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[Razgreez]

Sorry to hear that, but my intent is not to claim that Israel is in the right here. I have repeatedly and will again disavow any support on harming civilians. My intent is that it's not as lopsided as some of the posters in this thread are making it out to be and that there is accountability on both sides that needs to be taken.

Except that there is no "two sides" situation here. There's the oppressor/occupier, the oppressed/occupied and the resistance (which like every resistance in history are called "terrorists" - very original). Couple to that the well documented fact that the oppressed have been suffering for decades whether they resist or not.

It's clear through your hypocrisy that, though you may claim otherwise, your support stands firmly behind the oppressor. The only individual claiming to not be convinced of that is yourself and perhaps the individual who admonished me earlier for pointing out your hypocrisy.

 

[kamorra]

Sorry to hear that, but my intent is not to claim that Israel is in the right here. I have repeatedly and will again disavow any support on harming civilians. My intent is that it's not as lopsided as some of the posters in this thread are making it out to be and that there is accountability on both sides that needs to be taken.

I tell you what. You're not discussing with idiots in here. You're intentions are crystal clear. Or do you think what Israel does is not nice but it's understandable because rockets is subtle enough?

 

[Vire]

Except that there is no "two sides" situation here. There's the oppressor/occupier, the oppressed/occupied and the resistance (which like every resistance in history are called "terrorists" - very original). Couple to that the well documented fact that the oppressed have been suffering for decades whether they resist or not.

Hamas are terrorists. They are deemed so not just by Israel but by The United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan.

This is the same group that condemned the U.S. for the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

 

[daxter01]

Sorry to hear that, but my intent is not to claim that Israel is in the right here. I have repeatedly and will again disavow any support on harming civilians. My intent is that it's not as lopsided as some of the posters in this thread are making it out to be and that there is accountability on both sides that needs to be taken.

it may not be your intent but you are coming of as someone saying killing civilians is wrong but if your opposition is Hamas there is no other way around it and then you started a pissing contest about number of casualties

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Sorry to hear that, but my intent is not to claim that Israel is in the right here. I have repeatedly and will again disavow any support on harming civilians. My intent is that it's not as lopsided as some of the posters in this thread are making it out to be and that there is accountability on both sides that needs to be taken.

"Sure civilians are being killed in their hundreds im Gaza and the level of aggression being used by the IDF is disproportionate, verging on the criminal, but what else can Israel do to defend itself?" is essentially what your arguments are boiling down to and when you're called on this you act indignantly and claim that's not what you're doing.

And I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

EDIT: I'm heading to bed. Have fun chastising all the other Jews in here.

What are you implying here? That you and others are being singled out because you're Jewish?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Hamas are terrorists. They are deemed so not just by Israel but by The United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan.

Hamas are the same group that condemned the U.S. for the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

What kind of argument is this? I also condemn the killing of Osama Bin Laden. As does Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other NGOs. It was a targeted assassination of an unarmed person, without trial. They could have easily captured him, but they chose to kill him.

 

[Rafterman]

What kind of argument is this? I also condemn the killing of Osama Bin Laden. As does Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other NGOs. It was a targeted assassination of an unarmed person, without trial. They could have easily captured him, but they chose to kill him.

And the world is a better place for it.

 

[massivekettle]

What kind of argument is this? I also condemn the killing of Osama Bin Laden. As does Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other NGOs. It was a targeted assassination of an unarmed person, without trial. They could have easily captured him, but they chose to kill him.

Get your facts straight - he was hostile and armed (and was using women/civilians as shields, not unlike Hamas, strangely (or not)); no way he would have made it out of the room alive. I am sure that they wanted to capture him, but face it, this man did not want to get captured; he was ready to die in that bedroom of his.

 

[Vire]

"Sure civilians are being killed in their hundreds im Gaza and the level of aggression being used by the IDF is disproportionate, verging on the criminal, but what else can Israel do to defend itself?" is essentially what your arguments are boiling down to and when you're called on this you act indignantly and claim that's not what you're doing.

And I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.



What are you implying here? That you and others are being singled out because you're Jewish?

That isn't what I said at all, you just translated it into what you wanted it to say to fit your argument.

And yes there was some heavily negative stereotyping against people with Jewish names in this thread around 10 or so pages ago. The moderation swiftly dealt with those people however.

What kind of argument is this? I also condemn the killing of Osama Bin Laden. As does Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other NGOs. It was a targeted assassination of an unarmed person, without trial. They could have easily captured him, but they chose to kill him.

He was armed. And the Hamas aren't condemning it for the same reasons you are.

 

[Razgreez]

Hamas are terrorists. They are deemed so not just by Israel but by The United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan.

This is the same group that condemned the U.S. for the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

As pointed out previously the ANC was regarded as a terrorist organization and most of its members were on the terrorism watch list of the US and its affiliated countries until 2008. This was a mere 6 years ago.

Further to that israel was one of the staunchest supporters of apartheid in South Africa so much so that many israelis were labelling the now late Mandela an anti-semite for highlighting that fact.

In other words being called a terrorist organization by hypocritical governments like the US and its kind is not worth the paper those resolutions are signed upon. It's literally akin to "we don't like you and your criticism of us so you're a terrorist for resisting/opposing anything we do"

 

[Hindle]

I find it strange the leaders of Hamas and the Jihadist groups always tend to survive, do they themselves have access to bunkers and safety?

If the answer is yes, then it makes me wonder why these leaders don't build the same bunkers for thier people, instead of just abandoning them.

 

[zoukka]

And the world is a better place for it.

I dunno, Osama might've had some interesting intel about a lot of things.

 

[jakonovski]

And the world is a better place for it.

Not if you think with your brain instead of testosterone glands. Seriously, rule of law is what keeps the west together.

 

[Aaron]

Hamas are terrorists. They are deemed so not just by Israel but by The United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan.

This is the same group that condemned the U.S. for the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

No. These countries accuse Hamas of being terrorists. The US also insisted Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. These labels are driven by associated interests, and have nothing to do with some kind of definitive judgment. Israel have committed actions in line with terrorist groups, so why do they escape the label? Why can they bomb hospitals and claim it was in self-defense?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

And the world is a better place for it.

No, it is not. First of all, it further cemented the policy of illegal targeted killings, which often lead to the death of innocent people. It was a huge blow against the human rights movement. Second, he could have revealed valuable information in a trial.

@Vire: osama bin laden unarmed = 400.000 google hits

 

[massivekettle]

No, it is not. First of all, it further cemented the policy of targeted killings, which often leads to the death of innocent people. It was a huge blow against the human rights movement. Second, he could have revealed valuable information in a trial.

@Vire: osama bin laden unarmed = 400.000 google hits

"Osama bin Laden armed" = 6,130,000 Google hits.

 

[Hindle]

No, it is not. First of all, it further cemented the policy of illegal targeted killings, which often lead to the death of innocent people. It was a huge blow against the human rights movement. Second, he could have revealed valuable information in a trial.

@Vire: osama bin laden unarmed = 400.000 google hits

Bin Laden was a major threat to the world, by giving him a trial the US would be giving him the worlds media attention, and from there, he'd get to shout out his vile extremeist beliefs.

He had to be put down.

 

[Razgreez]

"Osama bin Laden armed" = 6,130,000 Google hits.

And yet the articles which are presented when googling those exact words all describe the unarmed situation. You clearly do not understand how search engines work

This is going way off topic which is exactly what these paid trolls desire

 

[Messofanego]

All the evidence points towards a clan in Hebron that is not controlled by Hamas.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28371966

Thanks for this.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

"Osama bin Laden armed" = 6,130,000 Google hits.

"Osama bin Laden was not armed"

Bin Laden was a major threat to the world, by giving him a trial the US would be giving him the worlds media attention, and from there, he'd get to shout out his vile extremeist beliefs.

He had to be put down.

Great, so you support murder? He is not at threat behind bars. Like he would have had any chance to speak publicly.

 

[Dopus]

Hamas are terrorists. They are deemed so not just by Israel but by The United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan.

This is the same group that condemned the U.S. for the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

One could quite easily make an argument for Israel being a rouge, if not terrorist state. Just because the West hasn't used the words has little bearing over the fact that Israel has collectively punished, abused and terrorised the Palestinian peoples for decades.

 

[Vire]

No. These countries accuse Hamas of being terrorists. The US also insisted Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. These labels are driven by associated interests, and have nothing to do with some kind of definitive judgment. Israel have committed actions in line with terrorist groups, so why do they escape the label? Why can they bomb hospitals and claim it was in self-defense?

If you want to support an organization that deems Osama Bin Laden a "holy warrior", by all means go right ahead.

You just won't find me standing behind you in your cause.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

The problem with Vire is that his reasoning either is extremely poor or extremely dishonest. His arguments aren't really arguments, just random matters of facts that he repeats in his relentless effort to paint a picture of the current situation that fits his beliefs. Which basically is that this is a normal conflict between two equal parts, with equal bad intents and that it is more or less by chance or skill that the one side suffers a thousand times the number of casualties in this conflict.

 

[Hindle]

"Osama bin Laden 'was not armed"



Great, so you support murder? He is not at threat behind bars. Like he would have any chance to speak publicly.

When it comes to people who want to commit mass murder against the US, British, Spanish, French, these are just some of the countries that Bin Laden attacked.

So yea, I do.

 

[jakonovski]

Bin Laden was a major threat to the world

Yet another bunch of hyperbole fueled by emotion. Can't you think calmly even after 13 years?

 

[jakonovski]

If you want to support an organization that deems Osama Bin Laden a "holy warrior", by all means go right ahead.

You just won't find me standing behind you in your cause.

Just remember you're saying this in service of explaining away Bin Laden levels of mass murder of Palestinians.

 

[Razgreez]

When it comes to people who want to commit mass murder against the US, British, Spanish, French, these are just some of the countries that Bin Laden attacked.

So yea, I do.

And the countries countries you mentioned have never been responsible for mass murder themselves? In fact these countries are guilty of mass murder right now through their direct support of the zionists' actions

 

[massivekettle]

The problem with Vire is that his reasoning either is extremely poor or extremely dishonest. His arguments aren't really arguments, just random matters of facts that he repeats in his relentless effort to paint a picture of the current situation that fits his beliefs. Which basically is that this is a normal conflict between two equal parts, with equal bad intents and that it is more or less by chance or skill that the one side suffers a thousand times the number of casualties in this conflict.

And you consider supporting Hamas rational?

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

If you want to support an organization that deems Osama Bin Laden a "holy warrior", by all means go right ahead.

You just won't find me standing behind you in your cause.

You don't think israeli soldiers are seen as warriors of god?

 

[Vire]

Just remember you're saying this in service of explaining away Bin Laden levels of mass murder of Palestinians.

No I am not.

I'm saying that in service of reasoning to as why the Hamas are considered terrorists. The civilians who reside in Gaza are not the Hamas, they are civilians.

I have no qualms with the people of Gaza.

 

[Toxi]

And you consider supporting Hamas rational?

Holy shit, it really is true. Every time you criticize Israel, people will accuse you of supporting Hamas.

 

[Vire]

Holy shit, it really is true. Every time you criticize Israel, people will accuse you of supporting Hamas.

There are people in this thread, on this page claiming that Hamas are not terrorists. That is what he is responding to.

You don't think israeli soldiers are seen as warriors of god?

By whom?

 

[Hindle]

Yet another bunch of hyperbole fueled by emotion. Can't you think calmly even after 13 years?

We were thinking calmly when we decided to put the bastard down, instead of going through years of trails and media attention.

 

[Chariot]

I think people underestimate the importance of Bin Laden in the terrorist organisation.
Wasn't he just a symbolic fossil by the point of his death?

 

[Deleted member 125677]

And you consider supporting Hamas rational?

rofl. Another prime example of master level reasoning, because clearly supporting Hamas was what I was doing with my post.

 

[jakonovski]

We were thinking calmly when we decided to put the bastard down, instead of going through years of trails and media attention.

Come on, you're basically beating your chest at me now here and calling it calm.

"Put the bastard down", use of tough language and using a term usually reserved for animals. 100% emotion fueled.

 

[kamorra]

Come on, you're basically beating your chest at me now here and calling it calm.

"Put the bastard down", use of tough language and using a term usually reserved for animals. 100% emotion fueled.

Well, the owner and caretaker of a pet is the only one who decides when and if to put it down.

 

[massivekettle]

rofl. Another prime example of master level reasoning, because clearly supporting Hamas was what I was doing with my post.

No, that's not what I was doing, and you know it. I was turning your argument against people who do support Hamas (indirectly, at the very least).

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

There are people in this thread, on this page claiming that Hamas are not terrorists. That is what he is responding to.
By whom?

Are you saying Israeli jews don't have extremists?
Who is building the settlements and breaking international law?

 

[Hindle]

Come on, you're basically beating your chest at me now here and calling it calm.

"Put the bastard down", use of tough language and using a term usually reserved for animals. 100% emotion fueled.

I'm not sure what your angle is with your use of the term emotion fueled. Bin Laden and his ilk have repeatedly tried to commit mas attacks on western soil, and in some cases have been successful. They've also inspired many attrocities as well.

With people like this, you don't bring them to trial, as they'll continue to be a threat.

Edit. But this is off topic.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

No, that's not what I was doing, and you know it. I was turning your argument against people who do support Hamas (indirectly, at the very least).

Then why did you specifically ask me this rhetorical question?

 

[iceatcs]

Wow. People are allow to emotion.

 

[Dopus]

No, that's not what I was doing, and you know it. I was turning your argument against people who do support Hamas (indirectly, at the very least).

What most people are saying is that Hamas are the resulting consequence of Israeli policy and the way that they've dealt with Palestine. Call it support if you want, but it's not. From settlement buildings, land stealing, demolition of housing, stealing of farm land to the arrest (kidnapping) of hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinians without charge. Added to this is how Israel is not even willing to engage in talks with Hamas, nor is it supportive of a unity government with Fatah and Hamas, nor is it supportive of Abbas and what he is trying to do. Any moderate is pushed to the side, consider the West Bank as just one of countless examples.

Israel time and time again have proven that they're not interested in resolving this situation until they've effectively ethnically cleansed the land. That's not hyperbole either. Breaking of truces, breaking of ceasefires. 2012 as the last example, the promise of Israel easing the pressure on Gaza didn't happen. Barley any of the conditions were met by Israel, yet people have the nerve to suggest that they are within their rights to act in this manner and 'defend' themselves. Hamas have put forward a reasonable list for a truce, and all you hear from the Israelis is nothing but more carnage upon a civilian population. Sure, there are terrorists mixed amongst them, but that is NOT justification for the levelling of entire buildings full of men, women and children.

 

[Roronoa95]

Are you saying Israeli jews don't have extremists?
Who is building the settlements and breaking international law?

It's always the same rhetoric:
Civilians are killed => But look at Hamas attacks with rockets.
Extremist Israeli supports Apartheid and colonization => But look at Hamas, it's a terrorist group.
Israel is illegally colonizing Palestine => None.

 

[marrec]

What most people are saying is that Hamas are the resulting consequence of Israeli policy and the way that they've dealt with Palestine. Call it support if you want, but it's not. From settlement buildings, land stealing, demolition of housing, stealing of farm land to the arrest (kidnapping) of hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinians without charge. Added to this is how Israel is not even willing to engage in talks with Hamas, nor is it supportive of a unity government with Fatah and Hamas, nor is it supportive of Abbas and what he is trying to do. Any moderate is pushed to the side, consider the West Bank as just one of countless examples.

Israel time and time again have proven that they're not interested in resolving this situation until they've effectively ethnically cleansed the land. That's not hyperbole either. Breaking of truces, breaking of ceasefires. 2012 as the last example, the promise of Israel easing the pressure on Gaza didn't happen. Barley any of the conditions were met by Israel, yet people have the nerve to suggest that they are within their rights to act in this manner and 'defend' themselves. Hamas have put forward a reasonable list for a truce, and all you hear from the Israelis is nothing but more carnage upon a civilian population. Sure, there are terrorists mixed amongst them, but that is NOT justification for the levelling of entire buildings full of men, women and children.

Totally agree with everything said here.

Except for the left out implication that Israels treatment of Gaza is justification for Hamas lobbing missiles (however ineffective) into Israel. We rightly should be talking about the gross injustice of the mass murder of civilians and at the same time we should recognize that in such oppressor/oppressed states before we've had non-violent uprisings time and time again that have proven to be more peaceful for the oppressed population. Hamas start from a position of violence and then are pushed from there. Throwing ineffectual missiles at your oppressor in order to goad them into killing your brothers is, at best, a very stupid idea.

 

[Locke Lamora]

Yeah, it's supposedly this building, the Al Salam tower

Still not confirmed by the german authorities but media claims that seven german citizens of palestinian descent got killed in the Salam tower collapse

They lived in the north-western part of Gaza but followed the evacuation warnings and moved further into the centre of Gaza (according to media).

 

[Hindle]

Totally agree with everything said here.

Except for the left out implication that Israels treatment of Gaza is justification for Hamas lobbing missiles (however ineffective) into Israel. We rightly should be talking about the gross injustice of the mass murder of civilians and at the same time we should recognize that in such oppressor/oppressed states before we've had non-violent uprisings time and time again that have proven to be more peaceful for the oppressed population. Hamas start from a position of violence and then are pushed from there. Throwing ineffectual missiles at your oppressor in order to goad them into killing your brothers is, at best, a very stupid idea.

If you bring Israel to justice over their actions, then surely Britain, the US, need to be brought to justice for the Iraq war. Russia just annexed Crimea, they need to be brought to justice as well.

It's just case of who's going to hand out the punishments?

 

[Dopus]

Totally agree with everything said here.

Except for the left out implication that Israels treatment of Gaza is justification for Hamas lobbing missiles (however ineffective) into Israel. We rightly should be talking about the gross injustice of the mass murder of civilians and at the same time we should recognize that in such oppressor/oppressed states before we've had non-violent uprisings time and time again that have proven to be more peaceful for the oppressed population. Hamas start from a position of violence and then are pushed from there. Throwing ineffectual missiles at your oppressor in order to goad them into killing your brothers is, at best, a very stupid idea.

It certainly isn't justification of the rocket attacks and that was never my intention to imply such a thing.

I agree with what you said, however, peaceful protest simply doesn't and hasn't worked in the West Bank or in Palestine in general. They are ignored whilst Israel continues with its settlement programme and continues to hinder any progress on the real issues. Gideon Levy had some interesting points on that and I'd recommend everyone read it - http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.606042

 

[Vire]

If you bring Israel to justice over their actions, then surely Britain, the US, need to be brought to justice for the Iraq war. Russia just annexed Crimea, they need to be brought to justice as well.

It's just case of who's going to hand out the punishments?

That's the problem, nothing will every come of any of these things because they are all world powers with nuclear capabilities.

There is no repercussions to anything anymore. You can literally get away with murder.

 

[Hindle]

That's the problem, nothing will every come of any of these things because they are all world powers with nuclear capabilities.

There is no repercussions to anything anymore. You can literally get away with murder.

I'm not an hypocrite.

If sanctions are placed against Israel which would affect their economy, then I want the same for Britain and the United States for our illegal invasion of Iraq.