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[dripdripsplash]

OK, but the fact is that it does exist, so what is your solution?

Since it does exist, then we must be realists.

Two states. '67 borders, dismantlement of all settlements in occupied territories, E. Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

 

[Zeeman]

Since it does exist, then we must be realists.

Two states. '67 borders, dismantlement of all settlements in occupied territories, E. Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

What about the right of return? Demilitarization of the Palestinian state? Would you be open to land swaps?

 

[Dude Abides]

I don't think the Israeli state should have existed in the first place. The reasoning behind the foundation has no legitimacy in my eyes, seeing that "God gave us these lands" aren't good reasons, in my opinion.

That wasn't the reasons. The Zionist movement was just another ethnic nationalist movement of the type that were widespread in the 19th and early 20th century. Most of its founders were secular. The reasons for establishing a Jewish state was that there was no state for Jews, and they had been persecuted in the places were they lived in diaspora. The reason for establishing it in Palestine were the historical connection between Jews and the fact that it was under British control and at the time nobody gave much thought to the wishes of the indigenous people in colonized lands.

Casting Zionism as a religious movement is ahistorical.

 

[Goliath]

I don't think the Israeli state should have existed in the first place. The reasoning behind the foundation has no legitimacy in my eyes, seeing that "God gave us these lands" aren't good reasons, in my opinion.

The reason that the Jewish State should not have existed is that it happened at the cost of an entire other people.

If the Zionists chose Argentina or Uganda, argentines or ugandians would have been the target of massacres and ethnic cleansing too, to make room for the Jewish State. I oppose this.

Welcome to the history and formation of a country. The displacement, subjugation, death and change of the native demographic is the foundation of pretty much EVERY country.

In fact the same goes for all of Israel's neighboring countries. And then of course war happens and state lines change and people are forced to adapt. That's life. You hold the formation of Israel to a higher standard then the formation of any other country, why? At the end of the day it's here and it has the right to exist like every other nation or country that exists or previously existed.

Focusing on it's right to exist is what terrorist like Hamas, Al-Qaeda and many other extremists used to justify their bigotry and terrorist attacks.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

It seems that in the article I linked this was the first time that they had found weapons in their facilities. Gaza doesn't have a lot of places to hide caches of weapons that can be secured.

Its is clear the rockets are hidden in these locations because of martyrdom's twisted appeal and chancing that the location is more secure than an underground cache that will likely be targeted. The rocket fire enabled Protective Edge. Brother's Keeper and the burning of Abu Khdeir alive enabled the rocket fire. The murder of the three Isreali hitchhikers (posted about previously) enabled Brother's Keeper and the revenge killing.

Hamas isn't breaking the cycle moving rockets around, holding civilians hostage; but, Israel has made a number of those civilians willing hostages. Does that give Israel the right to decimate those that stay and try to piece together shattered lives? The militants in Hamas appear to have been pushed into the extreme, and what do you think pushes them there? I'd say it is the conditions of a lasting occupation, and even a slow bleeding of an entire population and culture.

That's the problem. The cycle will simply never be broken at this point.

 

[Freezie KO]

Since it does exist, then we must be realists.

Two states. '67 borders, dismantlement of all settlements in occupied territories, E. Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

Without addressing the pragmatic "realism" of your proposal, would you be okay with one of those two states being Jewish and the other Palestinian?

 

[Toxi]

If the Zionists chose Argentina or Uganda, argentines or ugandians would have been the target of massacres and ethnic cleansing too, to make room for the Jewish State. I oppose this.

Wait, what? Andinia Project is nazi bullshit.

 

[maharg]

In fact the same goes for all of Israel's neighboring countries. And then of course war happens and state lines change and people are forced to adapt. That's life.

Oh come on. If every country was founded in 1948 this might have some merit, but it's precisely *because* all those other states have in their history all these bad things that we hope we don't have to repeat it again in modern statecraft. That the US massacred uncounted Native Americans and the Spanish committed outright and complete genocide is not a free pass for anyone who founds a new country today to do so as well.

And it's absolutely not an excuse for a 47 year military occupation, no matter who occupied those people before.

All forms of "double standard" arguments on this subject are so mindbendingly broken I can't believe anyone can actually make them with a straight face.

 

[dripdripsplash]

What about the right of return? Demilitarization of the Palestinian state? Would you be open to land swaps?

Right of return to all refugees, no demilitarization of the Palestinian state. No land swaps, '67 borders.

 

[curlyfriski]

All forms of "double standard" arguments on this subject are so mindbendingly broken I can't believe anyone can actually make them with a straight face.

It helps to be utterly amoral.

 

[yarden24]

Right of return to all refugees, no demilitarization of the Palestinian state. No land swaps, '67 borders.

thats great, but what you are actually saying is that you are for a one state solution, because there is no way there will be no land swaps, or right of return for all.

 

[Zeeman]

Right of return to all refugees, no demilitarization of the Palestinian state. No land swaps, '67 borders.

So you would want Israel to agree to the formation of two Palestinian states?

 

[Partial Gamification]

That's the problem. The cycle will simply never be broken at this point.

I refuse to accept that. Maybe not in my lifetime, but that is unacceptable. It could be easily broken but all measures seem too drastic [or expensive] that I can currently imagine. Incremental changes begin with a few concessions and those might be found if a few common (viable) goals could be established for all parties.

 

[Freezie KO]

So you would want Israel to agree to the formation of two Palestinian states?

Exactly what I was thinking. Right of return? Never gonna happen. If this is the "realism" we're dealing with, there will never be peace.

 

[brownfedora]

Shutting down flights to Tel Aviv is a brilliant move by the US government.

Hurt Israel economically while making it appear driven by public safety. It also exposes Israel's argument about the danger posed by these rockets.

 

[dripdripsplash]

That wasn't the reasons. The Zionist movement was just another ethnic nationalist movement of the type that were widespread in the 19th and early 20th century. Most of its founders were secular. The reasons for establishing a Jewish state was that there was no state for Jews, and they had been persecuted in the places were they lived in diaspora. The reason for establishing it in Palestine were the historical connection between Jews and the fact that it was under British control and at the time nobody gave much thought to the wishes of the indigenous people in colonized lands.

Casting Zionism as a religious movement is ahistorical.

True it was secular, but used religious arguements for it's cause and narrative.

Welcome to the history and formation of a country. The displacement, subjugation, death and change of the native demographic is the foundation of pretty much EVERY country.

In fact the same goes for all of Israel's neighboring countries. And then of course war happens and state lines change and people are forced to adapt. That's life. You hold the formation of Israel to a higher standard then the formation of any other country, why? At the end of the day it's here and it has the right to exist like every other nation or country that exists or previously existed.

Focusing on it's right to exist is what terrorist like Hamas, Al-Qaeda and many other extremists used to justify their bigotry and terrorist attacks.

Israel was founded in a time where imperialism was getting increasingly unpopular and international law and human rights was getting established. That's the difference between Israels foundation and the rest of the world. We don't live in a time where you can displace a whole people and call it normal business anymore.

Without addressing the pragmatic "realism" of your proposal, would you be okay with one of those two states being Jewish and the other Palestinian?

Sure.

Wait, what? Andinia Project is nazi bullshit.

A part of it yes. Theodor Hertzl, father of Zionism says otherwise though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andinia_Plan

Starting in 1880, Argentine governments had a policy of massive immigration, and the liberal tendencies of the Roca administration were instrumental in making European Jews feel welcome.

Maurice de Hirsch sponsored the Jewish Colonization Association for the support of agricultural settlements, and the idea was seriously considered as an alternative to Palestine by leading Zionists such as Theodore Herzl. However, these did not include plans for an independent Jewish state there, but for a local Jewish autonomy. The notion of a Jewish homeland, not in Palestine, but elsewhere in the world, such as a region of South America or in East Africa, eventually led to the schism of the Jewish Territorialist Organization.

The Jewish population in Argentina grew and prospered in the ensuing years, though the community eventually became much more urban (see History of the Jews in Argentina).

EDIT: And in other news:

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201407222113-0023952

'Exposing the traitors' page IDs Palestinian workers in Israel in hopes of getting them fired

A Facebook page is sharing profile screenshots of Palestinians who live and/or work in Israel, calling for them to be fired. The page (link is external), translated from Hebrew, means "Exposing the Traitors". It has been posting sensitive information concerning Palestinians who have written on social networks about the current situation in Gaza. The public page received more than 1800 likes since its creation on July 5

 

[Maninthemirror]

Israel has banned Al Jazeera from Israel and shelled their offices as a warning

Isreali FM has said Al Jazeera is a terror group supporting Hamas

 

[Maninthemirror]

Exactly what I was thinking. Right of return? Never gonna happen. If this is the "realism" we're dealing with, there will never be peace.

Right of Return is EXACTLY the Israeli policy to right of return all Jewish people to return to Israel and claim Israeli citizenship. Palestinians are asking for the SAME>

 

[Renzoku]

Israel has banned Al Jazeera from Israel and shelled their offices as a warning

Isreali FM has said Al Jazeera is a terror group supporting Hamas

Holy fucking lol. Source?

 

[Goliath]

Oh come on. If every country was founded in 1948 this might have some merit, but it's precisely *because* all those other states have in their history all these bad things that we hope we don't have to repeat it again in modern statecraft. That the US massacred uncounted Native Americans and the Spanish committed outright and complete genocide is not a free pass for anyone who founds a new country today to do so as well.

And it's absolutely not an excuse for a 47 year military occupation, no matter who occupied those people before.

All forms of "double standard" arguments on this subject are so mindbendingly broken I can't believe anyone can actually make them with a straight face.

Some recent founded countries:

-Bosnia and Herzegovina
Independence Day: March 3, 1992

-Czech Republic and Slovakia
Independence Day: January 1, 1993

-Kosovo
Independence Day: February 17, 2008

etc...My point is that there is never a formation of an entire country without casualties. Heck Jews know that better then anybody because they often got kicked out of countries as politics changed. They chose it's location because it was at the time crap land owned by the Brits and had an already sizable Jewish population. So they formed a place where millions of displaced Jews could go after the events of WWII and the fall of the Soviet Union (there is a huge population of Russian Jews).

 

[curlyfriski]

Israel has banned Al Jazeera from Israel and shelled their offices as a warning

Isreali FM has said Al Jazeera is a terror group supporting Hamas

Source?

 

[Freezie KO]

Sure.

If you support the creation of a Jewish state, then you're a Zionist.
--

Right of Return is EXACTLY the Israeli policy to right of return all Jewish people to return to Israel and claim Israeli citizenship. Palestinians are asking for the SAME>

Then have a right of return for Palestinian refugees to return to the State of Palestine, not the State of Israel. Nobody in their right minds wants two Palestinian states for the price of one.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Source?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/al-jazeera-gaza-offices-hit-israeli-fire

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4547752,00.html

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

Israel has banned Al Jazeera from Israel and shelled their offices as a warning

Isreali FM has said Al Jazeera is a terror group supporting Hamas

Two stray bullets hit near their building. They are not banned.

The level of journalistic integrity in this war is just ... it's lower than Putin's media.

 

[Quotient]

The level of journalistic integrity in this war is just ... it's lower than Putin's media.

This is not a direct reference to this current conflict, but journalism in general has being going downhill for the longest time. News (or should really be referred to as entertainment) stations are just after the biggest headline to grab audiences, they don't care about fact-checking or bias. The advent of social media has really increased this.

 

[Dipz]

Holy fucking lol. Source?

http://live.aljazeera.com/Event/Gaza_Blog/122255865

Al Jazeera's Stephanie Dekker reports on the warning shots that Israel army fired on Al Jazeera's bureau in Gaza.

"Two very precise shots were fired straight into our building.

The Israeli army has confirmed it hit two warning shots into our office I am not sure what the reason would be.

It caused a lot of panic, especially among the civilians working in the building.

We are high so we have a very strong vantage point over the area and perhaps they wanted us to move out."

 

[dripdripsplash]

If you support the creation of a Jewish state, then you're a Zionist.
--



Then have a right of return for Palestinian refugees to return to the State of Palestine, not the State of Israel. Nobody in their right minds wants two Palestinian states for the price of one.

Call me what you want.

As I said I do not see the reasoning behind the foundation of the state being legitimate and it should not have existed in the first place, but since it is does exist, the only realistic thing is too call for some kind of agreement.

 

[Maninthemirror]

If you support the creation of a Jewish state, then you're a Zionist.
--



Then have a right of return for Palestinian refugees to return to the State of Palestine, not the State of Israel. Nobody in their right minds wants two Palestinian states for the price of one.

Its a 2 state solution with 1 central government in both Gaza Strip and West Bank. Basically an East and west Palestine

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/al-jazeera-gaza-offices-hit-israeli-fire

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4547752,00.html

1. Two bullets in a war zone hit near their building.

2. An Israeli minister complained about Al Jazeera's biased reporting.

So yes ... that = Israel attacked and banned Al Jazeera ...

 

[Renzoku]

Call me what you want.

As I said I do not see the reasoning behind the foundation of the state being legitimate and it should not have existed in the first place, but since it is does exist, the only realistic thing is too call for some kind of agreement.

EDIT: And that's what I meant, right of return to the State of Palestine.

I agree with this reasoning. Israel should have never existed, but if we played that card now, then we could start reverting statehood for just about every state on the planet due to consequences of their founding.

Instead, they shouldn't be treated with some sort of sanctimonious or special impunity.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Two stray bullets hit near their building. They are not banned.

The level of journalistic integrity in this war is just ... it's lower than Putin's media.

Its happening.
http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israe...lieberman-wants-to-ban-al-jazeera-from-israel

 

[Opiate]

Two stray bullets hit near their building. They are not banned.

The level of journalistic integrity in this war is just ... it's lower than Putin's media.

From the outside looking in on this conflict, here are my observations:

1) Extreme diffusion of information. Hugely disparate interpretations of the same events from either side. This problem is increased further by the natural difficulty of getting proper information during prolonged military conflict(s).

2) Extreme emotions. Vitriol and passion in equal amounts and from both sides.

3) Highly complex geopolitical history.

Combining all three observations creates some heated debate where I'm reasonably confident that people cannot plausibly have solid claim to "the truth," even when they say they do. I have seen far too many people supportive of the Israeli state and the Palestinian state who were not just emotionally animated but convinced that they truly knew what was going on despite the confusion.

 

[maharg]

Some recent founded countries:

-Bosnia and Herzegovina
Independence Day: March 3, 1992

-Czech Republic and Slovakia
Independence Day: January 1, 1993

-Kosovo
Independence Day: February 17, 2008

etc...My point is that there is never a formation of an entire country without casualties. Heck Jews know that better then anybody because they often got kicked out of countries as politics changed. They chose it's location because it was at the time crap land owned by the Brits and had an already sizable Jewish population. So they formed a place where millions of displaced Jews could go after the events of WWII and the fall of the Soviet Union (there is a huge population of Russian Jews).

I didn't say no countries had been founded since 1948, so I'm not sure what your point is here, even with the addendum at the bottom. And if there is a double standard exposed by highlighting Bosnia and Kosovo, it's that people have and are being convicted by war crimes tribunals for their crimes in the wars that are part of their founding, while Israel continues to violate the fourth geneva convention with impunity in the West Bank through population transfer into occupied territory.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I agree with this reasoning. Israel should have never existed, but if we played that card now, then we could start reverting statehood for just about every state on the planet due to consequences of their founding.

Instead, they shouldn't be treated with some sort of sanctimonious or special impunity.

Israel differs from this because of the time that they were formed. A time where international laws and regulations was being put in place and imperialism was on the down low.

 

[Goliath]

True it was secular, but used religious arguements for it's cause and narrative.



Israel was founded in a time where imperialism was getting increasingly unpopular and international law and human rights was getting established. That's the difference between Israels foundation and the rest of the world. We don't live in a time where you can displace a whole people and call it normal business anymore.



Sure.



A part of it yes. Theodor Hertzl, father of Zionism says otherwise though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andinia_Plan



EDIT: And in other news:

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201407222113-0023952

Arabs and Muslims live in Israel. They didn't kick everyone out. And of course people still get displaced in the world. Heck in the 1979 Iran Revolution there were plenty of refugees. There are plenty of refugees to this day from all over the world.

At the end of the day many Arab countries during the formation of Israel did not want a Jewish state government. The Grand Mufti told Arabs to leave because they shouldn't be under a Jewish state. (Grand Mufti also supported the Nazis). The Six Day war started and Jordan and Egypt lost. Here we are now with the aftermath.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Arabs and Muslims live in Israel. They didn't kick everyone out. And of course people still get displaced in the world. Heck in the 1979 Iran Revolution there were plenty of refugees. There are plenty of refugees to this day from all over the world.

At the end of the day many Arab countries during the formation of Israel did not want a Jewish state government. The Grand Mufti told Arabs to leave because they shouldn't be under a Jewish state. (Grand Mufti also supported the Nazis). The Six Day war started and Jordan and Egypt lost. Here we are now with the aftermath.

I don't need a history lesson. And don't try to frame it as palestinians leaving willingly in '48.

EDIT: And stop playing the whatabout game.

 

[Cromat]

Israel differs from this because of the time that they were formed. A time where international laws and regulations was being put in place and imperialism was on the down low.

Why does every people have a right to self-determination but Jews don't?

Also I always laugh when the word imperialism is used in relation to Israel. It's fucking tiny... worst empire ever.

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

Its happening.
http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israe...lieberman-wants-to-ban-al-jazeera-from-israel

No a minister said he was pissed off at Al Jazeera ...

It is not banned. You specifically stated it was banned, you lied.

Israel has banned Al Jazeera from Israel and shelled their offices as a warning

You also stated they shelled their building another lie. Two stray bullets from unconfirmed location hit their building. A shell is a large high explosive round that would knock their building down.

 

[Zen]

Why does every people have a right to self-determination but Jews don't?

Also I always laugh when the word imperialism is used in relation to Israel. It's fucking tiny... worst empire ever.

The sentence you are responding to does not infer that Jewish people have no right to self determinism.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Why does every people have a right to self-determination but Jews don't?

Because we live in a time and age where it isn't allright anymore to displace and murder an indigenous people to live there yourself.

If Israel had been founded a couple of hundreds of years ago you wouldn't see people bat an eye. It was normal business then.

It's not anymore.

EDIT: And as Zen says I do not think that the Jewish people shouldn't have a right to self-determination and a State, I just think that these aspirations shouldn't happen at the cost of another people!

 

[theignoramus]

1. Two bullets in a war zone hit near their building.

2. An Israeli minister complained about Al Jazeera's biased reporting.

So yes ... that = Israel attacked and banned Al Jazeera ...

You probably thought the US army shelling their building in Iraq was a coincidence too.

 

[maharg]

Why does every people have a right to self-determination but Jews don't?

And the Palestinians? Do they deserve self-determination? Or do the crimes of Jordan and Egypt preclude that and justify a 47 year military occupation?

Also I always laugh when the word imperialism is used in relation to Israel. It's fucking tiny... worst empire ever.

Colonialism is the correct term, and the damage colonialism has done to the world on both large and small scales is unfathomable. And Israel, including its conflict with Palestine, are absolutely an outgrowth of colonialism.

 

[Opiate]

No a minister said he was pissed off at Al Jazeera ...

It is not banned. You specifically stated it was banned, you lied.



You also stated they shelled their building another lie. Two stray bullets from unconfirmed location hit their building. A shell is a large high explosive round that would knock their building down.

I think it's important to admit that there is kernel of truth here: yes, I'm sure the Israeli government finds Al-Jazeera's existence to be inconvenient, and yes, I'm sure they'd rather they're gone, even amongst those who won't admit so publicly as the minister in that article did.

But "two bullets hit a building and a minister wants Al-Jazeera gone" is an order of magnitude less severe than "Al-Jazeera's HQ has been shelled and the entire government has banned them."

I suspect there are order-of-magnitude exaggerations of that type coming from all angles in this conflict, and it makes it maddeningly difficult for an outsider looking in to make an objective observation.

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

Because we live in a time and age where it isn't allright anymore to displace and murder an indigenous people to live there yourself.

If Israel had been founded a couple of hundreds of years ago you wouldn't see people bat an eye. It was normal business then.

It's not anymore.

List of national border changes since World War I

That list is pretty long. Even after WW2.

 

[Zen]

List of national border changes since World War I

That list is pretty long. Even after WW2.

Lets not pretend they are equivocal.

 

[Chariot]

List of national border changes since World War I

That list is pretty long. Even after WW2.

Eh, some of these borderchanges are peaceful or at least have no hot war on them, like the founding of the two germanys and the uniting of them. Or the Sowjet Union giving back some land to Finland. Of course there is still war in the world, no way to deny that, but since the major forces are wary of waging war for land (the USA has many wars but they don't actually capture or lose land), it's a lot less then it used to be in the huge wars before the end of WW2.

 

[Zen]

welp

brace yourselves for images of people melted by chemical burns, on twitter.

is this even legit though?

Israel has used White Phosphorus in the past. Completely illegal. We will see suppose.

 

[Chariot]

Israel has used White Phosphorus in the past. Completely illegal. We will see suppose.

Yeah about that.
Has some pro Israel Gaffer defended this stuff now? Or are they still just ignore it?

 

[Freezie KO]

Al Jazeera shouldn't be banned, but it's certainly a propaganda tool. Al Jazeera = Qatar = one of four countries that was against Egypt's proposed ceasefire.

Because we live in a time and age where it isn't allright anymore to displace and murder an indigenous people to live there yourself.

If Israel had been founded a couple of hundreds of years ago you wouldn't see people bat an eye. It was normal business then.

Because the displacement of about 700,000-1,000,000 Jews from Arab lands happened after your arbitrary line of 1948, do you support reparations paid by the Arab countries towards the families of those displaced?

 

[Partial Gamification]

Yeah about that.
Has some pro Israel Gaffer defended this stuff now? Or are they still just ignore it?

Please, let's not try to bait others or pigeonhole them. It creates more noise.