I am not smearing you. You have facts in front of you and yet you decide to argue that you are scientist and as such, cannot accept them.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]
- Thread starter L0st Id3ntity
- Start date
- Status
I am not smearing you. You have facts in front of you and yet you decide to argue that you are scientist and as such, cannot accept them.
"Cool story, after going thorough the links, alot of it is a nicely weaved thread to say "israel started"
- There is no actual proof hamas did/did not have involvement with the murder of the 3 kids, not published.
- The source for the "gag order" over the press is a clear lie, the press did not know the guys were dead until the army found the bodies, period, the gag order revolved around the issue that the press felt it should be able to say "we think the boys are dead" but were instructed to say "the boys might be alive"
- Israel is allowed to rearrest shalit prisoners if they can prove they have broken their release agreement, its not like they had immunity. Its up to both sides to prove guilty/not i did not see any proof one way or another. Moreover, its portrayed as if all hamas wants is his precious prisoners, there are bigger issues demanded.
- Why does it place that the planes bombed before rockets firing in the sentence, and does not place it in a logical order.
This is not to say israel didint start, but seriously, cool story."
My comments on the post, i did not refute the facts, i just claimed it to be biased, and accuse its write for not building it properly.
If someone came here and wrote that hamas started the conflict by killing the 3 israelis, ill call him for his bullshit just the same.
Heh, good spot.
Yeah, of course it's a collection of posts that would mostly pin the blame on Israel. Sure, I agree with you on that. But taking into account the historical context, taking in the last 30 or 40 years, Israel has not be proactive in making a deal and as a result the only real conclusion we can draw is that they they have an ulterior motive for not pursuing any realistic pathway to a solution. But to suggest that both parties are equally to blame is wrong, because they aren't.
Let's take it further than that and hypothetically say "both parties are equally to blame". Does that excuse israel's current indiscriminate killing of non-combatants? No. Does it even unilaterally allow them to perform collective punishment on the suspects, their families or literally anyone even remotely close to them both from a relationship and location perspective? Absolutely not but they're doing it anyway and that is what is indefensible.
The immediate response is of course "but hamas". Except that nobody, here especially, is defending hamas.
why do the pro isreali supports simply deflect from current topics to talking about something irrelevant.
give land back to mexico or give land back to native americans etc etc...
it makes their argument even weaker.
What? Didn't Israel give the Sinai mountains back to Egypt, which is filled with oil for peace ? Didn't they retreat from the West Bank to make a truth with Jordan?
Hamas and their propaganda hate is all to blame. Ofc, Israel could have done better, but it's still a conflict, a war, that will cost civilian lives no doubt.
When both parties are ready to kill children in the name of "self-defence", yeah, they kind of are.
You must have not been around during Operation Cast Lead, because if you were, you wouldn't say something so myopic and asanine. There was an objective amount of terror and death that was carried out by one party. Just like now. You disgrace the victims by even claiming both parties are equally to blame. Equally to blame.... good lord. What a fucking joke. Do you even live on this planet?
Child murderers and their vile little cheerleaders. I wish there was a hell. This is absolutely maddening.
Indeed. Even if we are to agree on an equivalency, that only means that Israel and Hamas both need to stop acting like fuckwits.
That is a gross oversimplification.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-gaza-conflict-2014/1.606908 Israel TV authority bans ad naming children killed in Gaza as "politically controversial"
I was, and it was an atrocity. But let's not pretend like Hamas hasn't bombed schoolbuses or comitted suicide attacks with mass casualties now, okay?
It might be, but it's where I and most draw a line when it comes to this dick-measuring contest. If you are ready to outright murder children, I don't give a shit about where your allegiances lie, or how right you are in your cause, you murder children.
Hamas fires at Israel, Israel fires at Hamas, etc etc. This cycle has been going on for decades and in terms of finding a resolution, we're in the exact same spot as we were in the nineteen-goddamn-seventies, the only thing that has changed are the weapons. After decades of pissing at each other, isn't it time to, I don't know, try something else for a change? Y'know, just for the fuck of it. Or at least for the children. Imagine the twisted world image they are growing up with. The "I lost a friend to them THEY MUST ALL DIE"-sentiment works great in actionflicks by Michael Bay and all, but in real life, there are no big-ass explosions you walk away with while holding a Victoria's Secret model, so the chances of "killing them all that will teach them a lesson"-mantra actually succeeding, regardless of which side you're on, are also pretty fucking slim.
Bolded = Hamas.
So what is the motive?
Israel pulled out of Gaza, got Hamas, tunnels, rockets, kidnappings. That's the cause of the blockade, by the way. What exactly is in it for Israel to be doing this? If they weren't attacked by Hamas in Gaza why would they care bout blockades and all the rest?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Israel denies the people of Gaza the basic political right of self-determination. Israel would rather that a Palestinian nation-state didn't exist, and does as much as it can geopolitically to prevent that from happening. That's always been a cause for violence - the right to have the nation for yourself is a very basic one and for many people a very important one, which has inspired countless conflicts through-out history, from the Eighty Years War between the Dutch and the Spanish, the American Revolutionary War, the Greek War of Independence, and many others. To prevent the Palestinians trying to engage in warfare on a more open scale, or to avoid constant guerrilla warfare, Israel institutes the blockades. So, yes - Israel's blockade is in response to potential violence coming from Palestine, but Palestine's violence is motivated by the fact Israel occupies their land, and denies them statehood. Israel is the primary instigator in this situation.
deathkiller
Member
The motives vary between each political party within Israel and over time. The current Israel government relies in parties that want an Apartheid-like system with the Palestinians having autonomous government over an small part of the West Bank and Gaza but without the same rights as Israel citizens, this is what Israel proposed to the Palestinians in 1982 https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/Israeldoc1.html .
The current PM doesn't mind a Palestinian state without military and limited rights but even that would be too much for his allies so any negotiation is doomed with the current Israel government.
Regardless this if Hamas renounced to fight Israel forever the blockade would eventually be removed. If this happened some Israelis would provably want to have settlements in Gaza again though.
Hamas was formed in reaction to the existence of Israel, which only wants a nation of it's own.
Israel gave Gaza self governance back in 1994 and pulled out it's settlers unilaterally in 2005.
Gaza doesn't really have self governance does it? It has absolutely none of the normal trappings of a modern state, and it tends to get it's infrastructure bombed on the prevailing winds of the Israeli domestic political system. You can argue that Hamas are daft to play along with the Israeli provocation (not keeping its side of negotiated ceasefires, random crackdown on it's legally questionable at best blockade) , but you have to be either wilfully ignorant or simply a shrill not to see that escalations in the rocket attacks are typically triggered by Israeli behaviour.
If you still think this is about rockets and not about an attempt to discredit or destroy the unity government which the Israeli's are dead set again then you've not been paying attention.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Israel has a nation of its own now. Of course Hamas was founded after Israel was - there wasn't a need for Palestinian liberation until Israel occupied their borders illegally. Limited authority in an area which still existed under a blockade is not equivalent to statehood.
I guess under some definition you could call what they have self-governence, but with all the limitations imposed on them, I'm tempted to say that a university student body has more control over their direction than what Israel permits Gaza.
Quit giving dash attention. Every day it seems he comes into this thread spewing his biased, one-sided nonsense and then when someone finally decides it's gotten old enough, they go to the trouble of writing up a long post or a series of long posts sourcing everywhere where he is wrong. Dash then runs away and then re-emerges in a day or two to start the cycle all over again.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Depends which papers you read, I suppose. Der Spiegel has quite a few articles on their website.
ok so why can't we do this?
Palestinian State with Gaza and West Bank. Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist and pledges no violence towards the State. No military for the state of Palestine. East Jerusalem could be the capital with UN/Netural country oversight for a period of years. Borders go back to 67.
Palestinian State with Gaza and West Bank. Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist and pledges no violence towards the State. No military for the state of Palestine. East Jerusalem could be the capital with UN/Netural country oversight for a period of years. Borders go back to 67.
Absolutely inane.
When you talk of infrastructure.. There was an article on how much concrete was used to make the tunnels. The implication being that could have been used for bomb shelters like the Israelis have, or whatever else.
And again, self governance and unilaterally pulling it's settlers out is not a step towards a modern state?
As for the blockade, everyone seems to leave out that Gaza shares a border with Egypt too. A border that has a barrier up. And why is that.
Israeli provocation leads to the "who started it" debate. I'm of the opinion they each provoke each other constantly. So I'm sure Israel does it's fair share and Hamas returns the favor. Hamas is not daft for the rocket attacks, they are being deliberate and they know what the results will be. They feel like it's working to their advantage.
Vivalaraza
Member
So Israel specifically targeted the UNRWA school and refused them a window to get people out.
Self defense folks!
Self defense folks!
eot
Banned
Because Israel isn't in a desperate situation, they don't need to give up the settlements so they won't.
That's much of what Hamas wants and/or has already proposed….
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=121942978&postcount=1167
Their requests along with their agreement of the 67 borders.
- Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
- Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
- Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
- Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
- Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
- Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.
- International forces on the borders.
- Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.
- Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
- Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
Maninthemirror
Banned
So basically Israel has to go back to 1967 border and all Palestinians will drop their arms ?
Funny..I would agree to most of this and I'm a big Israeli supporter(friends of idf and my ex is a dual citizen. I think the blockade would need to be visited. Especially, with ships of Syrian/Iranian weapons coming in. I could get behind a dual Israeli/Palestinian group working together to inspect ships.
I would imagine because Egypt is in the process of fighting the Muslim Brotherhood, after deposing them (do I have my order of events right?) and The Muslim Brotherhood has ties with Hamas. Doesn't Israel throw a fit whenever Egypt has the border open?
Again it is late so my recollection might be off.
Also, although you never replied, yeah, not proof that Hamas uses human shields.
Among other things, the 1967 border cuts Israel off from Jerusalem. They'll never go for it.
Not to mention all the Jewish settlements. But hopefully a modified version would work. Maybe.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
The tunnels are not just for sneaking in military equipment, though. They're used to get food, goats, medicine, equipment and other necessities into Gaza, given that Israel won't allow hundreds of basic, every day items across the border. The tunnels are a vital part of the Gazan economy when 80% of the people living there have been forced under the international poverty line. Those tunnels are maintained because they have to be - they are an economic lifeline. it's not much use building bomb shelters if you end up dying in them because of a lack of the necessary medicines, or starving because of a lack of food.
As many people have pointed out, the amount of 'self-governance' Gaza had was incredibly limited. I acknowledge that at the very least, it is progress, but to hold that up as the emblem of progress and say "well, we've done enough now, that's okay" is insulting. This is not enough when women and children are dying.
Two reasons. Firstly, the dictatorship in Egypt is widely opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood, with whom Hamas has organizational links. Secondly, Egypt is one of the largest recipients of United States military aid after, guess who, Israel, and has a vested interested in doing what the United States wants. In the event that a two-state solution is established and accepted by Israel, then the United States has no reason to want Egypt to maintain the border controls.
Also, the fact Egypt also has a border up doesn't make it okay for Israel to do the same. Yes, Egypt has a blockade as well... but Egypt is a military dictatorship which overthrew a democratically elected government, was involved in mass execution of the political opposition, and has no regard for civil, political or legal rights. Meanwhile, Israel is supposedly a Western democracy who engages with human rights. That means Israel is held to a higher standard than Egypt.
But, even if you think this is unfair, you shouldn't need the rest of the West to point out what Israel is doing is wrong. At the point you're saying, "hey look, Egypt does this too!", you should really be asking yourself "is Egypt the sort of country we want to be compared to/".
Hamas has observed the ceasefire for the last two years. The only thing they did to 'provoke' Israel this time was attempt to form a Unity administration with Fatah.
Well I didn't spell out my idea so well,but Jerusalem would still be capital of Israel and part could be for Palestine. I would have to have some neutral observers for many years to make it work.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Most modern Israeli settlements are illegal . It would not cut Israel from jeruselum it would only give back the arab quarter to Palestinians and split the city into its ethnic quarters
Ah, well Crabs post explains why that probably is.
At a minimum because Israel refuses to even consider giving back East Jerusalem.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
he's not even telling the truth. The 1967 borders give Israel contiguous access to Jerusalem.
Yeah kinda what I figured. I asked her and the guys some time ago the same question and all of them agreed with the exception of Jerusalem. I was surprised that one of them agreed as much as he did being he fought in Lebanon in the 80s.
Sometimes you have to make concessions if you want something like peace.
It will happen, it's moving towards it, but in a very very slow and bloody pace, but there are no current real forces to bring this.
- Israel has an aggressive government and consist of a majority of people that while accept the 2 state solution, are by no means motivated to make it happen, and consists of quite a few members that publicly speak against it and behind the stage hurt the process. Israel had 3-4 former governments that were pushing for it, but by the time things are ready to get progressed the israeli leader is murdered, or goes into come, or is impeached, or PA use force to try and get more, and end up getting nothing but a right wing government next election.
- Palestinians are divided right now, their united collision formed now is mostly hollow, and would need time and real effort to form itself. PLO led by abu mazen who as it seems truly wants it, but does not have the power on his side to bring it. He would need to regain real grounds back in gaza, and hamas would have to take measures to prove its moving on from terrorism to more political legitimacy, as it has taken away allot from the palestenian legitimacy as not only israel but most nations view it badly and withhold support because of them.
- USA would need to be a big backing force to this process and the obama administration is not viewed as really invested in ending this conflict at this specific point, it is trying though.
The UN like talking about our region, but they do very little in forming an actual resolve to intervene, provide a security force of their own to provide security to the area etc.
Only a small portion of it, or East Jerusalem. In other words, it'd be divided up with the majority of it going to Israel. Or they could just go with the UN 47 plan of having the entirety of Jerusalem as part of an international regime and of joint ownership.
robertsan21
Member
It's sad that this kind of evil can still exist on this earth. US needs to step up and not support this crime against humanity!
god damn it and they still using human shield crap to justifies the killing
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked