2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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Whitechocolatekrispies said:
I don't care if Israel is in the wrong with settlements, fact is you don't respond violently to an aggressor with superior firepower. You will loose and you will kill your fellow people.
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Tell that to so many societies and cultures I can't even begin to count them. I mean we could start with George Washington, but he wouldn't even be the first. Let's see... China, Scotland, Zulus... pretty much all of native South America, and native peoples of North America. Natives of Australia too... let's just say most natives, most colonists, and pretty much everyone the Romans and the Mongols ever fucked with. That still isn't everybody that broke your golden rule.

Bam Bam Baklava said:
But the point I'm trying to make is you could make the exact same statements about past movements. If you read the link you would see that the British bribed and covered up their massacre.
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Gandhi was a great man, and helped shift the British people off India after her people suffered terribly for it, but he wasn't the only factor. There were outside influences diverting the England at the time which allowed his non-violent protests to have their impact. There is nothing like that in this current situation, which has been ongoing for at least since 1967.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Ukraine isn't about to start firing artillery rounds into Russia despite Russian led separatists taking Ukrainian land. Russia will crush them into the ground. So what does Ukraine do? They lobby the Americans, they lobby the Europeans. They are not aggressive and have not resorted to terrorist activities.
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There's a fundimental flaw with your line of thinking here. That being, those regions have no love for Russia. In fact, unless I'm forgetting part of the seperation is based in the fact that like half the country wanted to join Russia again and the other half wanted to join the European Union. Those same Americans have shot down every request the Palestinians have had for over 50 years, and European countries aren't exactly in a position to argue over Israeli policy. If Israel were disliked the same way Russia is in the west, then maybe it would be relatable, but they are not.
 
Bam Bam Baklava said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_Bazaar_massacre

Some of you guys seem to like making light of nonviolent protests achievements. The fact is that these movements were met with extreme violence but they did not waver.



When did I say they would have been fine? I'm questioning if nonviolent protest would have been a viable path. Don't put words in my mouth.
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A cursory two second look at what happened to the first Intifada would tell you no not really. The Palestinians tried a non-violent approach, the decade up to the first Intifada was pretty peaceful although Islamic Jihad was active, it just got them more land stolen and the feel of Israel's Iron Fist approach

The accumulation of frustrations suffered by the civilian population over the years as a result of the persistent policy of annexation and colonization pursued by the Government of Israel in the territories occupied in June 1967, and the humiliation and suffering brought about by that policy, were bound to provoke a violent reaction on the part of the oppressed civilians. The restrictions imposed in the framework of the "iron-fist policy" since 1985 and the increasing determination of the young generation of Palestinians to oppose the arbitrary rules set by the occupants had prepared the ground for such a confrontation. Thus, the explosion of violence sparked off by an incident in the Gaza Strip in December 1987 quickly spread to the entire occupied territories, giving rise to what has since been called the uprising against the occupation.

The uprising has been marked by a heavy toll of casualties among the
Palestinian population. Hundreds of civilians have been killed by security forces, settlers, or under various other circumstances. The death toll has included casualties caused by shooting, beating, gas inhalation or electrocution. While several thousands of civilians have been physically injured, the entire Palestinian population has suffered as a result of the implementation by the Israeli authorities of the policy of "force, power and blows".
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Report of the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Population of the Occupied Territories. 26 August 1988
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9216F6A5267BA65C052566190057021E
 
Aaron said:
Gandhi was a great man, and helped shift the British people off India after her people suffered terribly for it, but he wasn't the only factor. There were outside influences diverting the England at the time which allowed his non-violent protests to have their impact. There is nothing like that in this current situation, which has been ongoing for at least since 1967.
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So you feel that the situation at hand today requires that violence be met with violence? That nonviolent protest has zero chance of being effective?

kmag said:
A cursory two second look at what happened to the first Intifada would tell you no not really. The Palestinians tried a non-violent approach, the decade up to the first Intifada was pretty peaceful although Islamic Jihad was active, it just got them more land stolen and the feel of Israel's Iron Fist approach



Report of the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Population of the Occupied Territories. 26 August 1988
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9216F6A5267BA65C052566190057021E
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I'm just saying trying something and being wholly committed to something are different to me. Of course there will be failures and setbacks that's no reason to just abandon it.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
I don't care if Israel is in the wrong with settlements, fact is you don't respond violently to an aggressor with superior firepower. You will loose and you will kill your fellow people.

Let's look at a similar conflict involving occupied land. Ukraine.

Ukraine isn't about to start firing artillery rounds into Russia despite Russian led separatists taking Ukrainian land. Russia will crush them into the ground. So what does Ukraine do? They lobby the Americans, they lobby the Europeans. They are not aggressive and have not resorted to terrorist activities.

What is that getting them? International support and help. What's happened to the Russian led separatists? They are terrorist scum now. They shoot down innocent airliners and have internationally embarrassed Russia who are now facing up to more sanctions.

How many rockets/artillery/mortars has Ukraine lobbed over the border? None.

So how about we stop acting like Israel is reason these conflicts are constantly happening and realise Hamas has taken a serious level of responsibility over the Palestinian people and rather than help them, they have completely fucked them by constantly aggravating a very very dangerous bear.


In other news, Israel's Iron Dome defence system is now world class, been one of the only truly tested and proven defence shields in the entire world. Combining their experience and learning from this system with their new Arrow ICBM defence system. Israel is now a world leader in missile defence.
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Spoken like a true Zionist.
 
Gandhi more or less admitted that in any other situation he would have had to turn to violence and was grateful that he didn't have to.

The Salt March was a great PR coup too. The Palestinians haven't had something along those lines that I can recall.
 
Bam Bam Baklava said:
So you feel that the situation at hand today requires that violence be met with violence? That nonviolent protest has zero chance of being effective?
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I'm saying that neither has been effective. I'm saying the people of Palestine will die, and there's nothing they can do about it.
 
neurosisxeno said:
There's a fundimental flaw with your line of thinking here. That being, those regions have no love for Russia. In fact, unless I'm forgetting part of the seperation is based in the fact that like half the country wanted to join Russia again and the other half wanted to join the European Union. Those same Americans have shot down every request the Palestinians have had for over 50 years, and European countries aren't exactly in a position to argue over Israeli policy. If Israel were disliked the same way Russia is in the west, then maybe it would be relatable, but they are not.
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Ukraine's government is not trustworthy either. because unlike Israel, they were friends with Russia for decades. Suddenly they decide to switch sides? Doesnt work for me.

Also Russia helped Ukraine a lot in times of need.

In contrast, Palestinians in other Arab countries are living in ghettos and living like second class citizens. The Arab world is split over the Palestinian issue. Or else Israel would be more careful with those attacks
 
Ironically, the recent conflict with rocket attacks have possibly done more to expose Israel's immorality from their disproportionate responses to threats than their ongoing aggression on non-violent actors. That's not to say that it's the best course of action, but an observation on how shitty the choices available to them are.
 
Bam Bam Baklava said:
So you feel that the situation at hand today requires that violence be met with violence? That nonviolent protest has zero chance of being effective?
Click to expand...

Ghandi's approach was on the back of decades of armed Indian resistance. Hell, there was armed resistance and massacres during Ghandi's nonviolent resistance. Lets not be ignorant of the history. Oppressed people will resist, oppression causes resistance.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
I don't care if Israel is in the wrong with settlements, fact is you don't respond violently to an aggressor with superior firepower. You will loose and you will kill your fellow people.

Let's look at a similar conflict involving occupied land. Ukraine.

Ukraine isn't about to start firing artillery rounds into Russia despite Russian led separatists taking Ukrainian land. Russia will crush them into the ground. So what does Ukraine do? They lobby the Americans, they lobby the Europeans. They are not aggressive and have not resorted to terrorist activities.

What is that getting them? International support and help. What's happened to the Russian led separatists? They are terrorist scum now. They shoot down innocent airliners and have internationally embarrassed Russia who are now facing up to more sanctions.

How many rockets/artillery/mortars has Ukraine lobbed over the border? None.

So how about we stop acting like Israel is reason these conflicts are constantly happening and realise Hamas has taken a serious level of responsibility over the Palestinian people and rather than help them, they have completely fucked them by constantly aggravating a very very dangerous bear.


In other news, Israel's Iron Dome defence system is now world class, been one of the only truly tested and proven defence shields in the entire world. Combining their experience and learning from this system with their new Arrow ICBM defence system. Israel is now a world leader in missile defence.
Click to expand...

There is no international support for the Palestinians. As long as Israel has the US veto and the other countries in the world kow-tow to the US then there's no international help beyond the meagre aid given to salve some damaged consciences.

Their option are to die quietly as their land is stolen in the West Bank (with every acre stolen putting any lasting peace that much further off) and their population is malnourished by the Israeli blockade or die quickly. Israel has absolutely no intention of releasing their grip on Gaza.

Hell this whole shebang has been kicked off because Israel dislikes the idea of the unity government which has basically accepted what was the Israeli position until 1998. Israel does not want peace, the shifting of goalposts will remain until they get all their sky pal promised land.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
I don't care if Israel is in the wrong with settlements, fact is you don't respond violently to an aggressor with superior firepower. You will loose and you will kill your fellow people.

Let's look at a similar conflict involving occupied land. Ukraine.

Ukraine isn't about to start firing artillery rounds into Russia despite Russian led separatists taking Ukrainian land. Russia will crush them into the ground. So what does Ukraine do? They lobby the Americans, they lobby the Europeans. They are not aggressive and have not resorted to terrorist activities.

What is that getting them? International support and help. What's happened to the Russian led separatists? They are terrorist scum now. They shoot down innocent airliners and have internationally embarrassed Russia who are now facing up to more sanctions.

How many rockets/artillery/mortars has Ukraine lobbed over the border? None.

So how about we stop acting like Israel is reason these conflicts are constantly happening and realise Hamas has taken a serious level of responsibility over the Palestinian people and rather than help them, they have completely fucked them by constantly aggravating a very very dangerous bear.


In other news, Israel's Iron Dome defence system is now world class, been one of the only truly tested and proven defence shields in the entire world. Combining their experience and learning from this system with their new Arrow ICBM defence system. Israel is now a world leader in missile defence.
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What the fuck sort of victim blaming bullshit is this?
 
Aaron said:
Tell that to so many societies and cultures I can't even begin to count them. I mean we could start with George Washington, but he wouldn't even be the first. Let's see... China, Scotland, Zulus... pretty much all of native South America, and native peoples of North America. Natives of Australia too... let's just say most natives, most colonists, and pretty much everyone the Romans and the Mongols ever fucked with. That still isn't everybody that broke your golden rule.
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Are you fucking kidding me?

I said superior fire power. Not similar firepower. Israel has air superiority, border control, weapon superiority, heavy armour, advanced guided weapons, superior intelligence.

Hamas has fucking RPG's and AK47's. Israel could carpet bomb their cities to dust over the course a few days. Hamas has spent the last few decades doing everything in it's power to kill Israelis and they have only made Israel stronger.

Washington had like 90 000 guys with similar equipment compared to the British 130 000 fighting. Washington lost 25 000, British lost 20 000. What an unfair fight ...

Chinese? Romans? Are you fucking kidding me? Since when did Romans have air superiority? Tanks? Missiles? If they wanted to fight, they'd have to march into their enemies land and fight them hand to hand.

Israel could press a button and kill half of the Gaza strip. That is superiority.

Dead Man said:
What the fuck sort of victim blaming bullshit is this?
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What the fuck sort of useless ignorant bullshit is this?

kmag said:
There is no international support for the Palestinians. As long as Israel has the US veto and the other countries in the world kow-tow to the US then there's no international help beyond the meagre aid given to salve some damaged consciences.
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Yeah because they are terrorists. Hence no one likes them. You can't expect them to get support while they still attack civilian centers and support the murder of an entire nation.

kmag said:
Their option are to die quietly as their land is stolen in the West Bank (with every acre stolen putting any lasting peace that much further off) and their population is malnourished by the Israeli blockade or die quickly. Israel has absolutely no intention of releasing their grip on Gaza.
Click to expand...

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. The Palestinian people have never starved. Israel lets in more than enough aid through designated border channels.

Hamas manages to bring in god knows how many rockets, concrete for tunnels and weapons. Not food. They are terrorists that put their people below killing Israelis.

kmag said:
Hell this whole shebang has been kicked off because Israel dislikes the idea of the unity government which has basically accepted what was the Israeli position until 1998. Israel does not want peace, the shifting of goalposts will remain until they get all their sky pal promised land.
Click to expand...

Yeah Israel doesn't want the Hamas terrorists affecting the West Bank where there has been quite a good strong peace. It wants Hamas gone. Oooo I wonder why ... could it be that Hamas wants Israel destroyed? WEIRD?
 
Bam Bam Baklava said:
But the point I'm trying to make is you could make the exact same statements about past movements. If you read the link you would see that the British bribed and covered up their massacre.
Click to expand...

It's a horrible false-equivalency because the nature of their occupations. The British Empire was all about colonizing and assimilating them into the host nation so they could exploit the resources and people of the area. They used superior firepower and substantially smaller numbers to basically enslave people and take advantage of them. There's also the fact that when Ghandi hit the scene the British Empire was on the verge of collapsing as it was--they were stretched too thin. If I remember correctly the International community wasn't too happy with England at the height of their imperialism either.

Israel wants none of this. Israel wants the land Palestinians are on, and would sooner execute or ship every civilian to the other side of the globe. Palestine has no resource that Israel could exploit, and on top of it all Israel has more soldiers, bigger guns, and a shocking amount of international support behind them.

You're comparing apples and oranges. England never threatened to displace the entire Indian population, in fact they wanted them there as workers and servents. Israel wants the entire population they are occupying to get the hell out so they can build condos and factories on the ground they currently live on.
 
Dubbedinenglish said:
Ghandi's approach was on the back of decades of armed Indian resistance. Hell, there was armed resistance and massacres during Ghandi's nonviolent resistance. Lets not be ignorant of the history. Oppressed people will resist, oppression causes resistance.
Click to expand...

Yes there is resistance. MLK had to deal with elements like that as well. The question is where is Palestine's nonviolence advocate and figure that people can rally behind.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Are you fucking kidding me?

I said superior fire power. Not similar firepower. Israel has air superiority, border control, weapon superiority, heavy armour, advanced guided weapons, superior intelligence.

Hamas has fucking RPG's and AK47's. Israel could carpet bomb their cities to dust over the course a few days. Hamas has spent the last few decades doing everything in it's power to kill Israelis and they have only made Israel stronger.

Washington had like 90 000 guys with similar equipment compared to the British 130 000 fighting. Washington lost 25 000, British lost 20 000. What an unfair fight ...

Chinese? Romans? Are you fucking kidding me? Since when did Romans have air superiority? Tanks? Missiles? If they wanted to fight, they'd have to march into their enemies land and fight them hand to hand.

Israel could press a button and kill half of the Gaza strip. That is superiority.



What the fuck sort of useless ignorant bullshit is this?
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You really have no grip on history.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Are you fucking kidding me?

I said superior fire power. Not similar firepower. Israel has air superiority, border control, weapon superiority, heavy armour, advanced guided weapons, superior intelligence.

Hamas has fucking RPG's and AK47's. Israel could carpet bomb their cities to dust over the course a few days. Hamas has spent the last few decades doing everything in it's power to kill Israelis and they have only made Israel stronger.

Israel could press a button and kill half of the Gaza strip. That is superiority.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Israel controls absolutely everything, down to caloric intake, designed to keep the Palestinians subjugated and subservient. Israel has its boot on the throat of the Palestinian people and they are fed up. They will fight back in any way they can. Israel, as the rapist are trying to stop the rape victim from fighting back. They are doing so by beating them instead of stopping the rape. I'm sorry for the harsh language, but that is what's happening here.
 
Washington's army was never as well equipped, supplied or even manned as well as the British. That's part of why he had to employ some risky tactics during the limited timeframes of battle. Indeed I believe Washington lost more battles than he won during the War.

I don't think the Hamas/PLO/etc. tactics are the smartest ones and they should probably learn about sunk costs but they can't really muster a conventional force because Israel would probably preemptively take it out.
 
benjipwns said:
Washington's army was never as well equipped, supplied or even manned as well as the British. That's part of why he had to employ some risky tactics during the limited timeframes of battle. Indeed I believe Washington lost more battles than he won during the War.
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We got the help of the French later on, though, because the French were always eager to piss off the British.

Too bad the expenditures from that effort helped push them into their own revolution.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Well everything supports my position.

Violence is getting them no where.
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Even though everything you've said is complete shit, you can't ignore the fact that peace got them nowhere either. The current violence by the IDF was kicked off by kidnapping/murder that there's no proof Hamas ever committed. The IDF have bombed hospitals and shelters in a clear violation of the Geneva Convention. While on the West Bank, they run people over with bulldozers, and if they protest they're gunned down. So they can either die slowly and quietly with the rest of the world blissfully ignorant, or they can die quicker, but maybe raise a little awareness. It's lose-lose either way.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Bullshit. Utter bullshit. The Palestinian people have never starved. Israel lets in more than enough aid through designated border channels.
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Except you are completely wrong; http://www.ibtimes.com/israels-blockade-gaza-puts-palestinian-childrens-health-risk-report-702821

The report cites a number of ailments suffered by Palestinian children in Gaza. Ten percent of children under 5 have stunted growth due to prolonged exposure to malnutrition. Anemia, caused by an iron-deficiency, affects 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, 68.1 percent of children nine to 12 months old and 36.8 percent of pregnant mothers.
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Bam Bam Baklava said:
Yes there is resistance. MLK had to deal with elements like that as well. The question is where is Palestine's nonviolence advocate and figure that people can rally behind.
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Too busy being killed for peacefully protesting and being made homeless on a daily basis in the West Bank.
 
Hellraizer said:
Ignorance is bliss, and ypu are blessed with lots of it.

So your position is either they die slow or die fast. Because either way they wont last.

Seeing child murder supporters on GAF is truly disgusting.
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To be fair, he's probably Israeli and a Zionist and doesn't know any better because the propaganda machine in Israel is unlike any other.
 
I watched an episode of Storyville on my Tivo last night. It was called Five Broken Cameras.

A tiny part of a fucked up situation. I get the feeling Israel will continue on this course and then suddenly (and it's the only realistic thing I can hope for)... simply stop.

Edit: Unfortunately it's not currently available on iPlayer.
 
jimbobsmells said:
Ok so let's be clear on your position then. You are advocating Israel's response because Hamas 'poked the bear'? Yes I agree violence is getting them nowhere. So why would violence get Israel anywhere?
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The disturbing part is violence is actually getting Israel somewhere..-_-
 
Lafiel said:
The disturbing part is violence is actually getting Israel somewhere..-_-
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It is, yes.

1467176734.jpg
 
Scullibundo said:
Has this HuffPo article been posted yet?
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Ah ali rizvi. Most people have given you the answer but I remember this guy . I destroyed his argument on Facebook once. He is an ex Muslim who was broughth up in a very conservative family which led him to unsurprisingly leave Islam, if I was in his situation I would too, but he turned to the dawkins and Sam Harris style of extremism when he came out of out, which made his view as worse as his family who was extreme but in the polar opposition end.
 
On the subject of New Atheism for me personally I'm as strident as a /r/ atheist can be at times, and have had personal experience that justifies it to some extent, and have a low tolerance level for irrational thinking.. but it doesn't influence me to be bigoted towards muslims nor does it lead me to defending a out-right apartheid state because it has the pretensions of being a western democracy.
 
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