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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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Razgreez said:
It's a double edged blade, it always has been. Easily susceptible to well coordinated propaganda/exploitation which in turn requires an immense level of effort and cooperation amongst people to help the truth rise above that.
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That is true, but we have the ability to look at everything critical. Without the internet we wouldn't maybe not even be able to read a different opinion. But currently people call shit on a lot of false sources, like the pictures of Gaza that were actually pictures from syria. We can and have to read opinions that are not others. can be annyoing at times, but we have at least the potential of reading different sights.
 
"Israel absolutely has to bomb and invade Gaza . . . they are under a relentless barrage of deadly missile attacks from Gaza!"

*FAA bans flights to Israel for 24 hours due to missile risk*

"HOW DARE YOU BOYCOTT ISRAEL WITH THAT FAA BAN! You Jew-haters! It is perfectly safe to fly to Israel!"


Wait . . . what?
 
TrojanBlade said:
.
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Now now, please, that picture is offensive!! Why you put Satan along netanyahu and regev?

TrojanBlade said:
Some true media. At least someone is NOT sucking Israel's balls all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPX0F-UqF-k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q3S87zGPoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdQ6QP6jja8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEdijtwXgjI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6-hLtGW1C0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6L6O-Nm7mk

And finally I salute John Stewart. A true hero among all the sheeps in the US media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrlUzkd8Z8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqKu5rSTyP8
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BRAVO. Glad to watch all of that.

nib95 said:
So does that image mean the US has veto'd this too? Or will the investigation go ahead despite it? Disgraceful from the US either way.
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The inestigation passed, against US desires.
 
TrojanBlade said:
.
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Yeah, sure.
Here are some FAQs pertaining to Islam, Evolution, science, rationalism, and religion in general.

This page is in the process of being expanded into a more comprehensive resource.

Is evolution compatible with Islam?
In short, no. More precisely, it is not compatible with plain readings of the Quran and hadith traditions. For a detailed discussion of why, see here.
Click to expand...

Well, doesn't this mean that Islam and science are at odds? What does that say about the rationality of Muslims and Islam?
Many modern Muslims believe that "science and Islam can never contradict." In other words, nothing in revelation (i.e., the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (s)) could ever contravene what we know of the world through science. At first blush, this seems logical. We can expect that man-made texts, especially those from antiquity, will contradict natural facts, since people of the past were ignorant of the scientific method. But the source of revelation, in contrast, is the All-Knowing God Himself who also created the universe. Therefore, no contradiction is possible.

The flaw in this logic is that it ignores the fallible nature, not of religious texts, but of... science. Scientific consensus is an ever-evolving discourse. What scientists hold as fact one day may be overturned the next. As an example, physicists in the early twentieth century believed that the universe was infinite in size and age. Only in the 1930s did scientists begin to seriously consider a Big Bang theory of the development of the cosmos. Of course, the idea of an eternal universe contradicts the theologies of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which all posit a finite point of Creation. Had Muslims in the early 1900s, for example, decided to reinterpret their theology in order to accommodate the eternal steady-state model of the universe that was in vogue at the time, they would have had to backtrack a mere three or four decades later.

In short, science is not always correct in its representation of the universe. In fact, historically, it is often wrong. Furthermore, scientists themselves acknowledge the provisional nature of science in that their research is perpetually a "work in progress" and subject to change. Therefore, Islam's incompatibility with some contemporary scientific contentions, such as evolution, is not problematic in the least. In fact, from the Muslim perspective, it should be entirely expected. The Quran provides us with timeless truths describing, in many verses, the magnificence of creation, truths relayed by the Creator Himself with His perfect knowledge. It is expected that imperfect human knowledge, as represented by scientific discourse, will fail to match the Divine Address.
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http://islamandevolution.com/frequentlyaskedquestions/

Great source there. Not only are Jews evil but science is bullshit.
 
Dash27 said:
Was there an answer in here? I don't know the proper proportion, so I'm asking you what you think it is. You said Israel has a right to defend itself by stopping the rockets, but also it needs to be proportional. How many civilian deaths are ok and if you reach your number and the rockets havent stopped, then what.
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This is the continuum fallacy you're invoking. One does not have to identify precisely where a line is in order to say an act is on one side of it. If you think killing 500 civilians to deter rockets that killed one person is justifiable, just say so.
 
speculawyer said:
Yeah, sure.




http://islamandevolution.com/frequentlyaskedquestions/

Great source there. Not only are Jews evil but science is bullshit.
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Yeah sure what?

A great source??? Says who? This is not even close to what Islam says. Please stop propagating stupidness and lies.

I am just going to quote one verse from Quran to show how wrong you are:

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
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Maninthemirror said:
Mayor of Jeruselum and Bloomberg: Israel is as safe as NY and USA
Wolf Blitzer: I feel safe here


Doesn't this negate the threat of Hamas Rockets? so when Bloomberg and the Mayor of Jeruselum are asked why is Israel attacking Gaza, the response will be we are under siege by Hamas?
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All last week Wolf Blitzer was playing back to back videos of him running for shelter. Now it's safe lol.
 
 
TrojanBlade said:
Thank you for watching. More people need to see them and discover the truth about Israel and how the US media hides the truth.
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Nah, people don't like being told that they are force fed propaganda everyday in this country (US). On every situation from Iraq to Iran to Russia and Ukraine to Palestine and Israel no information is giving to us unbiased, we mock the Russians for being brainwashed by their media when the citizens of this country are equally brainwashed. I wasn't raised in the US so i am able to see the sheer propaganda and lies the media gets away with, and the masses eat it up because they have been feeding on those lies since childbirth. That is why it is so hard to convince most Americans both in this board and in real life to view things from a neutral perspective and consider all sides.
 
I agree current coverage of the Israeli offensive is not very good, but I'd be somewhat wary before turning to Russia Today as a paragon of neutral reporting.
 
AstroNut325 said:
I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to the Israel v. Palestine stuff. But is that map really accurate? If yes... WOW! What happened? What provoked the transition(s)? And why the heck is the US so blindly in love with Israel?
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This is essentially the problem of the masses that have no clue of the history of that region and then they are being fed with pro-israel propaganda by the mainstream media. This is not a religious fight. Its about occupation and oppression by one country over the other. What would the Americans do if Mexico (this is hypothetical) starts invading and taking their land and homes? Would they be called terrorist if the fought back? People need to use their brain and not eat up the shit media feeds.

People react after learning truth

Here is another shocker:

Gaza is Burning: Here's What the Corporate Media isn't Telling You
 
Crab said:
I agree current coverage of the Israeli offensive is not very good, but I'd be somewhat wary before turning to Russia Today as a paragon of neutral reporting.
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I've stayed away from the channel because they are supposedly a Kremlin mouthpiece but I was impressed with her in those clips

She is also smoking hawt
 
NullPointer said:
If the idea is purely to prevent rocket attacks Israel can strike the launchers themselves, can't they?

Why shell hospitals and flatten residential buildings that are loosely connected to Hamas in some way? Why the snipers? Why the flechette rounds?

This latest incursion looks very wide ranging in its goals - striking general infrastructure targets and anything even remotely connected to Hamas, and not just the military arm.
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Where do you think they shoot from? Where do you think they hold the rockets?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI&feature=youtu.be

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/2...ders-who-can-be-seen-in-hallways-and-offices/

http://www.unrwa.org//newsroom/pres...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

Sure, Israel does not have clean hands in this case, but there really is no way to destroy the rockets/launchers by themselves without hurting civilian population.

All the while Hamas leaders sit in their 3-star hotels in Qatar, while not giving a single shit about "their" people:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4549051,00.html
 
RageBot said:
Where do you think they shoot from? Where do you think they hold the rockets?
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I thought the launchers were relatively large? Wouldn't they require setup? In the open?

And I am speaking here of the launchers and not the ammunition. People who stand next to live, firing armaments of war are fair targets imho, but Israel seems to have a much broader set of targets than the launchers themselves, including the homes of people associated with Hamas, infrastructure and areas near where there might have been launches in days past.
 
Cloudy said:
I've stayed away from the channel because they are supposedly a Kremlin mouthpiece but I was impressed with her in those clips

She is also smoking hawt
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My personal rule of thumb is that the attractiveness of the presenter is inversely correlated with the quality of the news. Sad, but true.
 
I find russia today someone reliable for this conflict if only because their insane biases don't reach into this realm, I mean besides shitting on the US, but in this case they don't seem to have to fabricate dead bodies being loaded onto an airplane because they needed a cover story and one of the interns saw an episode of Sherlock. Not like I would cite only them, but I have not seen them lying through their teeth yet.
 
NullPointer said:
I thought the launchers were relatively large? Wouldn't they require setup?

And I am speaking here of the launchers and not the ammunition.
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The launchers themselves are also reatively small, and can be carried around by a person.

The main problem is that they're so small that in order to take them out, you either bomb them from afar, or send in soldiers.
So if they are shot from civilian areas, you can choose either to kill some civilians while bombing the launcher, or fighting all the way on foot to get to it.

And just ahead of time, since I assume someone will say that Gaza is so dense that you can only shoot from civilian areas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_City
Gaza population density - 11,500/km^2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density

for comparison.

Now, considering that the leader of Hamas himself stated he will never disarm (if my source, which is Israeli, can be trusted - this is your choice):
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4549051,00.html
I don't see any other way to deal with such rockets, no matter how little the "actual" threat is to Israeli population, since it still exists, without civilian casualties of Palestinian civilians.
 
kess said:
The next generation of Likud almost makes Netanhayu look like a moderate in comparison. You have people like Tzipi Hovotely meeting with Glenn Beck, of all people, to speak about Islam.
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aren't they in a coalition with an even further right party?
 
RageBot said:
Where do you think they shoot from? Where do you think they hold the rockets?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI&feature=youtu.be

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/2...ders-who-can-be-seen-in-hallways-and-offices/

http://www.unrwa.org//newsroom/pres...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

Sure, Israel does not have clean hands in this case, but there really is no way to destroy the rockets/launchers by themselves without hurting civilian population.

All the while Hamas leaders sit in their 3-star hotels in Qatar, while not giving a single shit about "their" people:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4549051,00.html
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According to Human rights watch there was no evidence that there were weapons in hospitals, now what? And International Law states that shotting at hospitals is at all time ILLEGAL, especially at war time. Since there was no evidence of there being weapons, how do you explain them shooting at the hospitals anyways.
 
RageBot said:
The launchers themselves are also reatively small, and can be carried around by a person.
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Do you have any links on the type of rocket launchers being used?

The best I've found is Khaibar-1 M302 rockets, courtesy of an article on globalsecurity.org.

globalsecurity.org Hamas Rockets article said:
July 2014 witnssed yet another escalation in HAMAS rocket capabilities with the introduction of the new longer range Khaibar-1 M302 rocket, capable of targetting much of the Israeli population. On March 5, 2014 the Israeli Navy intercepted a shipment of “dozens” of rockets identified as “M-302" rockets aboard a cargo ship name the Klos-C in the Red Sea. The rockets were being shipped from Syria to Iran and destine for Sudan where they could be taken through Egypt to Gaza.

The M-302 rocket is a Syrian-made munition that can launch a 375-pound warhead as far as 125 miles. According to Israeli media reports, the model intercepted on March 6, 2014 was an A302, which is five meters long and with a total weight of 500 kilograms. It has a range of 90 kilometers and carries a 170 kilogram warhead.
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I've had less luck finding images of launchers, but they look to be mounted on heavy vehicles and not man portable.

ieYzFK21eJSb5.jpg
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iOmWyRXLI2QD5.jpg
 
nib95 said:
So does that image mean the US has veto'd this too? Or will the investigation go ahead despite it? Disgraceful from the US either way.
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It certainly is pathetic the US voted no (but sadly not a surprise). But holy shit at all those European countries being absent. Guess they have good PR teams.
 
Pilgor said:
The first photo they were shown was of dead Syrian kids.

The second photo they were shown was not of an IDF soldier.

There's a name for this, but people's feelings get hurt when it's used.
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Its sad no one gets the irony when they preach "don´t believe the mainstream media" while using fake picures to transport an agenda.
 
speculawyer said:
"Israel absolutely has to bomb and invade Gaza . . . they are under a relentless barrage of deadly missile attacks from Gaza!"

*FAA bans flights to Israel for 24 hours due to missile risk*

"HOW DARE YOU BOYCOTT ISRAEL WITH THAT FAA BAN! You Jew-haters! It is perfectly safe to fly to Israel!"


Wait . . . what?
Click to expand...

The best way to scare tourists off is to get them killed visiting your country. But Israel doesn't seem to realize this at all. Of course they also don't realize that their ethnic cleansing of Palestine is fueling hatred for them around the world and one day they will go too far and Big Daddy US won't be able to stomach the idea of protecting them anymore. Americans can be slow to wake up and realize the truth but when they do, they tend to get real angry about it. Just look at the Iraq War and how Americans feel about it now.
 
NullPointer said:
Do you have any links on the type of rocket launchers being used? [/IMG]
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They are from a year ago or so, but I suspect that's what they are using nowadays too

EXsMd3i.jpg

tjkgFm5.jpg


They really can't smuggle sophisticated rocket launchers through their tunnels...

RageBot said:
I don't see any other way to deal with such rockets, no matter how little the "actual" threat is to Israeli population, since it still exists, without civilian casualties of Palestinian civilians.
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Negotiate with Hamas for a reasonable peace truce? OR perhaps not only get rid of Hamas, but kill every Palestinian child and woman to make sure that no one in the future even thinks of forming a resistance group like Hamas
 
walking fiend said:
They are from a year ago or so, but I suspect that's what they are using nowadays too

EXsMd3i.jpg

tjkgFm5.jpg


They really can't smuggle sophisticated rocket launchers through their tunnels...


Negotiate with Hamas for a reasonable peace truce? OR perhaps not only get rid of Hamas, but kill every Palestinian child and woman to make sure that no one in the future even thinks of forming a resistance group like Hamas
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Second picture is Hezbollah weapons, not Hamas. Don't think Hamas has such weapons as posted by the first poster of those inages, i don't know tbh.
 
Dude Abides said:
This is the continuum fallacy you're invoking. One does not have to identify precisely where a line is in order to say an act is on one side of it. If you think killing 500 civilians to deter rockets that killed one person is justifiable, just say so.
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So your answer is you don't know.

As as I said, and you agreed, Israel is well within it's rights to stop these rocket attacks. Fortunately Israel has good defenses and Hamas has crappy rockets. So it's more an act of terrorism than killing civilians.

On the flip side Hamas uses their people as shields and exploits them for sympathy. So you'll have to tell me roughly where the line is before you can claim it's not proportionate. Is it a 1 for 1 ratio? 10 to 1? I don't need precise just a general idea of how many you think is ok.
 
Dubbedinenglish said:
The vast majority look like this:
Hamas-rocket-launcher-armed.jpg


Basically crudely welded steel frames that can set up and have little cost when destroyed.
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Sure, in 2010.

Today, in addition to Qassam rockets, they use Fajr-5 and M-302 rockets.

These are M-302 rockets seized by Israel, while being smuggled from Iran into Gaza. These are long range rockets targeting Tel Aviv.

Sorry to spoil your efforts to mislead people.

700_57ei2qaqg7n1pr9oblblbpqzqgrier5q.jpg
 
Pilgor said:
Sure, in 2010.

Today, in addition to Qassam rockets, they use Fajr-5 and M-302 rockets.

These are M-302 rockets seized by Israel, while being smuggled from Iran into Gaza. These are long range rockets targeting Tel Aviv.

Sorry to spoil your efforts to mislead people.

700_57ei2qaqg7n1pr9oblblbpqzqgrier5q.jpg
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All of the one's Israel has even shown that I have seen on TV are the ones that he mentioned. The ones that you are mentioning were seized before they got to Gaza, so how were they used? Can you show an example of them being used?
 
Dash27 said:
So you're answer is you don't know.

As as I said, and you agreed, Israel is well within it's rights to stop these rocket attacks. Fortunately Israel has good defenses and Hamas has crappy rockets. So it's more an act of terrorism than killing civilians.

On the flip side Hamas uses their people as shields and exploits them for sympathy. So you'll have to tell me roughly where the line is before you can claim it's not proportionate. Is it a 1 for 1 ratio? 10 to 1? I don't need precise just a general idea of how many you think is ok.
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Jesus dude, did the IDF give you a handbook on talking points?
 
genjiZERO said:
Jesus dude, did the IDF give you a handbook on talking points?
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The term "proportionate" comes up a lot. He brought it up but it's always floating around in these discussions. So I think it's reasonable to ask what he considers proportionate. Or you can answer too!
 
Dash27 said:
So your answer is you don't know.

As as I said, and you agreed, Israel is well within it's rights to stop these rocket attacks. Fortunately Israel has good defenses and Hamas has crappy rockets. So it's more an act of terrorism than killing civilians.

On the flip side Hamas uses their people as shields and exploits them for sympathy. So you'll have to tell me roughly where the line is before you can claim it's not proportionate. Is it a 1 for 1 ratio? 10 to 1? I don't need precise just a general idea of how many you think is ok.
Click to expand...

Getting sick of this excuse used by many IDF defenders. The number of civilian deaths already is disproportionate, that is a fact.

Why do you think the UN has called for investigation into Israel's actions? Why do you think the Human Rights Watch has stated Israel is engaging in illegal actions?
 
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