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[Mr.Sumal]

god damn it and they still using human shield crap to justifies the killing

15 dead and 200 injured. Its absolutely despicable. UN even gave IDF the exact co ordinates of this school.

 

[marrec]

15 dead and 200 injured. Its absolutely despicable. UN even gave IDF the exact co ordinates of this school.

Wait, is that the abandoned school where they found a bunch of shells? I know it had two other schools on either side of it... did the IDF shell the surrounding schools? If so... WTF.

 

[Kenshin001]

why do the pro isreali supports simply deflect from current topics to talking about something irrelevant.

give land back to mexico or give land back to native americans etc etc...

it makes their argument even weaker.

It was in the context of the poster saying, "What if Mexico's land was taken?" Mexico's land was taken. Not sure how it makes any argument weaker. I don't expect any American or Canadian or Australian to support the return of land that was occupied and settled. Many Israelis feel the same way.

 

[Maninthemirror]

First Israel tells Palestinians go get out of the way then blocks them from leaving Gaza then bombs them

Wow

 

[Zen]

It was in the context of the poster saying, "What if Mexico's land was taken?" Mexico's land was taken. Not sure how it makes any argument weaker. I don't expect any American or Canadian or Australian to support the return of land that was occupied and settled. Many Israelis feel the same way.

Although I am sure that the people who lean far more towards Israel have noticed some blind spots of those who disagree with them, I have yet to see anyone who seems to take Israel's side even acknowledge the issue of the settlements.

 

[Atrophis]

First Israel tells Palestinians go get out of the way then blocks them from leaving Gaza then bombs them

Wow

UNRWA Spokesman Chris Gunness says UN refugee agency attempted to coordinate 'a window for civilians' to leave shelter with IDF, but was rejected. (Haaretz)

So it's even worse. They knew civilians were there, they rejected their request to leave and then shelled them without warning. But its not a war crime, honest governor.

 

[Partial Gamification]

It was in the context of the poster saying, "What if Mexico's land was taken?" Mexico's land was taken. Not sure how it makes any argument weaker. I don't expect any American or Canadian or Australian to support the return of land that was occupied and settled. Many Israelis feel the same way.

The question is, how acceptable would the forced removal of indigenous peoples be if they were not portrayed as godless savages? What if the slaughter was captured with a twitter or information dissemination network like we have today?

Mexico was a Spanish colony. It does not reflect the Palestinian struggle.

Same thing with trees. USA has around .01% of the old growth it did back in 1800. Brazil says, "you cut down forests for agricultural lands, this is what we need, and so how dare you suggest burning thousands of acres of Amazon every minute is wrong." The environmental movement, civil rights movements, were really established in the second-half of the Twentieth Century. This does not absolve the USA from its crimes, as it does not justify Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

In the Chicago World's fair, around 1904, there was a display along the lines of "human progress." Dark black Congo African, to lighter brown skin tones, and finally the "yellow Asian" before the pinnacle of God's creation: the whites. That is how it sounds when I heard "the Palestinians are not people, not deserving of the same rights as, or intrinsically inferior to Israelis."

 

[Dash27]

The tunnels are not just for sneaking in military equipment, though. They're used to get food, goats, medicine, equipment and other necessities into Gaza, given that Israel won't allow hundreds of basic, every day items across the border. The tunnels are a vital part of the Gazan economy when 80% of the people living there have been forced under the international poverty line. Those tunnels are maintained because they have to be - they are an economic lifeline. it's not much use building bomb shelters if you end up dying in them because of a lack of the necessary medicines, or starving because of a lack of food.



As many people have pointed out, the amount of 'self-governance' Gaza had was incredibly limited. I acknowledge that at the very least, it is progress, but to hold that up as the emblem of progress and say "well, we've done enough now, that's okay" is insulting. This is not enough when women and children are dying.



Two reasons. Firstly, the dictatorship in Egypt is widely opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood, with whom Hamas has organizational links. Secondly, Egypt is one of the largest recipients of United States military aid after, guess who, Israel, and has a vested interested in doing what the United States wants. In the event that a two-state solution is established and accepted by Israel, then the United States has no reason to want Egypt to maintain the border controls.

Also, the fact Egypt also has a border up doesn't make it okay for Israel to do the same. Yes, Egypt has a blockade as well... but Egypt is a military dictatorship which overthrew a democratically elected government, was involved in mass execution of the political opposition, and has no regard for civil, political or legal rights. Meanwhile, Israel is supposedly a Western democracy who engages with human rights. That means Israel is held to a higher standard than Egypt.

But, even if you think this is unfair, you shouldn't need the rest of the West to point out what Israel is doing is wrong. At the point you're saying, "hey look, Egypt does this too!", you should really be asking yourself "is Egypt the sort of country we want to be compared to/".



Hamas has observed the ceasefire for the last two years. The only thing they did to 'provoke' Israel this time was attempt to form a Unity administration with Fatah.

Good post.

As to the tunnels being used for everyday needs I'm sure that is true. From the Israeli perspective though they know that arms are being shipped in from Iran and those arms will then be used against Israeli citizens.

Nobody is saying unilateral withdrawal and self governance is enough, but what has Hamas done in return? What concessions have they made? What has this move gotten Israel? Compare it to Abbas who is at least trying a peaceful solution.

The point I make with Egypt is that it's not just Israel that understands what Hamas is about. After 2005 when Israel again... unilaterally withdrew from Gaza! After a 35+ year occupation. The US and UN gave control over the Rafah Border with UN and Israeli monitors. Just as what's being asked for now. What happened in 2006? Hamas was elected and the fighting begain again. Hamas against the IDF, Hamas against Fatah. Hundreds of rocket attacks from Gaza. By 2007 there were more border restrictions.

As for the cease fire... again I hesitate to get into the who started it routine. I think they both hate each other and are deeply distrustful for good reason on both ends. But yes I think Israel is by far better than Hamas.

Just one recent example of the back and forth:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26451421

Israel says it has seized a ship carrying advanced Iranian weapons made in Syria that was heading towards Gaza.

Israel has accused Iran of arming groups such as Hamas and Lebanon's Hezbollah.

More than 60 rockets fired from the Gaza Strip have hit Israel since the start of last year, Israel says.

Hamas denies that it has fired any rockets since a 2012 ceasefire agreement with Israel, with other Gaza-based groups claiming responsibility.

We found weapons from Iran going to Gaza
Nuh uh they werent ours!
Are too!

We obeyed the cease fire
No you didnt!
We did!
60 rockets!
That wasn't us! It was other rocket people!

Fuck off the both of you. Someone needs to just go in and be a parent and make them figure out the two state solution.

 

[LNBL]

https://twitter.com/nicolealjazeera/status/492295435793358849

Deliberate massacre, that is all it is.

 

[Mr.Sumal]

Wait, is that the abandoned school where they found a bunch of shells? I know it had two other schools on either side of it... did the IDF shell the surrounding schools? If so... WTF.

There's about 69 schools in Gaza that are hosting the displaced which number around 102,000. This incident happened in the Beit Hanoun area. On July 17 & 22, UNRWA investigated two abandoned schools that contained rockets and it went missing in one of the schools.

The IDF got some explaining to do about this shelling on this shelter. They knew it wasn't abandoned and Im sure UNRWA told IDF the whereabouts of the vacant schools

 

[speculawyer]

It was in the context of the poster saying, "What if Mexico's land was taken?" Mexico's land was taken. Not sure how it makes any argument weaker. I don't expect any American or Canadian or Australian to support the return of land that was occupied and settled. Many Israelis feel the same way.

In that case they must accept that they are an apartheid state.

 

[Trojita]

Israel is blaming Hamas for the rocket fire on the UN Shelter in Gaza.

 

[Nokagi]

I was on board with the whole "Israel has the right to defend itself" at the beginning of this but holy shit no longer. They have gone way beyond defending themselves. This is just flat out slaughter of innocent people. Wtf is Israel thinking? What's the strategy here? It just all seems insane to me.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

As to the tunnels being used for everyday needs I'm sure that is true. From the Israeli perspective though they know that arms are being shipped in from Iran and those arms will then be used against Israeli citizens.

This is true, but there are still two very clear points I want to be drawn from this. The first is that saying "we give them concrete, why don't they work on shelters?" is an awful point, and should not be made. The second is a consideration - why is it that a minority of people still chose to ship in arms, despite the fact the tunnels are needed for economic purposes? This should show you how strongly the people of Gaza desire a proper Palestinian state, and why the conflict can never end while Israel continues the occupation and blockade.

Nobody is saying unilateral withdrawal and self governance is enough, but what has Hamas done in return? What concessions have they made? What has this move gotten Israel? Compare it to Abbas who is at least trying a peaceful solution.

Hamas engaged in a two year ceasefire, in which not only did they not once breach the terms largely dictated to them by Israel, but also went out of their way to prevent terrorist splinter groups not actually involved with Hamas from launching rockets either. In this two year period, there is a reasonable chance Israeli deaths were averted by Hamas. This cost them a great deal of political capital within Gaza.

The point I make with Egypt is that it's not just Israel that understands what Hamas is about. After 2005 when Israel again... unilaterally withdrew from Gaza! After a 35+ year occupation. The US and UN gave control over the Rafah Border with UN and Israeli monitors. Just as what's being asked for now. What happened in 2006? Hamas was elected and the fighting begain again. Hamas against the IDF, Hamas against Fatah. Hundreds of rocket attacks from Gaza. By 2007 there were more border restrictions.

Given how close Yasser Arafat had come to achieving something similar to the two-state solution only a few years before at Camp David, the fact that the best Israel could do was withdraw (not even end the blockade!), and left the Gazans in abject poverty and countless dead with no serious reparation system, you can understand why people might elect Hamas. I don't condone Hamas firing rockets, but I can understand why they do. This is not a recently started conflict, this has lasted decades and the Palestinian death toll just grows and grows and becomes ever more disproportionate. Were I a young Palestinian man, denied any economic opportunity, who has probably had friends or even family members killed by Israeli offensives, and seen statehood come so close and yet be denied so cruelly, and possibly swayed by rumours that Israel assassinated the man who came closest to peace, I might be tempted by radicals and rockets. After all, nothing else has worked - Israel continues to oppress me as they have done since the day of my birth.

As for the cease fire... again I hesitate to get into the who started it routine. I think they both hate each other and are deeply distrustful for good reason on both ends. But yes I think Israel is by far better than Hamas.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26451421



We found weapons from Iran going to Gaza
Nuh uh they werent ours!
Are too!

We obeyed the cease fire
No you didnt!
We did!
60 rockets!
That wasn't us! It was other rocket people!

Fuck off the both of you. Someone needs to just go in and be a parent and make them figure out the two state solution.

Let's take a fairly reasonable metric for "badness", shall we? I think we'd probably both agree civilians deaths are bad. Israel has killed far more civilians than Hamas ever has. But, okay, Israel has higher capabilities, maybe Hamas would have killed just as many with that sort of weaponry. Let's take a different metric - the ratio of civilians killed compared to soldiers. Israel has killed far more civilians compared to soldiers than Hamas ever has. Israel is the one enforcing a blockade, Israel is the one killing more people, Israel is the one allowing illegal settlements in Palestinian land, Israel is the one completely destroying schools and hospitals, Israel is the one denying access to medicine - this does not look like an equivalent picture to me. There is a reason why every developed nation in the world bar the United States sees Israel as the clear aggressor in this conflict.

This is not analogous to two rowdy children. In this analogy, Israel is an adult beating a child.

 

[nib95]

I was on board with the whole "Israel has the right to defend itself" at the beginning of this but holy shit no longer. They have gone way beyond defending themselves. This is just flat out slaughter of innocent people. Wtf is Israel thinking? What's the strategy here? It just all seems insane to me.

To further critically damage Palestinian infrastructure, destroy the Palestinian Unity Government, along with potential promise of peace negotiations that might have lent towards the end of Israeli illegal occupation and further land theft, as well as anything resembling a sovereign Palestine, or return to the 67 borders.

 

[funkypie]

It was in the context of the poster saying, "What if Mexico's land was taken?" Mexico's land was taken. Not sure how it makes any argument weaker. I don't expect any American or Canadian or Australian to support the return of land that was occupied and settled. Many Israelis feel the same way.

it is completely different.

america isn't illegally occupying any land, isreal is.

and come on. we're talking in a post world war 2 world, where the majority of countries finally got their shit together and stopped going to war over land.

Nor are any of said people occupied at gun point, have bombs drop on them whenever the Israelis feel like it or their homes bulldozed to make room for settlers.

 

[Dash27]

This is true, but there are still two very clear points I want to be drawn from this. The first is that saying "we give them concrete, why don't they work on shelters?" is an awful point, and should not be made. The second is a consideration - why is it that a minority of people still chose to ship in arms, despite the fact the tunnels are needed for economic purposes? This should show you how strongly the people of Gaza desire a proper Palestinian state, and why the conflict can never end while Israel continues the occupation and blockade.

In the interests of focusing this a bit I'd prefer to just deal with this part because I think it's the key. If you'd like me to answer something else let me know.

Given that Israel withdrew from Gaza and it has had self governance since 1994, it seems to me that the main obstacle now is the blockade. And that's the newest cycle. Israel withdrew, border was relaxed relatively, Fatah provided basic regulation. Fatah gets ousted by Hamas, and Israel clamps down. in 2010/11 Israel and Egypt bow to pressure to ease the blockade... and Hamas re-arms. So Israel clamps down again. And the cycle repeats.

Given the geography involved, what exactly does Hamas want? Just the air and sea blockade to stop? Or they want full access into Israel and Egypt? Or what.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I was on board with the whole "Israel has the right to defend itself" at the beginning of this but holy shit no longer. They have gone way beyond defending themselves. This is just flat out slaughter of innocent people. Wtf is Israel thinking? What's the strategy here? It just all seems insane to me.

Last push to destroy any ounce of Palestinian unification and any future peace negotiations.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

One of the most prestigious medical journals in the world denounces Israel

http://www.thelancet.com/gaza-letter-2014

 

[Bel Marduk]

ok so why can't we do this?

Palestinian State with Gaza and West Bank. Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist and pledges no violence towards the State. No military for the state of Palestine. East Jerusalem could be the capital with UN/Netural country oversight for a period of years. Borders go back to 67.

I think the only fair thing to do at this point is to revert back to the original 1947 partition plan.

 

[yarden24]

I think the only fair thing to do at this point is to revert back to the original 1947 partition plan.

anyone that thinks this is remotely viable has zero understanding of the situation...

 

[Bel Marduk]

anyone that thinks this is remotely viable has zero understanding of the situation...

Well, then, perhaps you would like to explain the situation?

 

[Ashes]

I was on board with the whole "Israel has the right to defend itself" at the beginning of this but holy shit no longer. They have gone way beyond defending themselves. This is just flat out slaughter of innocent people. Wtf is Israel thinking? What's the strategy here? It just all seems insane to me.

Can't Israel find a way of defending itself from all these rockets without having to kill so many innocent people? Like with some defence system or something?

If only such a non-miliant actual defence system existed.

 

[SniperHunter]

i am starting to wonder if those three teenagers were really killed? i think they just needed an excuse to invade and kill Palestinians

 

[Mr.Sumal]

Can't Israel find a way of defending itself from all these rockets without having to kill so many innocent people? Like with some defence system or something?

If only such a non-miliant actual defence system existed.

nvm just read conflicting reports on iron dome

 

[Zen]

i am starting to wonder if those three teenagers were really killed? i think they just needed an excuse to invade an kill Palestinians

They found their bodies, but there is zero proof that Hamas had anything to do with it. It was just a bullshit pretext.

 

[yarden24]

Well, then, perhaps you would like to explain the situation?

israel will not move 3 million people and revert to the 1947 partition plan, even if the goverment would want too, it so not possible in any way,

the only two solutions that are in anyway feasible (and im not talking about politically) are:

a two state solution on the basis of the 1967 borders, including land swaps(again, no chance without the land swaps)

a one state solution where everyone gets citizenship.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

In the interests of focusing this a bit I'd prefer to just deal with this part because I think it's the key. If you'd like me to answer something else let me know.

Given that Israel withdrew from Gaza and it has had self governance since 1994, it seems to me that the main obstacle now is the blockade. And that's the newest cycle. Israel withdrew, border was relaxed relatively, Fatah provided basic regulation. Fatah gets ousted by Hamas, and Israel clamps down. in 2010/11 Israel and Egypt bow to pressure to ease the blockade... and Hamas re-arms. So Israel clamps down again. And the cycle repeats.

Given the geography involved, what exactly does Hamas want? Just the air and sea blockade to stop? Or they want full access into Israel and Egypt? Or what.

It is effectively a lie to describe Gaza as having any real degree of self-governance. Gazais not given the necessary equipment to maintain a police force, it cannot conduct independent economic negotiations, it does not have control over its borders, it cannot sign independent treaties, or engage in essentially any of the activities that most people would consider important parts of being self-governing. What self-governing means in this context is that Israel said "fuck it, just leave them" because they couldn't be bothered to enforce military order any more.

What's more is that you have the sequence of event wrong. Since 2012, Hamas has observed the terms of the ceasefire fully. Israel has not been clamping down again because Hamas has re-armed, or intentionally fired rockets. Israel has instigated this.

You clearly don't want to engage in genuine conversation, because you're asking me what Hamas wants, despite the fact various posters have told you a number of times what Hamas wants. I will quote what RustyNails has said earlier in this thread:

• Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
• Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
• Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
• Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
• Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
• Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.
• International forces on the borders.
• Easing conditions for permits to pray at the al-Aqsa Mosque.
• Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
• Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

This is what Hamas wants, as reported by Haaretz.

 

[SniperHunter]

They found their bodies, but there is zero proof that Hamas had anything to do with it. It was just a bullshit pretext.

they could have given them new identities and shipped em to America or something. I don't really believe anything coming out from Israel

 

[Maninthemirror]

Can't Israel find a way of defending itself from all these rockets without having to kill so many innocent people? Like with some defence system or something?

If only such a non-miliant actual defence system existed.

5000 rockets since the first ever hamas rocket was fired in 2001: 28 israelis killed from rockets

5000 is also approx the number of palestinians who have died in retaliation to those 28 israelis killed

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Well, then, perhaps you would like to explain the situation?

The situation has changed immensely from 1947. The civil war in Mandatory Palestine completely changed the demographics of the area that is now Israel and Palestine. There was a mass exodus of wealthy Palestinians who sought to escape the area, and at the same time a massive influx of formerly European Jewish people who sought to take part in the war for the homeland. If you sought to enforce the '47 borders now, you'd be putting a fair number of essentially completely Jewish areas within the new Palestinian state, which doesn't seem a particularly good idea. The best solution is probably the '67 borders but allowing for each side to negotiate equal area land swaps, and even that will involve a reasonable degree of resettlement of Israeli citizens - although given they knowingly engaged in an illegal settlement process, my sympathy is limited.

 

[Orenhy]

Well, then, perhaps you would like to explain the situation?

If the arab nations (including Palestinians) accepted that when israel received independence, perhaps that's how it would look at this very day. Instead they declared war, lost, and israel ended up annexing nearly all of the region and big parts of the neighbours lands which they gave back to achieve peace. This is actually why i disregard any palestenian claim for any land whatsoever right now, since practically, they were conquered by israel since then until nowdays.
Seems like a reasonable consequence for losing a war.
once a peace treaty is agreed on by both sides, as its right to do, for a nation that lives upon a land.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

If the arab nations (including Palestinians) accepted that when israel received independence, perhaps that's how it would look at this very day. Instead they declared war, lost, and israel ended up annexing nearly all of the region and big parts of the neighbours lands which they gave back to achieve peace. This is actually why i disregard any palestenian claim for any land whatsoever right now, since practically, they were conquered by israel since then until nowdays. that's not to say i think they should not be able to
Seems like a reasonable consequence for losing a war.
once a peace treaty is agreed on by both sides, as its right to do, for a nation that lives upon a land.

"I think it's reasonable that the victor in a war should annex the other nation."

yeah, because fuck Poland, amirite? They don't deserve to exist.

 

[eot]

The situation has changed immensely from 1947. The civil war in Mandatory Palestine completely changed the demographics of the area that is now Israel and Palestine. There was a mass exodus of wealthy Palestinians who sought to escape the area, and at the same time a massive influx of formerly European Jewish people who sought to take part in the war for the homeland. If you sought to enforce the '47 borders now, you'd be putting a fair number of essentially completely Jewish areas within the new Palestinian state, which doesn't seem a particularly good idea. The best solution is probably the '67 borders but allowing for each side to negotiate equal area land swaps, and even that will involve a reasonable degree of resettlement of Israeli citizens - although given they knowingly engaged in an illegal settlement process, my sympathy is limited.

It's not something that would have to happen overnight though. A slow withdrawal would at least be better than a slow expansion.

 

[Coins]

5000 rockets since the first ever hamas rocket was fired in 2001: 28 israelis killed from rockets

5000 is also approx the number of palestinians who have died in retaliation to those 28 israelis killed

Geez, maybe they should stop firing rockets. Lol.

 

[theignoramus]

I was on board with the whole "Israel has the right to defend itself" at the beginning of this but holy shit no longer. They have gone way beyond defending themselves. This is just flat out slaughter of innocent people. Wtf is Israel thinking? What's the strategy here? It just all seems insane to me.

The strategy is to punish everyone in Gaza for allowing Hamas to become such a deeply entrenched social and political entity. It's called the Dahiyah doctrine. The civilian infrastructure being mercilessly bombed or shelled is the incarnation of that doctrine, which holds enemy populations wholly responsible for any militant guerrilla movement the locals support and shelter.
It also happens to be a violation of the laws of war, but with the US protecting Israel from international law, the Israeli military is free to treat Gaza like a free fire zone.

 

[shinobi602]

Wow, the Lancet issues open letter denouncing Israel:

http://www.thelancet.com/gaza-letter-2014

An open letter for the people in Gaza
Paola Manduca, Iain Chalmers, Derek Summerfield, Mads Gilbert, Swee Ang, on behalf of 24 signatories

"We are doctors and scientists, who spend our lives developing means to care and protect health and lives. We are also informed people; we teach the ethics of our professions, together with the knowledge and practice of it. We all have worked in and known the situation of Gaza for years.

On the basis of our ethics and practice, we are denouncing what we witness in the aggression of Gaza by Israel.

We ask our colleagues, old and young professionals, to denounce this Israeli aggression. We challenge the perversity of a propaganda that justifies the creation of an emergency to masquerade a massacre, a so-called "defensive aggression". In reality it is a ruthless assault of unlimited duration, extent, and intensity. We wish to report the facts as we see them and their implications on the lives of the people.

We are appalled by the military onslaught on civilians in Gaza under the guise of punishing terrorists. This is the third large scale military assault on Gaza since 2008. Each time the death toll is borne mainly by innocent people in Gaza, especially women and children under the unacceptable pretext of Israel eradicating political parties and resistance to the occupation and siege they impose.

This action also terrifies those who are not directly hit, and wounds the soul, mind, and resilience of the young generation. Our condemnation and disgust are further compounded by the denial and prohibition for Gaza to receive external help and supplies to alleviate the dire circumstances.

The blockade on Gaza has tightened further since last year and this has worsened the toll on Gaza's population. In Gaza, people suffer from hunger, thirst, pollution, shortage of medicines, electricity, and any means to get an income, not only by being bombed and shelled. Power crisis, gasoline shortage, water and food scarcity, sewage outflow and ever decreasing resources are disasters caused directly and indirectly by the siege..."

Full letter here: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)61044-8/fulltext

 

[RedShift]

If the arab nations (including Palestinians) accepted that when israel received independence, perhaps that's how it would look at this very day. Instead they declared war, lost, and israel ended up annexing nearly all of the region and big parts of the neighbours lands which they gave back to achieve peace. This is actually why i disregard any palestenian claim for any land whatsoever right now, since practically, they were conquered by israel since then until nowdays.
Seems like a reasonable consequence for losing a war.
once a peace treaty is agreed on by both sides, as its right to do, for a nation that lives upon a land.

I... can't actually believe that you think this.

I mean... wow. You are seriously messed up.

 

[Orenhy]

"I think it's reasonable that the victor in a war should annex the other nation."

yeah, because fuck Poland, amirite? They don't deserve to exist.

its not about who deserved what, its about how it works. besides the fact that for israel at 1947 this was an existence war, not an expansion war.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

its not about who deserved what, its about how it works. besides the fact that for israel at 1947 this was an existence war, not an expansion war.

...but that's not how it works. That's literally illegal under international law. The type of war does not change the fact Israel illegally annexed territory. What you said it seriously messed up, to the point I reckon you should probably go away, sit down, and have a think about what you said. You are trying to argue in favour of a principle which would condone the annexation of sovereign territory on the basis of superior force.

 

[funkypie]

I... can't actually believe that you think this.

I mean... wow. You are seriously messed up.

the Palestinians never went to war, other arab states did.

its like france conquering belgium because holland went to war with france.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

the Palestinians never went to war, other arab states did.

its like france conquering belgium because holland went to war with france.

Spoiler

The French actually did this once.

 

[Orenhy]

the Palestinians never went to war, other arab states did.

its like france conquering belgium because holland went to war with france.

You can say that only because they were not an official country to declare war, in all practice manners, they were part of it, and part of the arab league that declared the war.

 

[Kenshin001]

the Palestinians never went to war, other arab states did.

its like france conquering belgium because holland went to war with france.

What do you think the Palestinians were doing?

 

[yarden24]

the Palestinians never went to war, other arab states did.

its like france conquering belgium because holland went to war with france.

the Palestinian territories were conquered by Egypt and Jordan in 48, in 67 israel conquered the west bank and gaza strip from them

 

[werks]

If the arab nations (including Palestinians) accepted that when israel received independence, perhaps that's how it would look at this very day. Instead they declared war, lost, and israel ended up annexing nearly all of the region and big parts of the neighbours lands which they gave back to achieve peace. This is actually why i disregard any palestenian claim for any land whatsoever right now, since practically, they were conquered by israel since then until nowdays.
Seems like a reasonable consequence for losing a war.
once a peace treaty is agreed on by both sides, as its right to do, for a nation that lives upon a land.

Facing a lifetime of insurgency is also a consequence of conquering and oppressing people. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[MacNille]

"I think it's reasonable that the victor in a war should annex the other nation."

yeah, because fuck Poland, amirite? They don't deserve to exist.

Are you seriously comparing the attack on poland with the Arabic-Israel war of 48? Seriously?

 

[sindbadthesailor]

Wow, the Lancet issues open letter denouncing Israel:

http://www.thelancet.com/gaza-letter-2014

That's pretty cool.

Shame they're going to be "anti-semited" in the mainstream now.

 

[Goliath]

...but that's not how it works. That's literally illegal under international law. The type of war does not change the fact Israel illegally annexed territory. What you said it seriously messed up, to the point I reckon you should probably go away, sit down, and have a think about what you said. You are trying to argue in favour of a principle which would condone the annexation of sovereign territory on the basis of superior force.

The 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria is why it is not illegal. This was what they agreed to achieve piece after 10 months of fighting. The land was won by Israel and the Arab League agreed to for a permanent ceasfire. Of course Jodan and Egypt then took control of the West Bank and Gaza.

So no, there is nothing illegal about how Israel founded it's 1949 boarders.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria is why it is not illegal. This was what they agreed to achieve piece after 10 months of fighting. The land was won by Israel and the Arab League agreed to for a permanent ceasfire. Of course Jodan and Egypt then took control of the West Bank and Gaza.

So no, there is nothing illegal about how Israel founded it's 1949 boarders.

I'm talking about the post-'67 border. In '49 there was no sovereign nation to annex - the area was actually stateless, given the British had abandoned Mandatory Palestine.