UN Shelter in Gaza is hit by Israeli rocket fire leaving several people dead/injured

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I'm so sick of the gross amount of support that the US gives to Israel. As much as we (read: our government) need to just say "Enough is enough, fuck off with this shit Israel," it'll never happen and that frustrates the hell out of me. There's so much blind support and money backing keeping us in this dumb fucking situation.
 
Israel's been hitting UNRWA schools for days, but now that there are mass casualties... lets not jump to conclusions!

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I'm actually all for Israel defending itself, but this is inexcusable. There need to be consequences for this. Sadly there probably won't be any.
 
FelixOrion said:
I'm so sick of the gross amount of support that the US gives to Israel. As much as we (read: our government) need to just say "Enough is enough, fuck off with this shit Israel," it'll never happen and that frustrates the hell out of me. There's so much blind support and money backing keeping us in this dumb fucking situation.
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Why is this the case? Why is the US so blindly in favor of Israel? Are we getting free oil from Israel? Biased trade agreements? Straight cash hand over fist?
 
AstroNut325 said:
Is there anything WE (i'm in the US) can do about this? Or are the politicians bought and paid for by some pro-Israel lobby?
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Kurdel said:
The religious conservative base in the US support israel.

As long as you have those bible thumpers, you will see massive US support for Israel.
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This pretty much shows what happens if you're in a prominent position and try to say or do something, the blowback scales according to what you've done.

Jon Stewart Learns What Happens When You Criticize Israel
 
I used to support Israels right to defend itself. You know what - no more. The last few days has completely polarized me opinion.

The murdering scum can burn in hell for all I care. Its outrageous what they are getting away with and I'm sick of politicians using moderate language to describe the rights of wrongs of these scumbags. They are criminals. Just like those who shoot rockets into Israeli land with no regard for whom it hits.
 
AstroNut325 said:
Why is this the case? Why is the US so blindly in favor of Israel? Are we getting free oil from Israel? Biased trade agreements? Straight cash hand over fist?
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Geopolitical capitol and they buy a lot of our arms or money is granted to supply them. It feeds the weapons industrial complex. There are a number of bilateral agreements that make the USA diplomatically honor-bound to affirm Israel's right to defend itself. There has been more money spent on lobbying for Israel than there is lobbying for the Palestinian causes.
 
Can a Fajr 3 rocket from Hamas cause such destruction? Just playing devils advocate, since UN hasnt pointed who did the attack (only a matter of time before IDF is found guilty).
 
AstroNut325 said:
Why is this the case? Why is the US so blindly in favor of Israel? Are we getting free oil from Israel? Biased trade agreements? Straight cash hand over fist?
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Money. The Jewish exodus from Europe was only affordable to relatively wealthy families, which meant that the Jewish-American population was statistically wealthier and better connected than either the remaining Jewish-European population or the average American. Given America's lack of social mobility and the fact entrenched wealth tends to accumulate, the average Jewish-American is disproportionately wealthy when compared to other ethnic and religious groups - it's the same reason that they're disproportionately represented in the sciences, as wealthier family corresponds to better education. A significant number of the Jewish-American population bought into the Zionist idea of a "Jewish homeland", so the American Zionist Committee for Public Affairs was founded, which later spawned the American Israel Public Affairs Committee - AIPAC, a hugely influential lobbyist group which receives a disproportionately large amount of money from an already wealthy donor base. When you're a politician running for election in the United States, the money AIPAC can provide towards your re-election is not something easily turned aside.

This is also probably why Europe isn't as pro-Israel - the Jewish population in developed European countries is actually somewhat poorer than the general population.
 
Maninthemirror said:
Even Bush was better at this at the Israel Palestine conflict
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If you research the drone strikes, there were countless times US military backed off a strike due to the presence of civilians. Lets not pretend US is a saint in these matters, but comparing them to IDF, they very well might be.
 
RustyNails said:
Can a Fajr 3 rocket from Hamas cause such destruction? Just playing devils advocate, since UN hasnt pointed who did the attack (only a matter of time before IDF is found guilty).
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They did. See Chris Gunness' tweets a few posts above. He directly called it "Israeli fire".
 
Sothpaw said:
Voting has consequences. Voting in Hamas has extremely severe consequences. Note I never said I agree with what is going on, just stating a fact.
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What are you even trying to say?
That they should get punished for not voting like Israel wanted?
 
Deified Data said:
A thread like this is just about the only instance where you could say something like this and not get banned, I think. Amazing.
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Might as well start talking about how pharmaceutical company lobbying doesn't actually help halt FDA reform, tobacco company lobbying help halt anti-tobacco measures, etc, etc.

Lobbying isn't a major thing in the US, you know

PRo Israelis would be the better term by far though
 
RustyNails said:
Can a Fajr 3 rocket from Hamas cause such destruction? Just playing devils advocate, since UN hasnt pointed who did the attack (only a matter of time before IDF is found guilty).
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A Fajr 3 can cause such a destruction, but it's the shorter range (compared to the -5) that would make it more suspect.
 
RustyNails said:
Can a Fajr 3 rocket from Hamas cause such destruction? Just playing devils advocate, since UN hasnt pointed who did the attack (only a matter of time before IDF is found guilty).
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I'll say it again, it's the 4th time a UN shelter has been hit in this conflict, the IDF have attacked UN shelters in previous conflicts. If the IDF don't mind blowing the shit out of a hospital what makes a UN shelter suddenly verboten.

On the BBC 6 o'clock news a Israeli tank shell hit immediately outside the school as they were filming.
 
E92 M3 said:
Of course it's the rich Jews...these blanket statements covering a whole group of people are not allowed on here, and I don't even a thread such as this should make it ok.
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For donors of AIPAC?

Rich people of the jewish faith are most likely the main dinors for a lobby group aimed at promoting zionism around the world.
 
Deified Data said:
Guess GAF is just tone deaf to the "Rich Jew" dog-whistling today in light of events.

Nevermind, carry on.
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Don't you need money for lobbying? He mentioned that rich Jews in Israel and the US are lobbying for Israel. Well, in the end I don't care. I'm not from the US, I don't know what's offensive for you guys is.
 
Kurdel said:
For donors of AIPAC?

Rich people of the jewish faith are most likely the main dinors for a lobby group aimed at promoting zionism around the world.
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Yes, but it deserves a very careful stress that a) not all Jewish people are wealthy, and b) not all Jewish people support Israel (thankfully, far from it!). Tarring everyone is unacceptable, the blame must be portioned both accurately and fairly. I know you know this and I know this, but it's still important to demonstrate we're aware because of the historical context.
 
E92 M3 said:
Of course it's the rich Jews...these blanket statements covering a whole group of people are not allowed on here, and I don't even a thread such as this should make it ok.
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But blanket statements saying everyone in Gaza deserves to be target of war crimes based on how they voted are apparently fair game.
 
kamorra said:
Don't you need money for lobbying? He mentioned that rich Jews in Israel and the US are lobbying for Israel. Well, in the end I don't care. I'm not from the US, I don't know what's offensive for you guys is.
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I think he jus misread it as being a "blame the jews" conspiracy post, when in fact it was a "blame the rich and unlimited free speech they have".

Crab said:
Yes, but it deserves a very careful stress that a) not all Jewish people are wealthy, and b) not all Jewish people support Israel (thankfully, far from it!). Tarring everyone is unacceptable, the blame must be portioned both accurately and fairly. I know you know this and I know this, but it's still important to demonstrate we're aware because of the historical context.
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Right, and there are jewish lobby groups out there who are not Zionist.

werks said:
But blanket statements saying everyone in Gaza deserves to be target of war crimes based on how they voted are apparently fair game.
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That is a horrible way to contribute to the conversation, and leads to shitty threads filled with drive by pot-shots.
 
Crab said:
Yes, but it deserves a very careful stress that a) not all Jewish people are wealthy, and b) not all Jewish people support Israel (thankfully, far from it!). Tarring everyone is unacceptable, the blame must be portioned both accurately and fairly. I know you know this and I know this, but it's still important to demonstrate we're aware because of the historical context.
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But isn't that, especially part a, a given? How in the world is it unacceptable to mention that there are probably some rich Jews in Israel and the US who are lobbying for this shit? Obviously not every single Jew is rich or a fucking warmonger cunt.
 
Maninthemirror said:
Much more proactive at this. Obama gives a statement which is always: I'm concerned for lives lost on BOTH sides but Israel has the right to defend itself
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I'm not going to debate a vague point. Bush messed up, in my eyes, with the Iranians and putting them in the Axis of Evil while they were secretly working with us. Lead to IEDs being manufactured in Iran and a proxy war in Iraq. Could have arguably acted to support the idea that militant actions were more acceptable [in Gaza], but if you want to call that a stretch I'd concede without looking deeper into it.
Palestinian militant actions escalated in the Gaza Strip following the overwhelming election to government of the Islamic political party Hamas in 2005 and 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza–Israel_conflict
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AIPAC is less influential than the arms industry.
The American Israel Public Affairs Committee spent $87,899,089 on advocacy in 2008 — significantly more than any of 212 other religion-related advocacy organizations examined by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.
[...]
http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-nu...on-related-advocacy-groups-in-washington-d-c/
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The value of deliveries of U.S. defense articles and services to Taiwan totaled $4.3 billion in the 2004-2007 period and $2.9 billion in 2008-2011. Among customers worldwide, Taiwan ranked fourth (behind Israel, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) in 2004-2007 and fifth (behind Saudi Arabia, Egypt Israel, and Australia) in 2008-2011.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30957.pdf
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I just grabbed that report but the point is there is at least ten times the money going into arms as there is money going toward lobbying [just to Israel]. Maybe there is more bang for your buck lobbying, pardon the pun.

The American weapons sales total was an “extraordinary increase” over the $21.4 billion in deals for 2010, the study found, and was the largest single-year sales total in the history of United States arms exports. The previous high was in fiscal year 2009, when American weapons sales overseas totaled nearly $31 billion.

A worldwide economic decline had suppressed arms sales over recent years. But increasing tensions with Iran drove a set of Persian Gulf nations — Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Oman — to purchase American weapons at record levels.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/w...gn-arms-sales-reach-66-3-billion-in-2011.html
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Again, Bush screwed a real chance to change relations without force.

ob-ut309_0927bo_g_201nbk2v.jpg
 
Why on earth would a nation that is virtually occupied vote in an extremist party with it's main promise being independence? This certainly never happened anywhere else in the world such as Africa, Latin America, or East Asia. It's almost like extreme oppression causes extreme political parties to take stronghold.
 
kamorra said:
But isn't that, especially part a, a given? How in the world is it unacceptable to mention that there are probably some rich Jews in Israel and the US who are lobbying for this shit? Obviously not every single Jew is rich or a fucking warmonger cunt.
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I know this and you know this, but think about the context: "Rich Jewish conspiracy" is a common dog-whistle for centuries' worth of racist groups and horrendous acts. If I were Jewish, I'd feel at least somewhat wary about anyone saying something even slightly similar. Demonstrating that you have a legitimate concern in a way that shows you understand their position is pretty important in any such debate.
 
Crab said:
Yes, but it deserves a very careful stress that a) not all Jewish people are wealthy, and b) not all Jewish people support Israel (thankfully, far from it!). Tarring everyone is unacceptable, the blame must be portioned both accurately and fairly. I know you know this and I know this, but it's still important to demonstrate we're aware because of the historical context.
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Good thing his statement didn't imply EITHER on of those things. Saying "Rich jews" doesn't imply all jewish people are wealthy...Nor does it include ALL rich jewish people either. You're making a relatively simple statement into something incendiary when it wasn't
 
Partial Gamification said:
I'm not going to debate a vague point. Bush messed up, in my eyes, with the Iranians and putting them in the Axis of Evil while they were secretly working with us. Lead to IEDs being manufactured in Iran and a proxy war in Iraq. Could have arguably acted to support the idea that militant actions were more acceptable [in Gaza], but if you want to call that a stretch I'd concede without looking deeper into it.



AIPAC is less influential than the arms industry.



I just grabbed that report but the point is there is at least ten times the money going into arms as there is money going toward lobbying [just to Israel]. Maybe there is more bang for your buck lobbying, pardon the pun.



Again, Bush screwed a real chance to change relations without force.

ob-ut309_0927bo_g_201nbk2v.jpg
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Defense industry isnt responsible for policy. Defense spending is just pork. AIPAC lobbying is directly responsible for so much strife in the middle east. AIPAC is super powerful.

Among the best-known critical works about AIPAC is The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, by University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer and Harvard University Kennedy School of Government professor Stephen Walt. In the working paper and resulting book they accuse AIPAC of being "the most powerful and best known" component of a larger pro-Israel lobby that distorts American foreign policy. They write:[54]

AIPAC's success is due to its ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it. ... AIPAC makes sure that its friends get strong financial support from the myriad pro-Israel PACs. Those seen as hostile to Israel, on the other hand, can be sure that AIPAC will direct campaign contributions to their political opponents. ... The bottom line is that AIPAC, which is a de facto agent for a foreign government, has a stranglehold on the U.S. Congress. Open debate about U.S. policy towards Israel does not occur there, even though that policy has important consequences for the entire world.
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BeatResetsTheWorld said:
Good thing his statement didn't imply EITHER on of those things. Saying "Rich jews" doesn't imply all jewish people are wealthy...Nor does it include ALL rich jewish people either. You're making a relatively simple statement into something incendiary when it wasn't
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No? I think what he said was basically okay? I'm just saying why others, like Deified Data, feel wary.
 
Crab said:
Money. The Jewish exodus from Europe was only affordable to relatively wealthy families, which meant that the Jewish-American population was statistically wealthier and better connected than either the remaining Jewish-European population or the average American. Given America's lack of social mobility and the fact entrenched wealth tends to accumulate, the average Jewish-American is disproportionately wealthy when compared to other ethnic and religious groups - it's the same reason that they're disproportionately represented in the sciences, as wealthier family corresponds to better education. A significant number of the Jewish-American population bought into the Zionist idea of a "Jewish homeland", so the American Zionist Committee for Public Affairs was founded, which later spawned the American Israel Public Affairs Committee - AIPAC, a hugely influential lobbyist group which receives a disproportionately large amount of money from an already wealthy donor base. When you're a politician running for election in the United States, the money AIPAC can provide towards your re-election is not something easily turned aside.

This is also probably why Europe isn't as pro-Israel - the Jewish population in developed European countries is actually somewhat poorer than the general population.
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sigh...

That is not true. It was not just "Rich Jews" that could afford to go to Israel and fled Europe. Heck look at the demographics, over 1 million of the Jews in Israel came from the former USSR. I guess they must be those 1 million "Rich Jews" that managed to amass a massive amount of wealth while living in a country that oppressed them and had quotas as to how many Jews they would allow to work or get an education. I know what Russian Jews went through and they didn't come out rich. They sold everything they owned, were only allowed to take a bag or two of their stuff and fled to Israel (because it was easier to get in then America). Then of course just like every other immagrant, they build a life their and send for their family and friends to come and the next batch of immigrants doesn't have to have much to start with because they have support already established in Israel.

That's the story of how European Jews fled to Israel. A typical story of immagration where many poor people who lost most of what they had after WWII decided to start over in a new place. Not a story of millions of wealthy people leaving the countries they amassed their wealth from.

The reason we support Israel (U.S.A) is because we helped form it. We were involved in it's creation and so far they are the ONLY stable government that is also our ally and has western ideals. On top of that next to the U.S.A they are second for technology company start ups and buy and sell weapons technology with us. They are an important ally in a part of the world that hates us but has natural resources we still want. It not because "Rich Jews" lobby? It's because supporting Israel benefits America while supporting the other Arab countries have led to unstable relations and hatred.
 
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