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[Toxi]

Oh, and for the people who said only Israel claims that Hamas uses human shield tactics.

You still haven't replied about the hospital. You said the attacks on hospitals were excused if there was evidence of them being used for military purposes. Where is the evidence?

Or are you just going to ignore that you were defending a fucking attack on a hospital?

 

[Dai101]

https://twitter.com/SherenK/status/493127375278710785

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

So basically, pro-Israelis argue we can't trust Hamas to want peace or justice because they're an extremist terrorist organization, and argue we can trust Hamas over the UN because "why would Hamas lie?" And apparently the UN hate Israel and are liars.

Amazing.

When have Hamas said they want peace or justice? I just linked you to an article, from April this year, of the leader of Hamas stating they were committed to Jihad.

Whether the UN consider Gaza to be occupied or not is irrelevant. If Hamas do not consider it to be occupied and refuse to use the occupation as justification for their cause (instead, choosing religious Jihad) then why should "the occupation" be constantly paraded as an excuse for indiscriminate Hamas rocket fire?

 

[Buzzman]

Oh, and for the people who said only Israel claims that Hamas uses human shield tactics.


“The presence of militant fighters in Shejaia became clear Sunday afternoon when, under the cover of a humanitarian truce intended to allow both sides to remove the dead and wounded, several armed Palestinians scurried from the scene.Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but at least two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a baby blanket and held on his chest as if it were an infant.”

2. Canadian TV correspondent Janis Mackey Frayer tweeted the following on 20 July:

Inside Shejaiyya we also saw several #Hamas gunmen. One passed dressed in a woman’s headscarf… tip of a gun poked out from under cloak.

— Janis Mackey Frayer (@janisctv) July 20, 2014

Uhhh, that's not what using a human shield implies.

 

[Chumly]

Yup it's a vicious cycle. Western powers deem Hamas as a terrorist organization but as we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan Western support only matters so much

Until Israel is treated like the terrorist organization it is, the viscous cycle will continue. Since Israel gets an automatic free pass from western powers like the United States they are free to do whatever they want. So there is only one way to stop this and its dealing with Israel.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Oh, and for the people who said only Israel claims that Hamas uses human shield tactics.

...you sure post a lost of links that don't prove what they claim to prove.

 

[Buzzman]

When have Hamas said they want peace or justice? I just linked you to an article, from April this year, of the leader of Hamas stating they were committed to Jihad.

Whether the UN consider Gaza to be occupied or not is irrelevant. If Hamas do not consider it to be occupied and refuse to use the occupation as justification for their cause (instead, choosing religious Jihad) then why should "the occupation" be constantly paraded as an excuse for indiscriminate Hamas rocket fire?

??? Who gives a shit what Hamas thinks? The rocket attacks and Hamas are a result of Palestinians lashing out against their oppressors. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

 

[Chumly]

Oh, and for the people who said only Israel claims that Hamas uses human shield tactics.

So Hamas dressing as women means its using human shields? This somehow justifies the thousands of strikes Israel has carried out? I cannot LOL hard enough.

 

[docbon]

Hamas is a crime syndicate that doesn't want peace. They profit from every Israeli bomb and every Western dollar and media piece used for the conflict. Their terrorist leaders are around the world profiting off of these crimes against humanity, and every casualty converts more militants in a vicious cycle.

Can you explain this further?

I'm not well versed in Hamas' financial activities, but every aspect of Gaza's infrastructure is getting crushed,their borders blockaded, and 160,000+ of their civilians displaced to UN shelters. Since Hamas is responsible for the well being of Gaza itself, I can't fathom how they could offset such a cost.

I do agree with your point that every casualty breeds more hatred, though that doesn't absolve Israel of its role in their deaths.

 

[werks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRA8hLPATuU


No fucking wonder Hamas doesn't want the ceasefire to be extended when the IDF feels free to keep killing civilians. But HAMAS!!!

 

[Abounder]

Until Israel is treated like the terrorist organization it is, the viscous cycle will continue. Since Israel gets an automatic free pass from western powers like the United States they are free to do whatever they want. So there is only one way to stop this and its dealing with Israel.

Even if Israel wiped out Hamas it will just create more extremists like we've see in Iraq with ISIS. Israel is fucked with or without Western support but their allies have spoken out against the civilian casualties. No nation-state is going to do anything but keep the vicious cycle turning.

 

[GYODX]

You still haven't replied about the hospital. You said the attacks on hospitals were excused if there was evidence of them being used for military purposes. Where is the evidence?

Or are you just going to ignore that you were defending a fucking attack on a hospital?

That's what I said, if it was in fact being used as weapon depots or rocket launch sites, then it is justified in the eyes of International Law. That was mainly a response to the people who were saying that it is somehow wrong of Israel to attack civilian infrastructure even if it's being used for military purposes; I was not talking about a specific case.

And I also established, contrary to what many people here like to believe, that there is in fact precedent to prove that Hamas has no qualms storing its weapons near civilian infrastructure and engaging in human shield tactics and other such tactics at the expense of its civilian population.

 

[werks]

That's what I said, if it was in fact being used as weapon depots or rocket launch sites, then it is justified in the eyes of International Law. That was mainly a response to the people who were saying that it is somehow wrong of Israel to attack civilian infrastructure even if it's being used for military purposes; I was not talking about a specific case.

And I also established, contrary to what many people here like to believe, that there is in fact precedent to prove that Hamas has no qualms storing its weapons near civilian infrastructure and engaging in human shield tactics and other such tactics at the expense of its civilian population.

So basically nothing. IDF's war crimes are no better than Hamas' tactics.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

That's what I said, if it was in fact being used as weapon depots or rocket launch sites, then it is justified in the eyes of International Law. That was mainly a response to the people who were saying that it is somehow wrong of Israel to attack civilian infrastructure even if it's being used for military purposes; I was not talking about a specific case.

And I also established, contrary to what many people here like to believe, that there is in fact precedent to prove that Hamas has no qualms storing its weapons near civilian infrastructure and engaging in human shield tactics and other such tactics at the expense of its civilian population.

you haven't established that. at all.

 

[werks]

IDF making it count till the last minute. I'm sure they were human shields. Infact if the palestinians didn't want to be human shields, they would have left Gaza by now.

 

[Linkhero1]

That's what I said, if it was in fact being used as weapon depots or rocket launch sites, then it is justified in the eyes of International Law. That was mainly a response to the people who were saying that it is somehow wrong of Israel to attack civilian infrastructure even if it's being used for military purposes; I was not talking about a specific case.

And I also established, contrary to what many people here like to believe, that there is in fact precedent to prove that Hamas has no qualms storing its weapons near civilian infrastructure and engaging in human shield tactics and other such tactics at the expense of its civilian population.

So where's the proof that it was used to store weapons? Why not allow UN staff and civilians to evacuate? Why ignore UN's call to evacuate?

 

[wsippel]

Oh, and for the people who said only Israel claims that Hamas uses human shield tactics.

It doesn't really matter if Hamas uses human shields. IDF uses weapons designed to cause large scale damage to soft targets like flechette ammunition, and they don't give a fuck about blowing up buildings in the vicinity of assumed rocket launch pads. Operations in civilian areas have to be performed as careful as possible, especially if there are "human shields" involved.

As I wrote in another thread, the military operation is completely pointless and braindead and is not going to solve anything, regardless of who started what. Israel is only making things worse, they're driving more and more people into Hamas' arms, and they're making life harder for Jews all over the world. Is Hamas a terrorist organization? Maybe. At least a number of members certainly are. But you can not fight terrorists using military methods unless you go full Nazi mode, which is obviously not exactly a good idea either.

 

[GYODX]

...you sure post a lost of links that don't prove what they claim to prove.

Sure, if you ignore the parts of the link where it says that:

a) A hospital has become a de-facto headquarters for Hamas leaders
b) Hamas has been seen storing rockets in a mosque
c) Hamas uses evacuating civilians journalists as human shields (I can translate that Japanese article if you like)

 

[Toxi]

Sure, if you ignore the parts of the link where it says that:

a) A hospital has become a defacto headquarters for Hamas leaders
b) Hamas has been seen storing rockets in a mosque
c) Hamas uses evacuating civilians journalists as human shields (I can translate that Japanese article if you like)

I'm so glad that "a hospital" somehow translates into "all hospitals." Must be hard for the IDF to remember which hospital actually had terrorists inside, or which mosque had rockets inside.

 

[Buzzman]

IDF making it count till the last minute. I'm sure they were human shields. Infact if the palestinians didn't want to be human shields, they would have left Gaza by now.

I think there's even footage of it.

 

[werks]

Just saw pictures of a 5 yr old boy with both legs blown off.... Fuck Israel and everything she stands for.

 

[BLunted]

https://twitter.com/SherenK/status/493127375278710785

It's not unknown who broke it. CNN reported that Hamas fired 4 mortars immediately after the 12 hour cease fire ended, and a little later resumed rocket fire.

 

[GYODX]

I'm so glad that "a hospital" somehow translates into "all hospitals." Must be hard for the IDF to remember which hospital actually had terrorists inside, or which mosque had rockets inside.

You keep trying to refute something I never tried to imply.

The only thing I'm trying to say with all of this is that there is in fact precedent for Hamas using human shields and other such tactics at the expense of the civilian population. Because apparently some people have deluded themselves into believing that this is not the case and that it is nothing more than an Israeli narrative.

 

[Buzzman]

Question:
Which of these buildings house Hamas militants?

Answer: Every single one apparently.

 

[zer0blivion]

The only thing I'm trying to say with all of this is that there is in fact precedent for Hamas using human shields and other such tactics at the expense of the civilian population. Because apparently some people have deluded themselves into believing that this is not the case and that it is nothing more than an Israeli narrative.

There's zero evidence of your human shield claims. Watch this video

Noura Erakat Debates the Tactics and Ethics of Warfare on PBS Newshour
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365295454

Noura Erakat of George Mason University and Amos Guiora of the University of Utah to discuss and debate accusations that "Hamas is using civilians as human shields and the ethics of targeting civilian areas.

 

[Dai101]

For all of you apologist of israel and the like ....

http://instagram.com/p/q7WZmgnEAn/

https://twitter.com/AymanM/status/493127746084564992

How the fuck can you defend this and still try to argue you're just triying to hold a middle ground and or try to spin what israel is doing there. Go fuck yourselves.



I'm out of this for a while........... i need to clear my head.

 

[theignoramus]

Question:
Which of these buildings house Hamas militants?

Answer: Every single one apparently.

the Dahiyah doctrine

 

[jchap]

https://twitter.com/SherenK/status/493127375278710785

Pretty much all major news outlets are reporting Hamas broke the agreement by firing rockets.

"Hamas said it fired five rockets at Israel late Saturday after rejecting Israel's offer to extend a 12-hour humanitarian cease-fire by four hours"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/26/gaza-rockets-truce-extension_n_5623628.html?1406401927

 

[werks]

Question:
Which of these buildings house Hamas militants?

Answer: Every single one apparently.

Hamas is clever, filling the city with human shields.

 

[GYODX]

There's zero evidence of your human shield claims. Watch this video

Noura Erakat Debates the Tactics and Ethics of Warfare on PBS Newshour
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365295454

Zero evidence, besides the one I just showed you. Sure.

 

[LNBL]

As far as International Law is concerned, hospitals lose their protection if they're being used for military purposes, actually.

I established this when I quoted the Fourth Geneva Convention a couple of dozen pages ago.

Only hamas did not use the hospital to fire rockets, the IDF even said they were not targeting the hospital but that it was within the area of their target.( though there were still strikes aimed at the hospital) Please stop spouting nonsense, most of you claims have allready backfired and have been disproven.

 

[GYODX]

Only hamas did not use the hospital to fire rockets, the IDF even said they were not targeting the hospital but that it was within the area of their target. Please stop spouting nonsense, most of you claims have allready backfired and have been disproven.

I was not referring to a specific case.

And yeah, all my claims have been disproved except the ones that haven't.

 

[werks]

I was not referring to a specific case.

And yeah, all my claims have been disproved except the ones that haven't.

But you were still using it to defend the IDF's war crimes. Or atleast to muddy the water.

 

[Abounder]

Can you explain this further?

I'm not well versed in Hamas' financial activities, but every aspect of Gaza's infrastructure is getting crushed,their borders blockaded, and 160,000+ of their civilians displaced to UN shelters. Since Hamas is responsible for the well being of Gaza itself, I can't fathom how they could offset such a cost.

I do agree with your point that every casualty breeds more hatred, though that doesn't absolve Israel of its role in their deaths.

Hamas and other terrorist organizations like Hezbollah have worldwide reach, and through contacts in Lebanon they are in talks to receive more weapons and training from Western enemies like North Korea (on a sidenote that's probably where the Hamas tunneling strategy come from; North Koreans have the largest commando force in the world and have tunneled through the Korean DMZ if I recall correctly).

Hamas uses Gaza as a tar pit that will slowly drown Israel because Israeli military actions is basically like shooting at sand. Every civilian that is displaced is just more fuel for the Hamas war machine, and is another minor victory for their benefactors like North Korea (because Western reputation, money, and war support becomes weaker).

In my opinion even if Israel went full-Nazi and wiped out Gaza they will only breed more extremists much like ISIS in Iraq, or what happened with USSR/USA in Afghanistan. Israel has started an avalanche and realistically I don't see the vicious cycle ending.

 

[LNBL]

I was not referring to a specific case.

And yeah, all my claims have been disproved except the ones that haven't.

Notmaly people would aree shooting on hospitals is horrible, you however provided te exception to the rule. What else do you think that could mean?

 

[GYODX]

But you were still using it to defend the IDF's war crimes. Or atleast to muddy the water.

What is nuance, eh? Again, it is so tiring how people have to try to pigeonhole everything I say into the pro-Israel/Pro-Palestine camp. It's like you have to ascertain what "side" I'm on before you decide how you should feel about my comments. Pretty fucking childish.

 

[Razgreez]

Definitely.

Hamas does it to get more bombs and extremists. They don't want peace.

And on a sidenote I think Israel is basically fucked. We've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan just how worthless years of Western influence and support can be after the ISIS raids and other extremists take over

You sure went from asking a question in a pretense of neutrality to making emphatic statements rather quickly

 

[Toxi]

Hamas and other terrorist organizations like Hezbollah have worldwide reach, and through contacts in Lebanon they are in talks to receive more weapons and training from Western enemies like North Korea (on a sidenote that's probably where the Hamas tunneling strategy come from; North Koreans have the largest commando force in the world and have tunneled through the DMZ if I recall correctly).

Hamas uses Gaza as a tar pit that will slowly drown Israel because Israeli military actions is basically like shooting at sand. Every civilian that is displaced is just more fuel for the Hamas war machine, and is another minor victory for their benefactors like North Korea (because Western reputation, money, and war support becomes weaker).

In my opinion even if Israel went full-Nazi and wiped out Gaza they will only breed more extremists much like ISIS in Iraq, or what happened with USSR/USA in Afghanistan. Israel has started an avalanche and realistically I don't see the vicious cycle ending.

How about not firing indiscriminately upon Gaza? How about not building illegal settlements on the West Bank?

There is no "vicious cycle" here. Israel can stop this long before it escalates into a group as extreme and violent as ISIS. The idea that this conflict is inevitable or that both sides must always use violence is what stops anything from getting done.

 

[LNBL]

Hamas and other terrorist organizations like Hezbollah have worldwide reach, and through contacts in Lebanon they are in talks to receive more weapons and training from Western enemies like North Korea (on a sidenote that's probably where the Hamas tunneling strategy come from; North Koreans have the largest commando force in the world and have tunneled through the DMZ if I recall correctly).

Hamas uses Gaza as a tar pit that will slowly drown Israel because Israeli military actions is basically like shooting at sand. Every civilian that is displaced is just more fuel for the Hamas war machine, and is another minor victory for their benefactors like North Korea (because Western reputation, money, and war support becomes weaker).

In my opinion even if Israel went full-Nazi and wiped out Gaza they will only breed more extremists much like ISIS in Iraq, or what happened with USSR/USA in Afghanistan. Israel has started an avalanche and realistically I don't see the vicious cycle ending.

Trying to comprehend how you managed to include ISIS in your post. You are inly looking at this from the Israeli pov, frankly i'm more concerned with the lives of people being oppressed.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Today

Hamas fires 4 rockets stopped by iron dome

Israel retaliates by dropping 1 bomb killing 20 civilians

This is the story of the conflict

 

[BLunted]

Israel just announced an additional 24hr ceasefire. Ball is in Hamas' court.

 

[GYODX]

Notmaly people would aree shooting on hospitals is horrible, you however provided te exception to the rule. What else do you think that could mean?

Because someone said that even if it were the case that Hamas was shooting rockets from schools, it is still unjustifiable for Israel to attack it.

All my comment did was prove that it is justified as far as International Law is concerned. You can call it immoral if you like; I think it is, too. But in a thread where people keep throwing around the terms "war crimes" and "international law", it is not at all unreasonable of me to introduce some nuance as to what that actually means.

 

[Toxi]

Israel just announced an additional 24hr ceasefire. Ball is in Hamas' court.

There is no way they won't break the ceasefire. Not after what just happened. All it takes is one angry man with a rocket to start the violence again.

Scary stuff.

 

[BLunted]

How about not firing indiscriminately upon Gaza? How about not building illegal settlements on the West Bank?

.

It's not that the fire is indiscriminate, it's that it's too crowded. It was also reported that during the 12 hour ceasefire, Israel advised Gazans not to return to specific neigbourhoods, that fighting was going to resume there, but many ignored and returned to the neighbourhoods anyway.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Because someone said that even if it were the case that Hamas was shooting rockets from schools, it is still unjustifiable for Israel to attack it.

All my comment did was prove that it is justified as far as International Law is concerned. You can call it immoral if you like; I think it is, too. But in a thread where people keep throwing around the terms "war crimes" and "international law", it is not at all unreasonable of me to introduce some nuance into what that actually means.

Yes Hamas rockets are illegal

Now.
What about freedom of Gaza civilians to move out of Gaza and into Gaza

Lack of Freedom to trade

Lack of Freedom for financial transactions for businesses

Israeli settlements in disputed areas

Destructions of homes of Hamas relatives who are not Hamas members

What about the ones above . Are you going to denounce them ?

 

[Skyzard]

It's not that the fire is indiscriminate, it's that it's too crowded. It was also reported that during the 12 hour ceasefire, Israel advised Gazans not to return to specific neigbourhoods, that fighting was going to resume there, but many ignored and returned to the neighbourhoods anyway.

Damn civilians "getting in the way" of the bombs.


They should probably take a magic carpet to a safe haven UN shelter.

 

[BLunted]

There is no way they won't break the ceasefire. Not after what just happened. All it takes is one angry man with a rocket to start the violence again.

Scary stuff.

Well they didnt break the 12 hour, or the 4 hour extension, Hamas did. We'll have to see.

 

[Abounder]

You sure went from asking a question in a pretense of neutrality to making emphatic statements rather quickly

What question did I ask? My stance is that Israel and Hamas will keep firing at eachother in a vicious cycle, and that Israel is likely doomed much like what we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even if they somehow eliminated the current extremists there will only be more like ISIS.

How about not firing indiscriminately upon Gaza? How about not building illegal settlements on the West Bank?

There is no "vicious cycle" here. Israel can stop this long before it escalates into a group as extreme and violent as ISIS. The idea that this conflict is inevitable or that both sides must always use violence is what stops anything from getting done.

History and recent events points to a vicious cycle. Realistically I don't see either side wanting fulltime peace and a solution to this matter unfortunately. It's basically an avalanche and a cycle of revenge killings.

Trying to comprehend how you managed to include ISIS in your post.

ISIS shows just how futile Western support can be. I also used the USSR/USA in Afghanistan. If Israel somehow wipes out the North Korean-aligned Hamas they will only be replaced by more extremists/militants.

 

[Toxi]

It's not that the fire is indiscriminate, it's that it's too crowded. It was also reported that during the 12 hour ceasefire, Israel advised Gazans not to return to specific neigbourhoods, that fighting was going to resume there, but many ignored and returned to the neighbourhoods anyway.

The fire is indiscriminate. I think you would know that after they shelled a UN Shelter without letting them evacuate or attacked a hospital without providing evidence of why.

And I don't blame the Gazans for ignoring those warnings.

Well they didnt break the 12 hour, or the 4 hour extension, Hamas did. We'll have to see.

I was talking about Hamas.

Again, all it takes is one angry man with a rocket who lost family or friends.

 

[Jonm1010]

Oh, and for the people who said only Israel claims that Hamas uses human shield tactics.

A lot f this is just assertions. Some of this is not even shielding such as a militant wearing a scarf and zero of it proves that Hamas leadership is giving the orders and is employing wide scale human shielding as policy.