 (pre-Iron Dome), with 2,048 rocket attacks and 1,668 mortar attacks being launched that year. The worst year in terms of these attacks since Iron Dome was deployed was 2012, when 6 people were killed; 2,256 rocket attacks and 17 mortar strikes were launched that year. In both years the injury rates were much higher than the fatality rates, which is why I made that distinction earlier; 611 in 2008 and over 284 in 2012.
I don't have up-to-date figures for Hamas' most recent round of attacks, but Wikipedia says there have been 680 rocket attacks this year. Judging by the historical data, I don't think it can be claimed that the absence of Iron Dome would lead to the deaths of hundreds of Israeli civilians in the current conflict.
EDIT: I see that my crappy internet connection has meant that others have made the same point about the numbers. I want to make it clear that this isn't about downplaying the deaths of Israeli civilians, nor their injuries or psychological trauma. However, the stark disparity in the number of casualties on each side is a key point in arguments about the proportionality and morals of the actions of the Israeli government, and your post was a factually inaccurate response to that evidence.
RustyNails
Member
You said the killed number would be closer to 400. I showed that it was actually only 3. Are you willing to admit you were way, way off?
Knowing how many innocent people killed is pointless now?
Also, while I don't think the IDF is trying to kill civilians as a policy, Israel has been doing these type of attacks for long enough to know that there is a statistical certainty of this type of civilian casualties.
If you think the cost of human lives is justifiable, defend that position.
Vire
Member
I don't separate death or injuries on civilians. It's an attack on innocent people.
One isn't preferable or justifiable over the other. As I stated the number of people affected would be close to 470 based on your math.
Have no idea what he's talking about (and I'm really baffled why he thinks such stupidity helps Israeli PR), but Israel is now saying they have one soldier missing (although they suspect he's dead).
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
High level mental gymnastics going on here
We can compare dead to dead or injured to injured, but it seems odd to compare dead to dead and injured... How many injured Palestinians were there?
I got to ask you, you really think that's helping?
Like I get it, you want to help Israel image in the world, you want to help the HASBARA, but do you honestly think anyone reads such bullshit and say "hmmm, I may have been wrong about Israel"?
The only thing you achieve is to make people suspect that most Israelis/Jews are jingoistic hard liners who would defend anything Israel would ever do.
And fuck, I'm tired of having to deal with that shit myself.
Vire
Member
I just don't get the point he is trying to make.
That Hamas's rockets are shitty and can only injure people so clearly they are in the right? What is the point of this? There is no difference in intent of either party.
RustyNails
Member
So why couldnt IDF simply flooded the tunnels from the other side of the armistice line, like Egypt does? Instead of invading.
Jesus, I can't imagine. With that level of destruction, it's probably already in the thousands for Operation Protective Edge alone.
You tell me, you started whining that showing an infographic the contrast the number of casualties is pointless because of made up reason you have now abandoned.
Spacecowboy77
Member
I imagine they just don't know where the tunnels are.
RustyNails
Member
You started this downward slope saying Hamas rockets could have just as easily killed the number of civilians as Israel did. When proven otherwise, you shamelessly include Israel civilian injuries to inflate your number closer to 400.
Vire
Member
You are continually ignoring what I'm saying. I'm not criticizing the infographic itself, I'm criticizing the poster who is using it as propaganda to drive home his agenda.
Shameless to include people who have gotten their appendages blown off?
That is just sad. You are now defending the assault on the Israeli people because they are just mere injuries? I don't even know where to begin.
EDIT: I'm heading to bed. Have fun chastising all the other Jews in here.
I'm sure the number is absurd.
Why not use ground penetrating radar and find out rather than invade and cause further casualties? Surely they have the technology.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Can't blame them. Those Hamas things can grow just about anywhere.
They even grow in press offices and in hospitals.
Interceptor
Banned
I was talking abou the claimed missing soldier days ago. This was an obvious lie. Today we have a new one. Don't act dumb.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Shameless stuff.
His point is the response is disproportionate.
The rockets are shit, iron dome takes out a few of them and when they do manage to hit, they at worst injure.
Intent really means shit all, people could give a shit what you intend to do, people care what was done or what has happened. In that sense, yes, the deaths of 400-odd are significantly worse events than the injuring of even an equivalent number, but that hasn't even happened. Add in the fact that there is probably many more palestinian injured, but shit, what right do they have to complain when their kids, brothers, mothers, sisters, fathers are getting killed?
And it's not like Palestine have brought them on themselves. Just as you ask, what Israel do about the rockets, but what should Palestine do about the occupation of their land, about the abuses of power at the hands of the Israeli government, about their second class citizen standards.
Apparently, they think war is like turn-based combat, I kill one of you and then you kill one of me, or some shit. They think the lopsided death toll is supposed to mean something, but all it really means when two sides are flinging rockets, and other artillery, at each other is that one is better at it than the other. I don't really see how Hamas lack of accuracy or of actually killing people makes their constant attacks any better, but that's just me. People shooting at me is still a problem, even if they don't hit me.
He posted only the infographic, there was literally no other letter in the post your responded to.
There are over 3000 injured Palestinians (as of two days ago).
You are terrible at this HASBARA thing.
It is the same person.
Just reading fox news to see their bias on the issue.
it is sickening and hilarious at the same time that.
also an interview with elliott abrams where he blames hamas for using human shields and that obama is at fault for not complaining about hamas tactics.
problem with isreal is from birth, their children are taught to hate and that the Palestinians are worth nothing, which makes it easier for the isrealis to commit these crimes and laugh about it.
it is sickening and hilarious at the same time that.
also an interview with elliott abrams where he blames hamas for using human shields and that obama is at fault for not complaining about hamas tactics.
problem with isreal is from birth, their children are taught to hate and that the Palestinians are worth nothing, which makes it easier for the isrealis to commit these crimes and laugh about it.
Interceptor
Banned
It is not the same person.
Vire
Member
Agreed 100%.
As far as I can remember, Hamas only claimed they have captured one soldiers, now it's true, the Israeli ambassador denied that, but it seem like he had jumped the gun there.
I kinda hope they did, because the two options here are dead or captured :\.
Spacecowboy77
Member
I don't think it's that easy but I'm no expert.
Simple Google search came up with this -
http://www.ittn.org.il/technology.php?tech_id=CIV-1108_Technion
It seems at least they are trying to find a technology for it.
http://www.peacemakergame.com/
I think this is a worthwhile game to play, especially on the hardest difficulty because it simulates the problems both sides have to deal with. But, of course, in this game both sides want peace and the deescalation of violence.
If you play as Israel's Prime Minister and crack down on Palestine too hard, you lose by causing a Third Intifada. On the Palestine side, you have to deal with Hamas and Fatah, as well as trying to find funding for basic civil projects such as roads, housing, water control.
I think this is a worthwhile game to play, especially on the hardest difficulty because it simulates the problems both sides have to deal with. But, of course, in this game both sides want peace and the deescalation of violence.
If you play as Israel's Prime Minister and crack down on Palestine too hard, you lose by causing a Third Intifada. On the Palestine side, you have to deal with Hamas and Fatah, as well as trying to find funding for basic civil projects such as roads, housing, water control.
Vire
Member
Sorry to hear that, but my intent is not to claim that Israel is in the right here. I have repeatedly and will again disavow any support on harming civilians. My intent is that it's not as lopsided as some of the posters in this thread are making it out to be and that there is accountability on both sides that needs to be taken.
Vire
Member
Equal footing in military power? Or morality?
In terms of military power, of course it isn't close to being a fair contest. Morality, I'm not sure who is more morally bankrupt at this point in time.
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