UN Shelter in Gaza is hit by Israeli rocket fire leaving several people dead/injured
- Thread starter Trojita
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Its a completely legitimate response. To understand why Hamas is firing rockets is not to condone it. When your land is stolen,economy crippled, family members killed, compatriots arrested and basic human rights violated it is not difficult to understand why the palestinians are so desperate. Israel have consistantly refused the reasonable proposals by Hamas that would help to end the conflict. Their response has been completely disproportionate to the rockets fired.
i.e. no rocket fire is coming from the West Bank and what they get in return is more settlements, checkpoints, and walls.
One thing I don't get is, why fire the rockets in the first place? They aren't going to hurt a technologically superior nation. All it does is make Israel invade.
Unless...maybe they are doing this to force international intervention.
I'm going to read up on it myself thanks. My guess is it's not going to be quite so simple.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
West Band under Fatah has a security cooperation agreement. West Bank still sees the expansion of settlements, collective punishment, destruction of property, mass arrests without charges or due process, military checkpoints, Palestinians killed and displaced weekly. Isreal provides no reason for the people if Gaza to seek an alternative because they can look to the West Bank and see capitulation is met with more oppression.
That is just more rationalizing. The opposite response would be "I don't condone civilian casualties, but what do you expect Israel to do, weather an unending rain of rockets on their civilian population?" I don't think you would accept that explanation.
Again I am going to read up on it myself. This is something too complicated to just take the word of forum posters. There is likely something else going on when Hamas doesn't even recognize the legitimacy of Israel.
If I am wrong then I will have no problem being wrong. I had self-righteousness beaten out of me a while ago.
This was linked a handful of times. It's pretty lengthy but it has some good information you might find useful. It might not answer everything but it's a good place to start.
http://www.vox.com/cards/israel-palestine/intro
Whoa. Not recognizing Israel is not going to solve this. I am going to spend my commute time with some solid Audible audio-books on the subject.
TY I'll print and read on the train.
It is more so PR, they are not required under international law to recognize Israel, and it does not prohibit any deals being made or a settlement being reached (unless Israel mandates it as a condition out of spite).
That is a decent point, but I would counter it by saying that the two scales are not remotely equal, and were I in the shoes of Israel I would handle the situation differently. In the situation of Hamas (who allegedly [would really like some more info on this] honored by a two year cease fire and tried to prevent splinter groups from launching missiles), or the palestinians to be more accurate, I would not have the same breadth of strategic freedom.
Fair. I do approach the wiki with some reservations (I would like to see secondary sources) but at the same time, your post does not mean that those things do not happen. Some of them, at least, I do recall hearing about during the 2006 election. I would be surprised if corruption was not going on, and a heavy authoritarianism streak is sadly very likely as well.
That is a decent point, but I would counter it by saying that the two scales are not remotely equal, and were I in the shoes of Israel I would handle the situation differently. In the situation of Hamas (who allegedly [would really like some more info on this] honored by a two year cease fire and tried to prevent splinter groups from launching missiles), or the palestinians to be more accurate, I would not have the same breadth of strategic freedom.
Fair. I do approach the wiki with some reservations (I would like to see secondary sources) but at the same time, your post does not mean that those things do not happen. Some of them, at least, I do recall hearing about during the 2006 election. I would be surprised if corruption was not going on, and a heavy authoritarianism streak is sadly very likely as well.
The rockets were fired in response to the mass arrests by Israel of Palestinians after the three Israeli civilians were murdered. None of this happens in a vacuum. Israel was terrified of the unity government that was being formed which was sanctioned by the EU and the US. Netanyahu was looking for any reason to destroy it and the Israeli teenagers provided that, even thought there is no evidence Hamas was involved. The rockets don't help the situation at all but Hamas have put forward reasonable proposals to end the conflict which Israel consistantly rejects. Israel blowing children to bits is not very encouraging for them coming to the negotiating table with REASONABLE proposals.
CoolMarquis97
Banned
Excuse me but I'm ignorant on the situation, Why hasn't America or any other country tried to step in or even deploy troops seeing as Israel just keeps killing people?
The US is not the world police.
Plus they are buddies with Israel, even if they don't support this conflict.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
America supports Israel in what they are doing due to AIPAC. Most European countries disapprove, but would rather retain America's friendship.
Self interest, personal agendas, trade relations etc etc etc
Proportionality matters. Leaving aside the fact that fair and reasonable proposals were put forward by the unity government which Israel rejected, The fact is that Hamas rockets do not have the capability to cause the level of destruction that Israel can. One civilian casualty is too much but If Israel wants to try and claim the moral high ground it has to refrain from committing war crimes and be mindful of the damage it does to the Palestinians.
CoolMarquis97
Banned
So basically everyone's forced to let this play out or else they cause bigger problems for themselves?
The thread title should be changed to reflect the fact that it's a tank and not a rocket.
What the fuck?
What the fuck?
Well apparently Israel is claiming it's rocket shot from Hamas that misfired.
Right now we have the IDF saying one thing and the Gaza Health Ministry saying another. It is probably prudent we wait to for more information to come out to determine who fired at the UN building.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I mean, it's not as though America is threatening European nations per se, but Eurpean nations just don't really care that much. After all, at the end of the day, it doesn't really affect them and if they make action against Israel, they have nothing to gain but will probably lose out economically as trade relations with America sour. What's killing Palestine is the money from pro-Israeli lobbyists and the apathy of the global community.
Good point. If the global community cared, this conflict would have been resolved long ago.
Israel also claims every Palestinian civilian casualty is a human shield. I think it's about time we quit believing them.
Ofcourse Israel wouldn't shoot at an UN shelter after the UN started investigating them...
Anyway, pictures started rolling in of the attack.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Another country, sadly.
TheRealTalker
Banned
the IDF graphic saying that Hamas was there will come.... we know it will
AstroNut325
Member
Is there anything WE (i'm in the US) can do about this? Or are the politicians bought and paid for by some pro-Israel lobby?
Do you mind sharing the link to that article?
Has the IDF confirmed that they shot at the UN building?
Partial Gamification
Banned
The problem isn't a lack of caring outside the conflict but within it, on both sides if that isn't clear. International community has demonstrated caring but other things demand attention too, even if this conflict is the seed for many others.
UNRWA isn't a reliable source. Let's wait for the objective findings of the IDF.
The scales are only unequal because Hamas is incapable of inflicting more damage, not that they wouldn't if they could. They're essentially committing war crimes with the sole purpose of provoking war crimes for propaganda purposes to increase their political leverage.
I believe Israel is more morally culpable during peacetime given their "breadth of strategic freedom," but Hamas is currently lowering themselves.
And the list of demands Zen listed on the previous page seem fair and reasonable, but they didn't include the right of return for all refugees. I don't know how many governments would accept that demand in this particular situation.
Attend protests and write letters to your congressman and senator.
TheRealTalker
Banned
Everything is based off of self interest and benefit
What can poor Gazans give to the U.S?
Nothing? Therefore nothing will be done.
Why the hell would they confirm anything. Better to claim that Hamas did it.
Hyperactivity
Banned
41 or 42 vetos. That's the number of the US has used when it comes to Israel, preventing the UN from doing anything in this situation. Iirc, those are more than half of all the vetos used by the UNSC permanent 5, and each or a majority of those cases, it was only the US vetoing
The religious conservative base in the US support israel.
As long as you have those bible thumpers, you will see massive US support for Israel.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
That is exactly correct.
sindbadthesailor
Member
That and they'll try to spin it as more human shield nonsense.
This is war crime.
If it was any other country it would have resolved long ago. As long as Israel can play the big brother card and get the US to veto any resolution even moderately critical of it's actions then nothing will be done.
The typical actions by the International community amount to UNSC resolutions. Here's a list of the US vetos pertaining to the conflict.
Maninthemirror
Banned
do people like bill maher represent that same religious conservative base?
How about the Twitter account of the UN spokesman?
Decide for yourself who's blatantly lying here:
https://twitter.com/ChrisGunness
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
This is ethnic cleansing.
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