• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lets go one by one through these claims ill try to capture his points, and provide criticism if needed.

1) Israel is exercising its right to self-defense.
writer claims : "Israel does have the right to defend itself against rocket attacks, but it must do so in accordance with occupation law and not other laws of war. Occupation law ensures greater protection for the civilian population. The other laws of war balance military advantage and civilian suffering."
Gaza is not militarily occupied, west Jerusalem is. for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories

2) Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
writer claims : " Israel maintained effective control of the Gaza Strip and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations."
Sorry, as writer claimed in first point, israel has a right to defend itself, this is basically a semantics copy of his first claim.

3) This Israeli operation, among others, was caused by rocket fire from Gaza.
writer claims : "Israel claims that its current and past wars against the Palestinian population in Gaza have been in response to rocket fire. Empirical evidence from 2008, 2012 and 2014 refute that claim"
Then he goes on about other cases where israel broke truces and other events preceding this event that point to israel for initiating this war.
according to this his claim should be "i think israel started this war" not "This Israeli operation, among others, was caused by rocket fire from Gaza." Because in fact israel initiated its operations is response to the rocket fires. it Could be true israel looked for this war, this both remains to be proven, and if so Hamas fell strait for and in a clear illegal manner, some of Israels starting moves were either legal, or debatable and require trial, for example, the rearrests of shalit prisoners is legal if israel proves they broke their release terms.

4) Israel avoids civilian casualties, but Hamas aims to kill civilians.
writer claims : "With the use of drones, F-16s and an arsenal of modern weapon technology, Israel has the ability to target single individuals and therefore to avoid civilian casualties. But rather than avoid them, Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians as part of its military operations."
Sorry, but there is yet to be a public weapon that is able to target someone genetic composition, this claim is invalid, in many cases israel decided to target hamas officials they almost always hit civilians while doing it, that's their policy, can argue for or against it, but its bullshit to make it seem as if IDF is what its not. The next point of the author relates to this so we can move on and it should shed light on this -

5) Hamas hides its weapons in homes, mosques and schools and uses human shields.
writer claims:" Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons."
Yes it has, UNRWA CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS, FOR A SECOND TIME, IN ONE OF ITS SCHOOLS - http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools.
Besides like the dozens of ariel pictures provided by THE IDF regarding weapons placement as pictures taken by aeroplanes.

You do realize your counterargument for #5 was mentioned just a few lines in, right? The key detail being that the schools were empty.

And you say #2 just rephrases #1, while ignoring the fact that #2 negates your criticism of #1.
 
Lets go one by one through these claims ill try to capture his points, and provide criticism if needed.

1) Israel is exercising its right to self-defense.
writer claims : "Israel does have the right to defend itself against rocket attacks, but it must do so in accordance with occupation law and not other laws of war. Occupation law ensures greater protection for the civilian population. The other laws of war balance military advantage and civilian suffering."
Gaza is not militarily occupied, west Jerusalem is. for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories

You might want to read your own links. The only entity that disputes that Gaza is occupied by Israel, even after the removal of the settlements and security forces protecting them, is Israel. The UN, the International Courts, HRW, etc. all continue to consider Israel to be an occupying force in all the territories taken in 1967 still controlled by Israel.

Israel can't control not only Gaza's sea ports, airspace, and land access, but also its elections, and be anything but an occupying force. Israel doesn't even maintain that Gaza has any sovereignty, so how can it even be a belligerent in war?

This is all borne out by the wiki article you linked.

Very well, i completely agree israel is occupying the Palestinians, but its not some black and white issue, and its not a military occupation, israel does not rule the civilians and one cannot just go and say "military occupation rules apply" as an easy claim.

It's an occupation in which the occupying power has thrown up its hands and let the occupied rot. It is maintained by military force, and Israel *obviously* retains the right to enter Gaza to capture, kill, or destroy people and things in Gaza at their whim. I'm baffled as to what other occupation it could be other than military.
 
Lets go one by one through these claims ill try to capture his points, and provide criticism if needed.

1) Israel is exercising its right to self-defense.
writer claims : "Israel does have the right to defend itself against rocket attacks, but it must do so in accordance with occupation law and not other laws of war. Occupation law ensures greater protection for the civilian population. The other laws of war balance military advantage and civilian suffering."
Gaza is not militarily occupied, west Jerusalem is. for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories

The Gaza strip is still occupied by Israel. As explained by point two, Israel is in effective control. For example, it sets the taxes for Gaza. It decides who can become a Gaza resident. It (officially) controls both the crossing of goods and people into Gaza. It controls the airspace above it and the waters surrounding it. It may not "militarily occupy" Gaza. But it is in complete control.

2) Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
writer claims : " Israel maintained effective control of the Gaza Strip and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations."
Sorry, as writer claimed in first point, israel has a right to defend itself, this is basically a semantics copy of his first claim.

The point here is that, although Israel claims it granted freedom to Gaza, there is no such thing. Israel still has effective control of Gaza. See what I wrote above..

3) This Israeli operation, among others, was caused by rocket fire from Gaza.
writer claims : "Israel claims that its current and past wars against the Palestinian population in Gaza have been in response to rocket fire. Empirical evidence from 2008, 2012 and 2014 refute that claim"
Then he goes on about other cases where israel broke truces and other events preceding this event that point to israel for initiating this war.
according to this his claim should be "i think israel started this war" not "This Israeli operation, among others, was caused by rocket fire from Gaza." Because in fact israel initiated its operations is response to the rocket fires. it Could be true israel looked for this war, this both remains to be proven, and if so Hamas fell strait for and in a clear illegal manner, some of Israels starting moves were either legal, or debatable and require trial, for example, the rearrests of shalit prisoners is legal if israel proves they broke their release terms.

It seems really obvious Israel looked for this war. It was supposed to be an answer to the killing of the tree Isreali, which Israel blamed on Hamas, with great certainty. Now they're saying it wasn't Hamas at all. "Oops, our bad, but we still killed 800 people, for no reason at all." So Israel broke this truce. In stead of waiting for the results of the investigation (which I'm guessing they had all along) they went in and killed 800 people (probably more by now)

4) Israel avoids civilian casualties, but Hamas aims to kill civilians.
writer claims : "With the use of drones, F-16s and an arsenal of modern weapon technology, Israel has the ability to target single individuals and therefore to avoid civilian casualties. But rather than avoid them, Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians as part of its military operations."
Sorry, but there is yet to be a public weapon that is able to target someone genetic composition, this claim is invalid, in many cases israel decided to target hamas officials they almost always hit civilians while doing it, that's their policy, can argue for or against it, but its bullshit to make it seem as if IDF is what its not. The next point of the author relates to this so we can move on and it should shed light on this -

If you look at the facts cut and dry, the IDF has killed 800 people for no reason (see my previous point). They shouldn't have even been there in the first place. And it's the eleventh most advanced army in the world, against people who can throw stones.* You can't tell me they can't be more discriminate in their fire. Schools get bombarded. Kids on a beach get shelled. A lonesome, desperate man, looking for his relatives between the rubble, in panic, get killed by a sniper. (I can post the link to the video if you'd like) You don't need "genetic detection technology" to avoid butchering completely harmless, hopeless, defenseless innocent people.

*(I'm not very knowledgeable about the "military" capabilities of Palestinians, can someone tell me what weapons they have, in a specific manner?)

5) Hamas hides its weapons in homes, mosques and schools and uses human shields.
writer claims:" Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons."
Yes it has, UNRWA CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS, FOR A SECOND TIME, IN ONE OF ITS SCHOOLS - http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools.
Besides like the dozens of ariel pictures provided by THE IDF regarding weapons placement as pictures taken by aeroplanes.

I'm sorry. But given Israels track record, I'm not believing a single word they're saying anymore.
 
You do realize your counterargument for #5 was mentioned just a few lines in, right? The key detail being that the schools were empty.

And you say #2 just rephrases #1, while ignoring the fact that #2 negates your criticism of #1.

i relaise the counterargument few lines in is from the FORMER war against lebanon, not gaza, or are you talking about the article i linked, and then you are just disregarding then the staff of UNRWA mean nothing to you.

"Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets"

i answered to your 2nd claim just before, israel does not militarily occupy gaza, many arguments CAN be made about the exact nature, but having a weak claim as "it should hold the gazans life "EVEN MORE PRECIOUSLY" is weak, its countered by self defense claim either way which i did not even bother invoking before. the whole argument that military law does not abide since they are occupied is silly anyhow, so what law does? are they to receive diplomatic immunity?
 
Wait hold on, is Israel still playing the "self-defense" card after killing nearly a thousand innocent people??? How the hell does that work?! Next time I get freaked out, I'll just starting randomly shooting everything that moves and claim self defense too. Wonder how well that will fly in court.
 
I can't believe the US is actually allowing this to continue and maybe even fund it??? Some of the other Middle Eastern powers need to show some strength... I'm sure a slight halt in oil exports will send shockwaves around the world.
 
i relaise the counterargument few lines in is from the FORMER war against lebanon, not gaza, or are you talking about the article i linked, and then you are just disregarding then the staff of UNRWA mean nothing to you.

"Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets"

i answered to your 2nd claim just before, israel does not militarily occupy gaza, many arguments CAN be made about the exact nature, but having a weak claim as "it should hold the gazans life "EVEN MORE PRECIOUSLY" is weak, its countered by self defense claim either way which i did not even bother invoking before. the whole argument that military law does not abide since they are occupied is silly anyhow, so what law does? are they to receive diplomatic immunity?

UNRWA thing was wrong

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press...-two-retracts-false-allegations-against-unrwa
 
What are these Hague Regulations and their article 47 defining occupation ? There is the 1907 Hague Convention

Art. 47.

Pillage is formally forbidden.

Maybe the Geneva Convention ?

Article 47 [ Link ] -- Mercenaries

1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.

[/quote]

Or another Geneva Convention

Art. 47. Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory.

From a debunk you'd expect a little more care. It's also remarkable how the Hamas-Fatah conflict which ended with summary executions of Fatah members is described as 'Hamas routed Fatah'. The term 'routed' is used very rarely but for some reason the term is always used here as a very clinical way of describing murder.
 

THIS IS A BLATANT LIE, this guy posted an article regarding another issue regarding a news report claiming "Channel Two, has retracted false and damaging allegations that an UNRWA ambulance was used to transport militants in Gaza on the night of 19 July 2014. The false report by Channel Two’s military affairs correspondent was pulled after UNRWA presented incontrovertible evidence that the allegation was baseless."

It has nothing to do with what i reported, which UNWRA admitted in a press conference themselves.
 
2TIjd46.png
 
i answered to your 2nd claim just before, israel does not militarily occupy gaza, many arguments CAN be made about the exact nature, but having a weak claim as "it should hold the gazans life "EVEN MORE PRECIOUSLY" is weak, its countered by self defense claim either way which i did not even bother invoking before. the whole argument that military law does not abide since they are occupied is silly anyhow, so what law does? are they to receive diplomatic immunity?

There is a vast difference between, holding Gazans lives "EVEN MORE PRECIOUSLY" and giving them "diplomatic immunity", and killing 940 people for no reason. Israel shows a complete disregard for the lives of the people of Gaza. Do you disagree with this?

THIS IS A BLATANT LIE, this guy posted an article regarding another issue regarding a news report claiming "Channel Two, has retracted false and damaging allegations that an UNRWA ambulance was used to transport militants in Gaza on the night of 19 July 2014. The false report by Channel Two’s military affairs correspondent was pulled after UNRWA presented incontrovertible evidence that the allegation was baseless."

It has nothing to do with what i reported, which UNWRA admitted in a press conference themselves.

In the thenation article this was used to discuss how Israel blames Hamas of using human shields. Such as in the schools. When in fact, those schools were empty. They did use the schools for their weapons, as verified by UNRWA, but not people as human shields. Contrary to Israeli claims.
 
i relaise the counterargument few lines in is from the FORMER war against lebanon, not gaza, or are you talking about the article i linked, and then you are just disregarding then the staff of UNRWA mean nothing to you.

"Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets"

i answered to your 2nd claim just before, israel does not militarily occupy gaza, many arguments CAN be made about the exact nature, but having a weak claim as "it should hold the gazans life "EVEN MORE PRECIOUSLY" is weak, its countered by self defense claim either way which i did not even bother invoking before. the whole argument that military law does not abide since they are occupied is silly anyhow, so what law does? are they to receive diplomatic immunity?
The point was that weapons were stored in the school when it was empty and presumably assumed to continue being empty. It was only when UNRWA staff began using the school that they discovered the weapons, and they were dealt with accordingly.
 
There is a vast difference between, holding Gazans lives "EVEN MORE PRECIOUSLY" and giving them "diplomatic immunity", and killing 940 people for no reason. Israel shows a complete disregard for the lives of the people of Gaza. Do you disagree with this?


Yes there is a vast difference, and there are argument to be made in a proper conversation. i don't think one can be made with you, since you are very inaccurate. go read my initial post commenting the article, and how you answered me and ignored a bunch of stuff, relate to it, and we can talk.
 
The point was that weapons were stored in the school when it was empty and presumably assumed to continue being empty. It was only when UNRWA staff began using the school that they discovered the weapons, and they were dealt with accordingly.

LOL, just lol. maybe someone else can comment to this, i am out.
 
Very well, i completely agree israel is occupying the Palestinians, but its not some black and white issue, and its not a military occupation, israel does not rule the civilians and one cannot just go and say "military occupation rules apply" as an easy claim.
If it's not a military occupation... Then what the hell kind of occupation is it? Who controls Gaza's border if not the IDF. Who maintains authority of the flow of money and goods into and out of Gaza if not the IDF (note how pissed off Israel gets when Hamas tries to circumvent Israeli control). Doesn't the IDF feel justified in heading into Gaza whenever it deems necessary? It is a military occupation. Full. Stop.
 
Yes there is a vast difference, and there are argument to be made in a proper conversation. i don't think one can be made with you, since you are very inaccurate. go read my initial post commenting the article, and how you answered me and ignored a bunch of stuff, relate to it, and we can talk.

I don't pretend to know everything. I've done quite a bit of reading about these latest attacks, but there's a lot I don't know. Could you tell me specifically in what I've been inaccurate? And btw, I'm not condemning all Israeli's here. I'm comdemning the people who've made the decision to kill almost a thousand people. And the people doing the killing.
 
I can't believe the US is actually allowing this to continue and maybe even fund it??? Some of the other Middle Eastern powers need to show some strength... I'm sure a slight halt in oil exports will send shockwaves around the world.
I am afraid the Middle Eastern powers have their own power struggle. Quatar and Turkey support Palestina, but they also were on the side of the Muslim Brotherhood in egypt, while the other bigger Middle Eastern countries supported the new egypt government. At the moment the others can't support Palestina, because Quatar and Turkey do. Stupid politics are fun, in every area of the world.
 
Human shield argument again which has already been refuted by multiple other sources.
Well I can't think of a source greater than someone who was there first hand. And as he says, information doesn't get reported or is distorted so it's possible the naysayers are using that.

Unless he's some kind of asshole, I think I can take his word for it. But I definitely want to listen from more account from both sides.
 
Well I can't think of a source greater than someone who was there first hand. And he says, information gets distorted so it's possible the naysayers are using that.
How about Amnesty International?
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-conflict-questions-and-answers-2014-07-25

The Israeli authorities claim that Hamas and Palestinian armed groups use Palestinian civilians in Gaza as “human shields”. Does Amnesty International have any evidence that this has occurred during the current hostilities?
Amnesty International is monitoring and investigating such reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks. In previous conflicts Amnesty International has documented that Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip in violation of international humanitarian law. Reports have also emerged during the current conflict of Hamas urging residents to ignore Israeli warnings to evacuate. However, these calls may have been motivated by a desire to minimize panic and displacement, in any case, such statements are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as “human shields” for fighters, munitions, or military equipment. Under international humanitarian law even if “human shields” are being used Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.
 
Well I can't think of a source greater than someone who was there first hand. And he says, information gets distorted so it's possible the naysayers are using that.

Unless he's some kind of asshole, I think I can take his word for it. But I definitely want to listen from more accounts.

So, if we take some other conflict as a comparison example and say that a Serbian soldier from the Yugoslavian conflict said that there was no ethnic cleansing, you'd believe him because he was there?
 
Well I can't think of a source greater than someone who was there first hand. And he says, information gets distorted so it's possible the naysayers are using that.

Unless he's some kind of asshole, I think I can take his word for it. But I definitely want to listen from more accounts.
You know, he could lie or be told to lie by the higher ups. I am not by default doubting this though, Hamas aren't angels. I just want to remind you to not take the words of an soldier in duty so easy for the truth.
 
Well I can't think of a source greater than someone who was there first hand. And as he says, information gets distorted so it's possible the naysayers are using that.

Unless he's some kind of asshole, I think I can take his word for it. But I definitely want to listen from more account from both sides.

so if we give hamas source would u accepted ?
 
So an IDF soldier who was in Gaza says Hamas are hiding behind civilians making fighting really difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY_...etailpage&list=UUwNKDiOvWTL5QR3zsHZYCeQ#t=304

Can't think of any reason why he would lie. And once again, not justifying any deaths. Just pointing out how Hamas abuses the Palestinian people and what the IDF has to put up with.

I just watched the first five miutes of the entire video and all I could think was, what the fuck. The guy hasn't seen his family for two months, they're worried about him. Well. Luckily for him he still has a family, and it hasn't been ripped apart by random killing.
 
With far more to come, because nobody will stop this.

Well Eastern Ukraine conflict is now around 1200-1500, nobody care either. Current sanctions on Russia are a joke, they will still deliver the 2 Mistral Classe frigate.
More people died in the current timeframe from the syrian civil war, do we see something substantial done?
The June 2014 ISIS offensive in Iraq is around what? 3000 death? As long as oil flows, nobody bickers.
Waziristan is still a mess.
Let's not even list Africa between the South Sudan conflict, the somali civil war, Boko Haram in Nigeria where the world just sit on their hands

It's a tragedy for the people involved but in the grand scale of things, the israelo-palestinian conflict is just one of the conflict that rage in the world every day.
 
Well I can't think of a source greater than someone who was there first hand. And as he says, information gets distorted so it's possible the naysayers are using that.

Unless he's some kind of asshole, I think I can take his word for it. But I definitely want to listen from more account from both sides.

Unless "he's some kind of asshole"? Like the IDF soldiers who used civilians as human shields before?


http://www.jeremiahhaber.com/2009/07/breaking-silence-gaza-testimonies-use.html

http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/11/26/israel-soldiers-punishment-using-boy-human-shield-inadequate

http://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20021114

http://www.btselem.org/human_shields/20060720_human_shields_in_beit_hanun

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/06/20/309997/israel-uses-palestinian-kids-as-shields-un/

The IDF even dared to appeal the ban of human shields:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

Funny how the claims about human shield usage by Hamas only come from the IDF, and never from independent human right groups.
 
Well Eastern Ukraine conflict is now around 1200-1500, nobody care either. Current sanctions on Russia are a joke, they will still deliver the 2 Mistral Classe frigate.
More people died in the current timeframe from the syrian civil war, do we see something substantial done?
The June 2014 ISIS offensive in Iraq is around what? 3000 death? As long as oil flows, nobody bickers.
Waziristan is still a mess.
Let's not even list Africa between the South Sudan conflict, the somali civil war, Boko Haram in Nigeria where the world just sit on their hands

It's a tragedy for the people involved but in the grand scale of things, the israelo-palestinian conflict is just one of the conflict that rage in the world every day.
All the more reason to buzz it while its hot in the news. We need to keep the the story in the media alive as long as we can, so our politicans feel forced to act.
 
Well I can't think of a source greater than someone who was there first hand. And as he says, information gets distorted so it's possible the naysayers are using that.

Unless he's some kind of asshole, I think I can take his word for it. But I definitely want to listen from more account from both sides.

I don't know if you're being purposefully dishonest in your discussions or just failing to understand what's going on and the parties involved. "naysayers."
 
All the more reason to buzz it while its hot in the news. We need to keep the the story in the media alive as long as we can, so our politicans feel forced to act.
Sorry but this conflict is probably the lowest of the low for the US to care about in ANYWAY. Its the Middle east being middle east. There is a lot more state side to that is politically and for the Nation more worth the effort caring about.

The Gaza fighting will end when Israel says its done. The US is no longer factor as long as this current administration is in charge and the current Congress is in charge.
 
Sorry but this conflict is probably the lowest of the low for the US to care about in ANYWAY. Its the Middle east being middle east. There is a lot more state side to that is politically and for the Nation more worth the effort caring about.

The Gaza fighting will end when Israel says its done. The US is no longer factor as long as this current administration is in charge and the current Congress is in charge.
There is a lot to care since the USA financing Israel. But could the american people shown what their taxmoney is doing, how barbaric america's greatest ally is, hell will break loose and they will be forced to draw support. We just have to buzz loud and long enough.
 
its shitty how many people will have to die before this is over.

that said, this is over. this is ending. this will not be tolerated in the future.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom