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[mercenar1e]

US public and media support for Israel doesn't end until

They realize that the long awaited messiah isn't coming, Jesus isn't rising from the grave and the end times are a crock of shit (along with everything else) lol that realization won't occur in my lifetime or yours.. Unfortunately the Palestinians are going to be living like this for many many years.

 

[The Adder]

That already happened. Made a bit of a fuss, then complete radio silence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

1. That was in 1968

2. I didn't mean forever. I just meant support for this current attempt at genocide.

They realize that the long awaited messiah isn't coming, Jesus isn't rising from the grave and the end times are a crock of shit (along with everything else) lol that realization won't occur in my lifetime or yours.. Unfortunately the Palestinians are going to be living like this for many many years.

You say to a man who is both American and a practicing Christian who does not support this fucking travesty. Thanks for the assumptions though.

 

[mercenar1e]

You say to a man who is both American and a practicing Christian who does not support this fucking travesty. Thanks for the assumptions though.

Your stance isn't shared by many and based on your comment you do realize that here in the US the support for Israel never wavers.. It's pretty damn obvious as to why that is but if you think Religion has nothing to do with it than feel free to live a life of ignorance.

 

[The Adder]

Your stance isn't shared by many and based on your comment you do realize that here in the US the support for Israel never wavers.. It's pretty damn obvious as to why that is but if you think Religion has nothing to do with it than feel free to live a life of ignorance.

If you think religion motivates it more than money, I'm not the ignorant one here.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Has this HuffPo article been posted yet?

 

[Jonm1010]

Has this HuffPo article been posted yet?

Yes. And it's garbage.

 

[Aaron]

Has this HuffPo article been posted yet?

Yes, and it's 100% bullshit.

 

[Messofanego]

Want to hear some politicians learned up on that hasbara manual?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16AIOUHc2o#t=1m24s

I want so much more soundbites of how they defend Israel.

 

[Amon37]

I'm trying to understand, what is it going to take to get isreal to stop?

Sanctions? Lol
They obviously don't care, and military action against them from other countries. I don't think that's right either?

 

[mercenar1e]

If you think religion motivates it more than money, I'm not the ignorant one here.

I'm well aware of the issue of money in politics and the powerful lobbyists like AIPAC and others that shape policy but again Religion plays a huge factor.

 

[Codeblue]

I'm trying to understand, what is it going to take to get isreal to stop?

Sanctions? Lol
They obviously don't care, and military action against them from other countries. I don't think that's right either?

I think sanctions would be a good place to start. Certainly better than the current method of appeasement.

Really, even a slap on the wrist would be progress.

I'm well aware of the issue of money in politics and the powerful lobbyists like AIPAC and others that shape policy but again Religion plays a huge factor.

I think this is especially true for public opinion. A good chunk of the US population are willing to let superstition guide how they feel about foreign policy.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Yes. And it's garbage.

Yes, and it's 100% bullshit.

Can you guys explain why/what parts are bullshit? Genuinely curious.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Want to hear some politicians learned up on that hasbara manual?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16AIOUHc2o#t=1m24s

I want so much more soundbites of how they defend Israel.

Everyone on that podium looked like someone held a gun to their head.

 

[dude]

https://twitter.com/ronnie_barkan/status/493928499778818048/photo/1

As an israeli anti occupation activist - Fuck this poster and who made it. Breaking the Silence are doing a lot of important work, and if they release they information they'll be DONE without achieving anything.

EDIT: Oh, It's Ronnie Barkan. Figures.

 

[Aaron]

Can you guys explain why/what parts are bullshit? Genuinely curious.

1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?
Needlessly provocative to garner early sympathy for Israel.

2. Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?
Uses evidence from Hamas old charter as proof, which Hamas has denounced. Like asking why slavery isn't enforced anymore.

3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?
Factually inaccurate. Claims Israel isn't good at civilians. They've actually out killed ISIS.

4. Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?
Uses old quote and mistranslation. UN inspection says Hamas does not use human shields.

5. Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?
More bullshit. Israel pulled their settlers from Gaza, but they never ended the occupation.

6. Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?
Ignores the fact that the reason people in Gaza can't get away from the bombardment is because the IDF attacks the hospitals and shelters they run to.

7. If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?
'Both sides do it' bullshit which has been proven untrue by the UNWA.

 

[Chichikov]

Can you guys explain why/what parts are bullshit? Genuinely curious.

I'm going to go quickly over those things since they've been covered before many times (though to be fair, it was mostly with HASBARA people I would have never persuaded anyway), let me know if you want me to get into greater details on any of these -

1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?
First of all, that's not true, Israel got quite a free rein to do whatever the fuck it wants, it mentions Syria, but Syria faced crippling international sanctions for years.
But in any case, it's a stupid line of defense, you can justify atrocities by pointing out it's not that only bad thing that happen in the world, That's just whataboutism.

2. Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?
The origin of the Israeli Palestinian conflict comes from 3 major political movements -
Zionism, Pan Arabism, Colonialism.
All secular movements.
Religion does get more and more involve in it, but its origin are secular.
Not sure why this point matter all that much, but whatever.

3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?
I don't think Israel try to kill civilians as a matter of policy, but Israel has been doing these types of bombing for a while now, they know with statistical certainty that such attacks will cause a very high number of civilian casualties and they do them all the same.

4. Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?
Hamas fire rockets from a densely populated area, that is true, but the demand that it "fight fairly" against such superior force is effectively asking them to commit suicide.
This is like the British complaining the Zulu warriors didn't line up against their maxim guns to get mowed down like gentlemen

5. Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?
Israel withdrew its settlements, but it still occupy it.
Israel does not recognize it as a free country, it controls its airspace and waters, it provide it water and electricity and even control its census.

6. Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?
Ahhh yeah, the good old "they're dying because Hamas spent all their money on rockets".
Hamas spend a smaller percentage of Gaza meager GDP on military than Israel.
More people die in Gaza because Israel has a much much stronger military.

7. If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?
LOL

 

[zer0blivion]

Can you guys explain why/what parts are bullshit? Genuinely curious.

This article should shed some light and provide context.
http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Many thanks for the responses.

 

[MisterFalcon]

This article should shed some light and provide context.
http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

That article is just as terrible.

-The ICJ nas not issued an opinion in 2004 about Israel's right to self defense

-Article 47 of the Hague regulations is not about occupation

-This ignores that during the ceasefire Hamas kidnapped Gilad Shalit

-Israel is described as having the ability to fight with no civilian casualties which is a fantasy.

-Quote of a report on South Lebanon as proof Hamas does not fire or store rockets in civilian areas while there are tons of images of Hamas doing exactly that.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why don't the Palestinians coordinate peaceful protest tactics so that this talk of rockets and kidnappings is no longer used against them to justify a response.

There's always a choice no matter how dire the situation.

 

[Toxi]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why don't the Palestinians coordinate peaceful protest tactics so that this talk of rockets and kidnappings is no longer used against them to justify a response.

There's always a choice.

Ask the folks in the West Bank.

 

[Aaron]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why don't the Palestinians coordinate peaceful protest tactics so that this talk of rockets and kidnappings is no longer used against them to justify a response.

There's always a choice no matter how dire the situation.

The peaceful protests on the West Bank just get people killed, and they're still losing their land. How is that a choice?

 

[Hitokage]

Man, not slaughtering civilians is just so hard for a modern military. Bombs these days are just too good!

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why don't the Palestinians coordinate peaceful protest tactics so that this talk of rockets and kidnappings is no longer used against them to justify a response.

There's always a choice no matter how dire the situation.

Such protests are illegal. Palestinians have no right to assemble under Israeli law.

 

[Discotheque]

every 2-3 years i'm reminded of how much i fucking hate israel. like i'm sure there are plenty of good citizens there but they are governed by a despicable group of people.

who are the powers (outside of israel and palestine, the latter of which will never get a voice) that can enact some change here? US? Saudi Arabia? genuinely curious.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Ask the folks in the West Bank.

The peaceful protests on the West Bank just get people killed, and they're still losing their land. How is that a choice?

Man, not slaughtering civilians is just so hard for a modern military. Bombs these days are just too good!

Such protests are illegal. Palestinians have no right to assemble under Israeli law.

To be honest none of these responses seem all that convincing. The protests led by Gandhi and MLK were not considered legal either and were met with violent reactions. Maybe they too would have resorted to violence if they were pushed hard enough but maybe not. Maybe they were committed to their means.

 

[SKINNER!]

US?

Doubt it unless AIPAC decides to call it a day.

Saudi Arabia?

Pffffft. They only give a shit about Palestine when they want to divert attention and cover up their own wrongdoings at home. The days of King Faisal and his massive cojones are loooong gone.

My guess? Maybe economic isolation from EU and China would force Israel into taking a step towards stability and the two-state solution...I guess? I don't know. Wishful thinking to be honest.

 

[Chichikov]

That article is just as terrible.

-The ICJ nas not issued an opinion in 2004 about Israel's right to self defense

-Article 47 of the Hague regulations is not about occupation

-This ignores that during the ceasefire Hamas kidnapped Gilad Shalit

-Israel is described as having the ability to fight with no civilian casualties which is a fantasy.

-Quote of a report on South Lebanon as proof Hamas does not fire or store rockets in civilian areas while there are tons of images of Hamas doing exactly that.

You're like a talking point generator, aren't you?

let's see -
The ICJ is its 2004 opinion says -

Self defense - Article 51 of the Charter - Attacks against Israel not imputable to a foreign State - Threat invoked to justify the construction of the wall originating within a territory over which Israel exercises control, Article 51 not relevant in the present case.
​

Article 47 reads -

ARTICLE 47 INVIOLABILITY OF RIGHTS

General

The position of Article 47 at the beginning of the Section dealing with occupied territories underlines the cardinal importance of the safeguards it proclaims. During the Second World War whole populations were excluded from the application of the laws governing occupation and were thus denied the safeguards provided by those laws and left at the mercy of the Occupying Power. In order to avoid a repetition of this state of affairs, the authors of the Convention made a point of giving these rules an absolute character. They will be considered in the following pages in the order in which they occur in the Convention.​

So yeah, that's 0 for 2, easily demonstrable, not really arguable.

I can go further down your points list, but it's just pointless (rimshot) you care about HASBARA and nothing else, but I just want people in this thread who can't be bothered researching your bullshit to rest assured that this is in fact bullshit, and nothing more.

 

[Carcetti]

To be honest none of these responses seem all that convincing. The protests led by Gandhi and MLK were not considered legal either and were met with violent reactions. Maybe they too would have resorted to violence if they were pushed hard enough but maybe not. Maybe they were committed to their means.

Gandhi and MLK were driving change inside their own societies and their own cities. The Palestinians would be peacefully protesting inside a giant prison camp to an occupying army that doesn't give a shit about their human rights.

 

[theignoramus]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why don't the Palestinians coordinate peaceful protest tactics so that this talk of rockets and kidnappings is no longer used against them to justify a response.

There's always a choice no matter how dire the situation.

Theyve done that already, to little or no avail.
The first intifadah in the late 80s started as a largely unarmed uprising against Israeli policies in the West Bank and Gaza.
Israel responded with overwhelming violence ,or, in the words of Yitzak Rabin "force, might, beatings."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/07/12/world/israel-declines-to-study-rabin-tie-to-beatings.html

At the start of the uprising, Mr. Rabin attracted wide attention when he said that Israeli soldiers would use ''force, might and beatings'' to quash the Palestinian revolt.

Mr. Rabin and senior military commanders have maintained that the beatings were allowed only while soldiers were trying to overpower and arrest Palestinians throwing rocks and firebombs. Once an arrest was made, they said, no further hitting or clubbing was permitted.

But his account has been contradicted by testimony at the trial of one officer, Col. Yehuda Meir, who is being court-martialed for reportedly ordering his troops to arrest Arabs and then break their arms and legs.

Soldiers testifying at Colonel Meir's trial said Mr. Rabin and other senior commanders told them privately that beatings should be used to punish Arabs known to be troublemakers.

Lieut. Eldad Ben-Moshe, a company commander under Colonel Meir, testified in April that he was told by Colonel Meir to ''break the arms and legs'' of Arabs ''because the detention camps are full.''

Fast forward to today and while Israel has scaled back the lethality of its attacks on unarmed protesters, it has no qualms about using brute force to smash unarmed protesters.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Gandhi and MLK were driving change inside their own societies and their own cities. The Palestinians would be peacefully protesting inside a giant prison camp to an occupying army that doesn't give a shit about their human rights.

MLK I suppose was driving for change in his society but Gandhi was fighting for independence from British rule.

 

[zer0blivion]

That article is just as terrible.

-The ICJ nas not issued an opinion in 2004 about Israel's right to self defense

-Article 47 of the Hague regulations is not about occupation

-This ignores that during the ceasefire Hamas kidnapped Gilad Shalit

-Israel is described as having the ability to fight with no civilian casualties which is a fantasy.

-Quote of a report on South Lebanon as proof Hamas does not fire or store rockets in civilian areas while there are tons of images of Hamas doing exactly that.

1.
No, Israel Does Not Have the Right to Self-Defense In International Law Against Occupied Palestinian Territory
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/8799/no-israel-does-not-have-the-right-to-self-defense-

2. It was a typo, It's article 42.
http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl....t&documentId=01D426B0086089BEC12563CD00516887

3.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...ates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians

4. Yeah, especially when the IDF considers everyone in Gaza is Hamas.
UN OCHA latest:
75% of Palestinian fatalities are civilians;
6% of Israeli fatalities are civilians.
http://bit.ly/1kjXvpT

5. There were 2 reports in this conflict of rockets being found in UNWRA schools. In both cases the schools were vacant and the rockets were removed. You're insinuating human shields so here's Amnesty International's findings:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-conflict-questions-and-answers-2014-07-25

The Israeli authorities claim that Hamas and Palestinian armed groups use Palestinian civilians in Gaza as “human shields”. Does Amnesty International have any evidence that this has occurred during the current hostilities?
Amnesty International is monitoring and investigating such reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks. In previous conflicts Amnesty International has documented that Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip in violation of international humanitarian law. Reports have also emerged during the current conflict of Hamas urging residents to ignore Israeli warnings to evacuate. However, these calls may have been motivated by a desire to minimize panic and displacement, in any case, such statements are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as “human shields” for fighters, munitions, or military equipment. Under international humanitarian law even if “human shields” are being used Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.

Survivors of massacre in Khuza’a say Israeli forces used Palestinians as human shields
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/survivors-massacre-palestinians.html

 

[Aaron]

To be honest none of these responses seem all that convincing. The protests led by Gandhi and MLK were not considered legal either and were met with violent reactions. Maybe they too would have resorted to violence if they were pushed hard enough but maybe not. Maybe they were committed to their means.

In the latest protest, the IDF gunned down a 14 year old boy. They're not getting hosed or tear gassed from their protests. They're getting murdered. The situation isn't really applicable to what MLK and his followers went through, while Gandhi's protests came at a time when the British were already losing their grip on India. There were other issues for them to deal with, while the IDF can focus their complete attention on devastating Gaza. They're just not comparable. You need to look at these situations from a larger perspective.

 

[zer0blivion]

every 2-3 years i'm reminded of how much i fucking hate israel. like i'm sure there are plenty of good citizens there but they are governed by a despicable group of people.

who are the powers (outside of israel and palestine, the latter of which will never get a voice) that can enact some change here? US? Saudi Arabia? genuinely curious.

You hate Zionism, not Israel.

 

[funkypie]

OMG. Anyone watching CNN right now? There was a bomb dropped about 500 yards from a live tv reporter. Crazy. Dude ducked down, obviuosly. Crazy.

In the midst of a bombing campaign. You can hear the drones overhead.

the best 'defence' is the best offence.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

In the latest protest, the IDF gunned down a 14 year old boy. They're not getting hosed or tear gassed from their protests. They're getting murdered. The situation isn't really applicable to what MLK and his followers went through, while Gandhi's protests came at a time when the British were already losing their grip on India. There were other issues for them to deal with, while the IDF can focus their complete attention on devastating Gaza. They're just not comparable. You need to look at these situations from a larger perspective.

All I'm saying is if either of those men were leading the Palestinians today would they come to a point where they resign that violence must be met with violence or would they remain committed?

You're making light of what those movements suffered. Firebombings of churches, lynching, and so on. To say it was tear gas and hoses is a god damn insult to those who died in the Civil Rights Movement.

 

[theignoramus]

To be honest none of these responses seem all that convincing. The protests led by Gandhi and MLK were not considered legal either and were met with violent reactions. Maybe they too would have resorted to violence if they were pushed hard enough but maybe not. Maybe they were committed to their means.

"Force,might, beatings."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm95gqdiwJQ

"Force, might and beatings": Indelible images of the first Intifada

We often hear Palestinians lectured – by the likes of New York Times columnist Nick Kristof among others – that if they only acted like Gandhi, the Israelis would be impressed and suddenly grant Palestinians their usurped rights.
It’s important to remember – and teach – about the first Intifada for so many reasons, but also because it gives the lie to that silly, condescending and constantly recycled refrain.

The Israeli violence against the completely unarmed first Intifada was intended specifically – as Rabin made clear – to crush any form of Gandhi-like protest, and Israel’s brutality perhaps more than anything else, convinced the next generation of Palestinians that armed resistance was unavoidable.

 

[funkypie]

MLK I suppose was driving for change in his society but Gandhi was fighting for independence from British rule.

the difference is, the british did not behave like animals and slaughter him and his followers.

 

[Aaron]

All I'm saying is if either of those men were leading the Palestinians today would they come to a point where they resign that violence must be met with violence or would they remain committed?

You're making light of what those movements suffered. Firebombings of churches, lynching, and so on. To say it was tear gas and hoses is a god damn insult to those who died in the Civil Rights Movement.

You're not exactly being kind to the more than a thousand palestinians who the IDF have bombed by saying they would have been fine if Hamas had just been a little nicer.

 

[Hitokage]

Nonviolent resistance is an appeal to sympathetic elements in the political power structure. If you don't have a hook to go on then you're shit out of luck.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

the difference is, the british did not behave like animals and slaughter him and his followers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_Bazaar_massacre

Some of you guys seem to like making light of nonviolent protests achievements. The fact is that these movements were met with extreme violence but they did not waver.

You're not exactly being kind to the more than a thousand palestinians who the IDF have bombed by saying they would have been fine if Hamas had just been a little nicer.

When did I say they would have been fine? I'm questioning if nonviolent protest would have been a viable path. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[SKINNER!]

the difference is, the british did not behave like animals and slaughter him and his followers.

Read a history book.
India, Yemen, Egypt...British Empire did a whole load of crazy shit when they were occupying other countries.

 

[Real Hero]

Only protests that would make any difference are ones from within isreal

 

[Aaron]

When did I say they would have been fine? I'm questioning if nonviolent protest would have been a viable path. Don't put words in my mouth.

And we've been telling you Palestine tired that, have been trying that, and it hasn't worked.

 

[Zen]

For anyone curious about how reputable Finkelstein actually is, and the character/reputation of Dershowitz

http://youtu.be/F3XXeIa8rC4

 

[Hitokage]

And we've been telling you Palestine tired that, have been trying that, and it hasn't worked.

Most fatally, such efforts have not gotten traction in the American media, public, or political spheres, which removes the possibility of producing effective pressure from the outside even if the people directly oppressing you cannot be convinced.

Other nations might be sympathetic, but the US holds the key UN veto vote and is Israel's primary ally and funding source.

 

[stilgar]

holy shit. Utter delusion.

Did you work with them? I did. They're way more professional than yor average TV journalist.

Again, I'm not saying they're not biased (and who isn't?). Just that when they report something as a fact, it is very credible.

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

I don't care if Israel is in the wrong with settlements, fact is you don't respond violently to an aggressor with superior firepower. You will loose and you will kill your fellow people.

Let's look at a similar conflict involving occupied land. Ukraine.

Ukraine isn't about to start firing artillery rounds into Russia despite Russian led separatists taking Ukrainian land. Russia will crush them into the ground. So what does Ukraine do? They lobby the Americans, they lobby the Europeans. They are not aggressive and have not resorted to terrorist activities.

What is that getting them? International support and help. What's happened to the Russian led separatists? They are terrorist scum now. They shoot down innocent airliners and have internationally embarrassed Russia who are now facing up to more sanctions.

How many rockets/artillery/mortars has Ukraine lobbed over the border? None.

So how about we stop acting like Israel is reason these conflicts are constantly happening and realise Hamas has taken a serious level of responsibility over the Palestinian people and rather than help them, they have completely fucked them by constantly aggravating a very very dangerous bear.


In other news, Israel's Iron Dome defence system is now world class, been one of the only truly tested and proven defence shields in the entire world. Combining their experience and learning from this system with their new Arrow ICBM defence system. Israel is now a world leader in missile defence.

 

[squidyj]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but why don't the Palestinians coordinate peaceful protest tactics so that this talk of rockets and kidnappings is no longer used against them to justify a response.

There's always a choice no matter how dire the situation.

You might enjoy West Bank, same abuse, new non-violent flavor.

 

[Hitokage]

"Don't challenge the man hitting you with the bigger stick, or it'll be your fault he's hitting you with that stick instead of a lamentable misfortune."

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

And we've been telling you Palestine tired that, have been trying that, and it hasn't worked.

Most fatally, such efforts have not gotten traction in the American media, public, or political spheres, which removes the possibility of producing effective pressure from the outside even if the people directly oppressing you cannot be convinced.

But the point I'm trying to make is you could make the exact same statements about past movements. If you read the link you would see that the British bribed and covered up their massacre.