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[All Hail C-Webb]

Getting sick of this excuse used by many IDF defenders. The number of civilian deaths already is disproportionate, that is a fact.

Why do you think the UN has called for investigation into Israel's actions? Why do you think the Human Rights Watch has stated Israel is engaging in illegal actions?

On what planet are wars fought with the desire to have a proportionate number of deaths?
Things will be proportionate if Hamas stops asking for concessions they will never get, and just agrees to a cease fire.

 

[m_shortpants]

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/23/headlines

Israel continues to bombard the Gaza Strip amidst talks over a ceasefire. Israeli military attacks today include the bombing of Gaza’s sole power plant and the heavy shelling of Khan Younis, killing six people and leaving at least 20 wounded. The Palestinian death toll is near 650, including more than 160 children. More than 4,000 have been wounded. According to Gaza officials, 475 houses have been totally destroyed, and more than 2,600 homes have been partially damaged. Israel has also struck 46 schools, 56 mosques and seven hospitals. Meanwhile, two more Israeli soldiers have been killed, bringing the Israeli military death toll inside Gaza to 29. A farm worker from Thailand also died inside Israel after being hit by rocket fire from Gaza.

 

[genjiZERO]

The term "proportionate" comes up a lot. He brought it up but it's always floating around in these discussions. So I think it's reasonable to ask what he considers proportionate. Or you can answer too!

Yes, by definition 1 to 1 or multiple or fraction thereof. Any deviation is disproportionate.

 

[LNBL]

On what planet are wars fought with the desire to have a proportionate number of deaths?
Things will be proportionate if Hamas stops asking for concessions they will never get, and just agrees to a cease fire.

I never said I wanted the number to be proportionate, that would mean more civilian deaths in Israel and that would just as inhumane as it is for the Palestinian civilians.

Hamas needs to stop asking for concessions you say, so in other words have peace with the current oppression by the Israeli government and just lie on their back. No, I think this war and the number of deaths and not to mention the disgusting things the IDF did to the palestinians during the manhunt for those 3 teenagers has only made it less possible that Hamas will forfeit and not strive for the negotiation terms they want to set out in a treaty.

With the UN now going to research this disgusting war and the HRW already speaking out, I can also see pressure increasing on the Israeli government.

 

[Dude Abides]

So your answer is you don't know.

As as I said, and you agreed, Israel is well within it's rights to stop these rocket attacks. Fortunately Israel has good defenses and Hamas has crappy rockets. So it's more an act of terrorism than killing civilians.

On the flip side Hamas uses their people as shields and exploits them for sympathy. So you'll have to tell me roughly where the line is before you can claim it's not proportionate. Is it a 1 for 1 ratio? 10 to 1? I don't need precise just a general idea of how many you think is ok.

Yes, I don't know the precise ratio where a response becomes disproportionate in the abstract. Do you? It doesn't really matter, because I've claimed the response we've seen in this particular instance is disproportionate, and you can't even be forthright enough to say whether it is or isn't.

Here, read this and come back when you're ready to argue like a grown up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

 

[NullPointer]

These Are The Rockets Hamas Has Been Shooting At Israel

Syrian-made M302 rocket fired by Hamas at Hadera

Long-Range Artillery Rockets in Gaza's Arsenal

Good links, thanks. So I guess most of the rockets are of the smaller variety with the launch stands or trailer mounted. They'd still need something pretty big to launch those M302s though right? Are those vehicle mounted or in static positions?

 

[Zen]

So your answer is you don't know.

As as I said, and you agreed, Israel is well within it's rights to stop these rocket attacks. Fortunately Israel has good defenses and Hamas has crappy rockets. So it's more an act of terrorism than killing civilians.

On the flip side Hamas uses their people as shields and exploits them for sympathy. So you'll have to tell me roughly where the line is before you can claim it's not proportionate. Is it a 1 for 1 ratio? 10 to 1? I don't need precise just a general idea of how many you think is ok.

There is zero proof that Hamas uses people as Human shields.During and following the last round of violence there were twenty two investigations into the claim of Human Shield usage by Hamas.

Every report without fail either came to the conclusion that Hamas does not use Human shields or that there is no proof of them employing this tactic.

Here is one such report you can read from Amnesty international.

Amnesty international: 22 days of Death and Destruction: There is no evidence that Hamas engaged in Human shielding.
http://www.icawc.net/fonds/02_07_09_gaza_report.pdf

Human Rights Watch, on Israel’s Conduct

After conducting an investigation, Human Rights Watch (HRW) issued a report on Wednesday accusing Israel of carrying out “unlawful” strikes in Gaza, ones that “either did not attack a legitimate military target or attacked despite the likelihood of civilian casualties being disproportionate to the military gain.” It noted that “Such attacks committed deliberately or recklessly constitute war crimes.” HRW Middle East Director Sarah Leah Whitson also added that Israel’s actions raise “serious questions as to whether these attacks are intended to target civilians or wantonly destroy civilian property.”

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israelpalestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians



Israel Deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish ... There were numerous instances of deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects
~ United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict The GoldStone Report
The Gold Stone Report
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf

Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch (16. juli, 2014):

"Israel’s rhetoric is all about precision attacks but attacks with no military target and many civilian deaths can hardly be considered precise [...] Recent documented cases in Gaza sadly fit Israel’s long record of unlawful airstrikes with high civilian casualties."

"The presence of a single, low-level fighter would hardly justify the appalling obliteration of an entire family [...] Israel would never accept an argument that any Israeli home of an Israel Defense Force member would be a valid military target."

"Warning families to flee might reduce civilian casualties but they don’t make illegal attacks any less illegal [...] The Israeli failure to demonstrate why attacks that are killing civilians are lawful raises serious questions as to whether these attacks are intended to target civilians or wantonly destroy civilian property."

"The longstanding failure of either side to prosecute war crimes in Gaza means that the only meaningful option for justice and accountability is legal proceedings before the International Criminal Court [...] How many more civilians will die as a result of unlawful Israeli attacks before President Abbas submits Palestine to this court?"

So then on the subject of confirmed war crimes and conduct

Don't forget this UN report and it's findings either…

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

Palestinian children in the Gaza and the West Bank, captured by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said.

The U.N. committee regretted Israel's "persistent refusal" to respond to requests for information on children in the Palestinian territories and occupied Syrian Golan Heights since the last review in 2002.

During the 10-year period, an estimated 7,000 Palestinian children aged 12 to 17, but some as young as nine, had been arrested, interrogated and detained, the U.N. report said.

Many are brought in leg chains and shackles before military courts, while youths are held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months, the report said.

Nor this…

DCI - Palestine submits 14 cases of sexual assault and threats to the UN for investigation
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1476&CategoryId=1

On 18 May 2010, DCI-Palestine submitted 14 cases to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture for investigation. The submission relates to the sexual assault, or threat of sexual assault, of Palestinian children at the hands of Israeli soldiers, interogators and police between January 2009 and April 2010. The ages of the children range from 13 to 16 years.

DCI-Palestine is becoming increasingly alarmed at reports contained in sworn affidavits received from children that they are being subjected to sexual assault, or threat of sexual assault, in order to obtain confessions.

In one of the cases documented by DCI-Palestine, a 15 year-old boy recalls his experience after being arrested by Israeli soldiers from his family home at 2am, in September 2009: ‘While sitting on the ground near the truck, a person speaking Arabic approached me and grabbed my hands and ordered me to stand up and accompany him. He grabbed me so violently and pulled me. He forced me to walk with him for about 20 metres and I could see from under the blindfold that we stopped behind a military jeep. He slapped me hard twice and grabbed my testicles so hard and started pressing them. Then, he asked me whether I threw stones and Molotov cocktails and I said I did not. He started shouting and saying ‘liar, your mother’s a c**t.’ He started beating me all over my body and once again he grabbed my testicles and started pressing hard. “I won’t let go of your testicles unless you confess,” he said to me. I felt so much pain and kept shouting. I had no other choice but to confess to throwing stones.’

There have been several reports now regarding IDF personnel torturing or threatening otherwise innocent Palestinians, in to signing confessions of crimes they never committed.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122341945&postcount=2823

I am legitimately not being cheeky when I say I hope you will actually reply to this, I do not say that out of malice or patting myself on the back, I just think having responsive communication between people on each side pof the issue is pretty important. I still need to go through that collection of Israel news that someone posted a few pages back, the one where he made the comment about the echo chamber.

 

[mattiewheels]

I feel like this is a case where people here and everywhere have really chosen sides, but I have a very hard time doing that with this mess. I feel equally against and for both sides at the same time, it's pointless and all-important at the same time and my brain can't reconcile a good outcome. I feel like this struggle will outlive me and my children's children.

 

[badb0y]

Human shields is obviously a bullshit excuse.

 

[Dash27]

Yes, I don't know the precise ratio where a response becomes disproportionate in the abstract. Do you? It doesn't really matter, because I've claimed the response we've seen in this particular instance is disproportionate, and you can't even be forthright enough to say whether it is or isn't.

Here, read this and come back when you're ready to argue like a grown up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

Again you're dancing around this question. You brought up disproportionate but you cant give me any idea of what that means logistically. Is it extremely disproportionate? Just a little? Medium?

The IDF can do what they need to so long as the Dude Abides? I'm holding you to your own standard and you're coming up empty, save for unrelated wikipedia entries.

They were being attacked by rockets repeatedly. It had to be stopped. If there's a way to do that without civilian deaths.... well here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

Or "proportionally".. you'd have to define the term in order for it to be applicable. Give it a shot.

 

[KtSlime]

Human shields is obviously a bullshit excuse.

It seems really strange to call them human shields, as a shield is supposed to defend against attack, however Israel attacks regardless. If an object (person) has no effectiveness against attack, it's simply not a shield.

 

[Dryk]

They were being attacked by rockets repeatedly. It had to be stopped. If there's a way to do that without civilian deaths.... well here you go:

In the long run less people will die if you just let them attack you. You gain nothing by escalating it. In the end one side is going to have to lay down arms first and let the other see that they want peace, it'll be easier if it's the one that has a stable government and likes to call themselves a civilised democracy.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Again you're dancing around this question. You brought up disproportionate but you cant give me any idea of what that means logistically. Is it extremely disproportionate? Just a little? Medium?

The IDF can do what they need to so long as the Dude Abides? I'm holding you to your own standard and you're coming up empty, save for unrelated wikipedia entries.

They were being attacked by rockets repeatedly. It had to be stopped. If there's a way to do that without civilian deaths.... well here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

Or "proportionally".. you'd have to define the term in order for it to be applicable. Give it a shot.

Playing semantics with people's lives? This is a rather low form of argument to take.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

It seems really strange to call them human shields, as a shield is supposed to defend against attack, however Israel attacks regardless. If an object (person) has no effectiveness against attack, it's simply not a shield.

Yeah, it would be accurate to say that Hamas has turned every Palestinian into an Israeli target.

 

[Zen]

Human shields is obviously a bullshit excuse.

It seems like an outright by Israel fabrication to win the PR war.

It is worse than how israel claims that Hamas deliberately stashing weapons in civilian areas to create civilian casualties because that at least seems somewhat true, however the devil are in the details.

While it is clear that they do stash weapons (a vacant school for instance), they don't really have a choice in terms of available spaces, and given all the reports of Israel attacking places without merit, I think it is pretty clear that Israel decision making for what targets to hit and based almost completely on worst case assumptions (like they hit the hospitals, or destroy the chicken coups because it could have rockets and then claim that they did) rather than evidence.

 

[Dude Abides]

Again you're dancing around this question. You brought up disproportionate but you cant give me any idea of what that means logistically. Is it extremely disproportionate? Just a little? Medium?

The IDF can do what they need to so long as the Dude Abides? I'm holding you to your own standard and you're coming up empty, save for unrelated wikipedia entries.

They were being attacked by rockets repeatedly. It had to be stopped. If there's a way to do that without civilian deaths.... well here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

Or "proportionally".. you'd have to define the term in order for it to be applicable. Give it a shot.

A response that results in 500 civilian deaths to eliminate a threat that resulted in 1 civilian death is disproportionate. I already made this clear. I can state it for you yet again but I can't understand it for you.

I never said that absolutely no civilian casualties would be justified - in fact I explicitly stated the opposite - so your link to the Nirvana Fallacy shows nothing more than your inability or unwillingness to comprehend straightforward concepts expressed in simple English.

Perhaps instead of this rather pathetic flailing about you should man up and just tell us if you think killing 500+ civilians to prevent attacks that killed 1 person is justified or not.

 

[RustyNails]

Human shields is obviously a bullshit excuse.

"Hamas was hiding behind civilians, so we bombed them anyway"

 

[Aaron]

"Hamas was hiding behind civilians, so we bombed them anyway"

"UN says that Hamas has never actually hidden behind civilians. We obviously haven't bombed UN inspectors enough."

 

[Dai101]

"Hamas was hiding behind civilians, so we bombed them anyway"

**We'll keep bombing, it's too hard to hit children

 

[nib95]

There is zero proof that Hamas uses people as Human shields.During and following the last round of violence there were twenty two investigations into the claim of Human Shield usage by Hamas.

Every report without fail either came to the conclusion that Hamas does not use Human shields or that there is no proof of them employing this tactic.

Here is one such report you can read from Amnesty international.

Amnesty international: 22 days of Death and Destruction: There is no evidence that Hamas engaged in Human shielding.
http://www.icawc.net/fonds/02_07_09_gaza_report.pdf

Human Rights Watch, on Israel’s Conduct



http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israelpalestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians



Israel Deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish ... There were numerous instances of deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects
~ United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict The GoldStone Report
The Gold Stone Report
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf

Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch (16. juli, 2014):






So then on the subject of confirmed war crimes and conduct



http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122341945&postcount=2823

I am legitimately not being cheeky when I say I hope you will actually reply to this, I do not say that out of malice or patting myself on the back, I just think having responsive communication between people on each side pof the issue is pretty important. I still need to go through that collection of Israel news that someone posted a few pages back, the one where he made the comment about the echo chamber.

Pure ether. My quote made it in and all.

 

[Agent Unknown]

This whole thing has been infuriating to watch. Israel thinks they can just bomb hospitals, kill patients in beds, aid workers and journalists, all while butchering hundreds of women and children wholesale. Meanwhile Israeli civilians celebrate and cheer, have they lost their minds? Have they no respect for their own ancestors' survival of the horrors of the Holocaust? How can you look at a dead Palestinian child or mother and not be reminded of a Jewish child or grandma who was murdered in WWII? Seriously, it blows my mind. Not excusing anyone, both Israel and Palestine have a lot of blood on their hands from over many decades but this is insanely appalling. Is this the first time the U.N. has been able to push through a vote for a war crimes investigation against Israel? Cynic in me says it won't do any good or will be obstructed into failure. Also, I remember reading a NY Times article from several years ago quoting anonymous IDF soldiers who confessed that they were expressly told by their commanders to not worry about killing civilians during the attack on Lebanon several years ago.

 

[Dai101]

This whole thing has been infuriating to watch. Israel thinks they can just bomb hospitals and butcher women and children wholesale, have they lost their minds? Have they no respect for their own ancestors' survival of the horrors of the Holocaust? This is insanely appalling. Is this the first time the U.N. has been able to push through a vote for a war crimes investigation against Israel? Cynic in me says it won't do any good or will be obstructed into failure.

There has been a LOT of resolutions by the UN but israel just keep ignoring and violate those, why? because FUCK YOU that's why ...

The UN is powerless when the big players (US among others) don't care or blattanly vote against.

 

[Agent Unknown]

There has been a LOT of resolutions by the UN but israel just keep ignoring and violate those, why? because FUCK YOU that's why ...

The UN is powerless when the big players (US among others) don't care or blattanly vote against.

What I figured, sad.

 

[NullPointer]

According to Gaza officials, 475 houses have been totally destroyed, and more than 2,600 homes have been partially damaged. Israel has also struck 46 schools, 56 mosques and seven hospitals.

Democracy Now: Israel Bombs Gaza’s Only Power Plant as Toll Nears 650

 

[dabig2]

"Hamas was hiding behind civilians, so we bombed them anyway"

I loved the posts that state that all the dead Palestinians are part of some red shirt hive, ready to sacrifice their lives so that Hamas can win some non-guaranteed sympathy from a bunch of protesters around the world (protesters who actually yield no power).

Oh yes, and only "telegenic" Palestinians need apply here of course.

 

[ramuh]

I reiterate my point about the "magic number" of casualties on both sides. A thousand Palestinian deaths (militants and civilians) and around 60 Israeli deaths. Then there will be peace. And then we do it again in a few years.

 

[unpopularblargh]

This was from The Daily Show back in 2008. How times change...

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/0hlk16/strip-maul

 

[BrokenEchelon]

It's too bad the US flight ban got lifted so quickly.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Pure ether. My quote made it in and all.

I'd love to hear his response to that.

 

[RustyNails]

It's too bad the US flight ban got lifted so quickly.

As long as FAA wasn't pressured into lifting it, I'm ok. FAA is not in the business of making decisions for the sake of international policy.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'd love to hear his response to that.

You won't. This is what he's done. When his arguments get dismantled and he's thoroughly beaten down he just goes away for a while, ignoring all the points made to counter his blatant cheerleading, then will re-emerge in a day or two. Eventually repeating all the same stuff.

 

[ramuh]

It's too bad the US flight ban got lifted so quickly.

Why is that too bad? You think a rocket fired from Hamas could hit a terminal or something?

 

[ZiZ]

I'll post this here from another thread:

with the recent events in Gaza I think now would be a good time to talk about this Comic book

Footnotes in Gaza is a journalistic non-fiction comic book by American Journalist Joe Sacco about the time he spent in Israel/Palestine and his quest to get to the bottom of two incidents that happened in Gaza during 1956.

The art is great, The story is very interesting and Joe has a good sense of humor. It's non-fictional, and the parallels between then and now are astonishing.

I urge everyone to read it, if only to get another perspective on this conflict from another form of media.

 

[theignoramus]

Democracy Now: Israel Bombs Gaza’s Only Power Plant as Toll Nears 650

Someone ought to gather a list of every egregious incident involving the bombing of civilians or civilian infrastructure, (Im talking hospitals, mosques, cafes, etc) then, as a subheader, list the IDF's explanation for the bombings, and finally, list the investigative conclusions of third party NGOs.
I have no doubt a vividly clear picture would emerge.

 

[Atenhaus]

I'll post this here from another thread:

I've had this sitting on my shelf for the past two years. I think this is the best time to start reading it.

 

[ramuh]

Someone ought to gather a list of every egregious incident involving the bombing of civilians or civilian infrastructure, (Im talking hospitals, mosques, cafes, etc) then, as a subheader, list the IDF's explanation for the bombings, and finally, list the investigative conclusions of third party NGOs.
I have no doubt a vividly clear picture would emerge.

Let's do the same for Hamas rocket fire. A UN backed investigation of where every rocket was intended, where it reached, and the damage done. Then we get answers by a third party.

 

[KingK]

Let's do the same for Hamas rocket fire. A UN backed investigation of where every rocket was intended, where it reached, and the damage done. Then we get answers by a third party.

Sure why not? I don't think the vast majority of people criticizing Israel are supporters of Hamas tactics though, if that's what you're implying.

 

[ramuh]

Sure why not? I don't think the vast majority of people criticizing Israel are supporters of Hamas tactics though, if that's what you're implying.

No just transparency for all.

 

[Opto]

Democracy Now: Israel Bombs Gaza’s Only Power Plant as Toll Nears 650

Israel thought it was too easy for civilians to run out of their house in the middle of the night if the lights were on.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Death toll is now 715

Human shield argument is the biggest copout argument. In an area where there are 10000 people per square mile. Israel sets a target and fires with impunity. Sure it has the firepower to cleanse everyone but that would be too obvious so here is the strategy. Find the target, ignore civilians around and destroy the target, civilians or not nearby. Their target is Hamas and even if civilians are nearby they become collateral damage. Of course Israel had to defend that demolish Hamas by any means necessary which caused collateral damage, its that Hamas is using them as human shield which is like a criminal in a home and the police fire a mortar in the home to kill the criminal, innocent kids ? Yes no problem for Israel because they atleast got their target and oh for the PR , say Hamas was using them as human shield. Oh and the rockets? Dont worry bloomberg said Israel
Is perfectly safe and its offensive to think like he told wolf blitzer that its not safe so the rocket threat argument is out of the window

 

[Aaron]

Let's do the same for Hamas rocket fire. A UN backed investigation of where every rocket was intended, where it reached, and the damage done. Then we get answers by a third party.

If these rockets did any damage, you'd know. Israel and its supporters would be loudly lamenting the harm caused (and rightly so). Recent rocket attacks have been neglible.

 

[NullPointer]

Human shield argument is the biggest copout argument.

Has Israel recognized even a single Palestinian civilian death as anything other than the result of a human shield? Or are all Gazans fair game wherever they may be found?

 

[KingK]

No just transparency for all.

Fair enough. I definitely support any effort to investigate war crimes committed by any party here.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Let's do the same for Hamas rocket fire. A UN backed investigation of where every rocket was intended, where it reached, and the damage done. Then we get answers by a third party.

If that was the case the 1000 Hamas rockets would kill 1000s of Israelis before iron Dome in 2013. You know how many Israelis have died by the 4500 rockers fired since 2001? 28 Israelis

You know how many Palestinians have died as retaliation in the same time? 5000

 

[ramuh]

If that was the case the 1000 Hamas rockets would kill 1000s of Israelis before iron Dome in 2013. You know how many Israelis have died by the 4500 rockers fired since 2001? 28 Israelis

You know how many Palestinians have died as retaliation in the same time? 5000

Number of deaths doesn't equal intent. The number is what equals intent. Both sides suck.

 

[badb0y]

Let's do the same for Hamas rocket fire. A UN backed investigation of where every rocket was intended, where it reached, and the damage done. Then we get answers by a third party.

Criticizing Israel doesn't make me a Hamas supporter but given the tactics that Israel utilizes (apartheid-like state, open air prison, illegal settlements) I really don't see what choice the Palestinians have but to fight back.

After reading up the history of the region over the past 70 years (remember this didn't just start two weeks ago) I can safely say that if I was put in the same position as Palestinians are in I would fight back. There really isn't any other option:
1.) Lay down and let Israel screw you over by building illegal settlements, treating you like a second class citizen, and blockading the borders.
2.) Try to escape but how likely is that when the borders are closed and your essentially locked in a prison.
3.) Wait for someone to come save you. (Highly unlikely given the amount of international support for Israel)
4.) Fight Back

What I still don't understand is what Israel's endgame is here. They don't want to outright take over Gaza and the West Bank because they would have to give Palestinians a voice in the government, they don't respect the borderlines and continue to take land from the Palestinians, they continue to suffocate the regions with blockades which leads to high unemployment rates and civil unrest, and they continue to bitch about getting attacked and retaliate by bombing Gaza every few years.

This is unsustainable in the long run and I would like to hear what Israel's plan is for a peace treaty. Are they going to give the illegally taken over land back to the Palestinians? Are they willing to open the borders and allow for trade so there's some form of economy in Palestine? Are they even willing to take a look at Hamas' pretty reasonable demands? What are Israel's baseline demands? My Google-fu is failing me because I can't find anything about what Israel's demands are for a peace treaty.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Number of deaths doesn't equal intent. The number is what equals intent. Both sides suck.

The intent by Hamas is clear and Israel is clear. Hamas wants to let all rockets fly nomatter where they hit and 4500 have resigned in nearly 30 deaths, they don't know where the rockets are going

The intent by Israel is clear and Hamas is the target and civilians are necessary collateral. Israel knows where each bullet and guided missile is flying and it can tell better if there are civilians nearby and the death tolls is a magnitude times higher as a result on a Palestinian side.


If there was any moral issue by this war Israel would avoid civilian casualties but it doesnt its aim is Hamas and if civilians are harmed so be it and its retort is well Hamas was near civilians so we cant help it if they died because Hamas was near them. But almost everyone knows they know they got their target and in the end thats all that matters to the IDF

 

[Aaron]

Number of deaths doesn't equal intent. The number is what equals intent. Both sides suck.

If you want to talk intent, Israel contiunes to eat away the West Bank. They continue to blockade Gaza. They don't honor agreements and break cease fires. They also bomb hospitals. Hamas is no angel, but even from intentions, Israel comes off much worse.

Israel's intent seems to kill as many people as they can get away with, wait to the furor dies down, and resume the cycle of killing.

 

[ramuh]

The intent by Hamas is clear and Israel is clear. Hamas wants to let all rockets fly nomatter where they hit and 4500 have resigned in nearly 30 deaths, they don't know where the rockets are going

The intent by Israel is clear and Hamas is the target and civilians are necessary collateral. Israel knows where each bullet and guided missile is flying and it can tell better if there are civilians nearby and the death tolls is a magnitude times higher as a result on a Palestinian side.

Then I propose The airstrikes stops. And for every rocket fired randomly at a location within Israel a random high caliber artillery shell is fired random back. If there are 100 rockets make it 100 rounds.

 

[RustyNails]

Must read article on Netanyahu's strategy. I want to highlight the whole article but here are selective quotes if you're in a hurry:

POLITICO: Israel Provoked This War

Israel’s assault on Gaza, as pointed out by analyst Nathan Thrall in the New York Times, was not triggered by Hamas’ rockets directed at Israel but by Israel’s determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy.

This is true of the latest cease-fire as well. According to Thrall, Hamas is now seeking through violence what it should have obtained through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. “Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets.” It is not only Hamas supporters, but many Gazans, perhaps a majority, who believe it is worth paying a heavy price to change a disastrous status quo.

But on July 12, as noted in The Times of Israel by its editor, David Horovitz, Netanyahu made clear that he has no interest in a genuine two-state solution. As Horovitz puts it, “the uncertainties were swept aside … And nobody will ever be able to claim in the future that [Netanyahu] didn’t tell us what he really thinks. He made it explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.” The IDF, Netanyahu said, would remain permanently in the West Bank. During the Kerry-sponsored negotiations, he rejected out of hand the American proposal that U.S. and international forces be stationed on the Israeli-Palestinian border, which he insisted would remain permanently under the IDF’s control.

Why will he not allow it? Why did he undermine Kerry’s round of peace talks? Why is he inciting against the Palestinian unity government? Why does he continue to expand illegal settlements in the West Bank, and why did he use the tragic kidnapping and killing of three Israelis as a pretext to destroy what institutional political (as opposed to military) presence of Hamas remained in the West Bank?

He’s doing all of these things because, as suggested by Yitzhak Laor in Haaretz, he and his government are engaged in a frenzied effort to eliminate Palestinians as a political entity. Israel’s government is “intent on inheriting it all” by turning the Palestinian people into “a fragmented, marginalized people,” Laor writes. It is what the Israeli scholar Baruch Kimmerling described as “politicide” in a book by that name he wrote in 2006.

We need more articles like this, instead of pathetic posturing from idiots "tired of apologizing for Israel", whose entire spiel consists of "Well what would US do if Mexico is firing rockets??" or "Where's the outrage for Syria??", effectively obfuscating the underlying problem of settlements, siege and occupation.