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[Phoenician_Viking]

I don´t like how Zaheer could tell the others about Korra´s location. He should not be able to speak when he is in the spiritual world.

The preview is ugh.

Spoiler

I like that Asami is doing something but i would rather she did it because she was capable not because shoddy workmanship. I really cringed when she broke the pipe and made a hole in the ground. I want Asami from first season back.

Oh yeah, after re-watching ATLA i just remembered that i did not like Katara then, and i still don´t like her now, in neither shows.

 

[AniHawk]

Story reason: Probably takes him a few seconds to generate it and most fights have shit getting chucked at him the entire time so he can't gather the energy to do it.

Plotting reasons: The writers want to have Mako and Bolin evolve in their fighting so they can beat those benders and Lightning bending is his trump card. He'll beat one with lightning in the last few episodes, probably the waterbender.

i seem to recall that the few times we saw him do it, he kind of had to prepare for it. it wasn't as automatic as firebending. only azula's been able to zap people with relative ease. i don't even recall ozai doing it in a fight even when he had his comet power up.

 

[Peagles]

i seem to recall that the few times we saw him do it, he kind of had to prepare for it. it wasn't as automatic as firebending. only azula's been able to zap people with relative ease. i don't even recall ozai doing it in a fight even when he had his comet power up.

I think he does it once, cos there's that bit where Aang holds it for a bit, looks like he's gonna redirect it back at Ozai, but eventually points it away from him.

 

[AniHawk]

I think he does it once, cos there's that bit where Aang holds it for a bit, looks like he's gonna redirect it back at Ozai, but eventually points it away from him.

ah i forgot about that. good point. i think i confused it for when zuko redirects ozai's lightning.

 

[TangerineCloud]

Story reason: Probably takes him a few seconds to generate it and most fights have shit getting chucked at him the entire time so he can't gather the energy to do it.

Plotting reasons: The writers want to have Mako and Bolin evolve in their fighting so they can beat those benders and Lightning bending is his trump card. He'll beat one with lightning in the last few episodes, probably the waterbender.

I wouldn't be surprised if the lethality of lightning-bending has also played a role in its absence. IIRC, Zuko and Aang are the only characters so far who have actually been struck by lightning. Aang literally died when he was hit, and Zuko collapsed to the ground and convulsed in pain until Katara was able to heal him. I can't imagine Nickelodeon would allow its protags to toy around with that kind of power regularly.

edit: gah, forgot about Amon.

 

[Veelk]

i seem to recall that the few times we saw him do it, he kind of had to prepare for it. it wasn't as automatic as firebending. only azula's been able to zap people with relative ease. i don't even recall ozai doing it in a fight even when he had his comet power up.

Nope. I wouldn't say it's as instantaneous as firemen ding, but mako has been shown to be able to utilize lightning bending easier than anyone else. Azula, ozai, and iroh all had to move their arms my wide circles before they could generate a current. Mako did it while immobilized from amon.

 

[AniHawk]

Nope. I wouldn't say it's as instantaneous as firemen ding, but mako has been shown to be able to utilize lightning bending easier than anyone else. Azula, ozai, and iroh all had to move their arms my wide circles before they could generate a current. Mako did it while immobilized from amon.

it still took him some prep time. i forget how much time it took to prepare it during the car chase in season 1, but when he's at the plant he kind of needs to 'charge' before doing it, and he seems to need to do the same against amon.

even if it takes a second for him to do, that's valuable time he wouldn't have in a fight.

 

[Veelk]

it still took him some prep time. i forget how much time it took to prepare it during the car chase in season 1, but when he's at the plant he kind of needs to 'charge' before doing it, and he seems to need to do the same against amon.

even if it takes a second for him to do, that's valuable time he wouldn't have in a fight.

Depends on the situation. If lightning bending was impractical because of a 1 second charge time, Azula would have never used it since she needs like 5 seconds. Besides, the real weakness is the arm motions, since they are a vulnerable position in a fight and obviously telegraph what your going to do.

Either way, mako is the most effective known lightning bender. If all he needs is a single second of preparation, he's got it easy compared to other lightning benders

 

[AniHawk]

Depends on the situation. If lightning bending was impractical because of a 1 second charge time, Azula would have never used it since she needs like 5 seconds. Besides, the real weakness is the arm motions, since they are a vulnerable position in a fight and obviously telegraph what your going to do.

Either way, mako is the most effective known lightning bender. If all he needs is a single second of preparation, he's got it easy compared to other lightning benders

i don't remember every time azula used lightning, but i do recall the two times she hit someone were strategic shots (catching aang off-guard and shooting it at non-combatant katara).

 

[Nintendoga]

I wouldn't be surprised if the lethality of lightning-bending has also played a role in its absence. IIRC, Zuko and Aang are the only characters so far who have actually been struck by lightning. Aang literally died when he was hit, and Zuko collapsed to the ground and convulsed in pain until Katara was able to heal him. I can't imagine Nickelodeon would allow its protags to toy around with that kind of power regularly.

edit: gah, forgot about Amon.

Speaking of Amon shouldn't that lightning strike have killed him? Mako did hit him point-blank with it right? Or am I forgetting something, haven't watched S1 in awhile.

 

[Sketchbag]

Speaking of Amon shouldn't that lightning strike have killed him? Mako did hit him point-blank with it right? Or am I forgetting something, haven't watched S1 in awhile.

Amon is able to control his body very well. He can blood bend users without moving that much (how he basically controls fights). He can also prevent things from affecting him as noticed when he was blood bended against. He was able to fight through it. I think the same principle applies to routing energy through his body.

 

[Satch]

i just remembered that time Amon walked through Tarrlok's bloodbending and then i came in here to post about it and you guys are already talking about it


i miss him yall

im never going to get over it

 

[Admiral Woofington]

ch....he wasn't that great.

 

[Satch]

ch....he wasn't that great.

ch...

 

[Trey]

The impracticality of shooting lightning mid fight is always the reasoning I used. It was seldom used in AtLA, and there were 300 percent more lightning capable people in that.

i miss him yall

im never going to get over it

thewirekidtearspoiler.gif

He had unlimited swagger.

Unlimited

Swagger

 

[fireside]

i just remembered that time Amon walked through Tarrlok's bloodbending and then i came in here to post about it and you guys are already talking about it

best scene in avatar?

yep

 

[AniHawk]

two best amon moments, right there.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Amon was a little beast.

 

[m_shortpants]

best scene in avatar?

yep

The creepy music made that one of the best scenes in the series.

 

[Moaradin]

Amon was so cool before that last few episodes.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Avatar's way of making somebody 2cool4school though is to give them a mask. I liked Amon, but he reminded me too much of the villain in Fable 1.

 

[JDSN]

The thing that makes bloodbending so horrible is the sound it makes.

 

[sabertoothzombie]

I just got caught up to episode 9. I still don't understand

Spoiler

the red lotus'

motivation. I understand what he said, I comprehend the words, but

Spoiler

"The world should naturally be in chaos" makes absolutely no sense.

Are they just crazy?

 

[Veelk]

i don't remember every time azula used lightning, but i do recall the two times she hit someone were strategic shots (catching aang off-guard and shooting it at non-combatant katara).

I do, and both of those had the required time fulfillment. You see her charging it up for 5 second against Zuko before deciding to direct it in a marginally different direction, and Aang's transformation took a lengthy amount of time, which she used to prepare her strike. Just because it's hard to use strategically doesn't mean it's impossible, and Azula is good enough to know when to do it.

You're basically proving my point you realize. With an overly long, delayed attack that involves awkward dancing in it's preparation, Azula manages to take down the goddamn avatar.

Mako only has a one second charge up, and the chump is still useless with it.

 

[Mononoke]

Story reason: Probably takes him a few seconds to generate it and most fights have shit getting chucked at him the entire time so he can't gather the energy to do it.

Plotting reasons: The writers want to have Mako and Bolin evolve in their fighting so they can beat those benders and Lightning bending is his trump card. He'll beat one with lightning in the last few episodes, probably the waterbender.

Pretty much. But when you are fighting against someone like Zaheer or his cohorts, you pretty much have too use whatever you can. Mako not using lightning during these dangerous fights is pretty silly.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I just got caught up to episode 9. I still don't understand

Spoiler

the red lotus'

motivation. I understand what he said, I comprehend the words, but

Spoiler

"The world should naturally be in chaos" makes absolutely no sense.

Are they just crazy?

Just accept they're immensely generic as villains and despair at the inadequacy of any and all antagonists post-Amon reveal.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Amon was so cool before that last few episodes.

The reveal didn't ruin him for me. The back story, motivation and that exit didn't detract from badassedry. and this

made all the pro-bending stuff worth it. seeing it get crashed and this motherfucking climbing up into the blimp dodging fire like it's nothing, MMM

 

[Admiral Woofington]

They're generic villains. They attempt to give us the 'morally grey' aspect to their resolution, but at the end of the day they're just generic villains.They at least give us cool fights though.

 

[Trey]

Generic? I dunno. Zaheer actually has a motivation that he's strongly convicted to, so that vaults him over 70 percent of villains.

They're fine to me. Now that Korra knows what Zaheer wanted her for and rebuffed him, the stakes change some. How Zaheer and his entourage handle things going forward will be telling.

 

[Moaradin]

I rather have generic villains with good execution than what we got in Book 1. Amon had so much wasted potential.

 

[Mononoke]

The reveal didn't ruin him for me. The back story, motivation and that exit didn't detract from badassedry. and this



made all the pro-bending stuff worth it. seeing it get crashed and this motherfucking climbing up into the blimp dodging fire like it's nothing, MMM

I still think Amon is a really good villain, despite the weak ending. It doesn't change the fact that his design was cool, and he had a great presence. And just like Zaheer, he was fun to watch. I don't even think Amon's backstory is bad per se. Was it not as good as it could have been? Sure (I'm talking purely about it from a plot point of view). Revenge plots are pretty lame, especially when the audience isn't given enough time with the person to see them suffer, to understand why they have the hatred they have. But on paper it wasn't so bad, and could have worked.

It was just the execution was so terrible. I just think that finale in general was a disaster.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I still think Amon is a really good villain, despite the weak ending. It doesn't change the fact that his design was cool, and he had a great presence. And just like Zaheer, he was fun to watch. I don't even think Amon's backstory is bad per se. Was it not as good as it could have been? Sure (I'm talking purely about it from a plot point of view). Revenge plots are pretty lame, especially when the audience isn't given enough time with the person to see them suffer, to understand why they have the hatred they have. But on paper it wasn't so bad, and could have worked.

It was just the execution was so terrible. I just think that finale in general was a disaster.

It's problematic when Amon's invented back story (gifted ability by the spirits) is better than his actual back-story (a poor revenge plot and a skillset which is just a slightly better version of the already boring Tarlok). They'd really have been better just playing Amon straight, the twist was so underwhelming that it retrospectively damaged him as a character and as a presence.

 

[zeemumu]

Generic? I dunno. Zaheer actually has a motivation that he's strongly convicted to, so that vaults him over 70 percent of villains.

They're fine to me. Now that Korra knows what Zaheer wanted her for and rebuffed him, the stakes change some. How Zaheer and his entourage handle things going forward will be telling.

The generic villains are the villains who know that what they're doing is bad but they don't care because they're doing it for selfish reasons. Then there are villains like Zaheer who legitimately believe that what they are doing is right.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It does shatter my suspension of disbelief when Zaheer's conception of what is right is so obviously crazy. At the very least Unalak wanted power and pre-reveal Amon wanted social revolution, I can buy both of those. Zaheer's motivation is "I want fuck shit up real bad because, y' know, that's like, life, maaaan", it makes him feel like the Big Lebowski's evil twin. You can create villains that are intending to do good, or what they perceive as good, but Zaheer is really not a good example of that being done convincingly.

I'll give him a pass for having decent fight scenes, though. Better than Unalak's.

 

[Mononoke]

It's problematic when Amon's invented back story (gifted ability by the spirits) is better than his actual back-story (a poor revenge plot and a skillset which is just a slightly better version of the already boring Tarlok). They'd really have been better just playing Amon straight, the twist was so underwhelming that it retrospectively damaged him as a character and as a presence.

Well you have a point. I was just talking about the man himself (the leader of the revolution). But yeah, the explanation for his ability to take away bending (and how that was tied into a weak revenge plot involving blood bending) was pretty fuckin atrocious. Amon leading a revolution (based on his motivation for revenge) is certainly underwhelming. But it's not that out there of a motivation. But yeah, the way it was executed, Amon's ability + the explanation was pretty terrible.

 

[Trey]

Zaheer's ideology makes sense to me because entropy (disorder) is the natural order of things, over time. And he has a point with the corrupt leaders thing. It's a typical anarchist outlook that has some rationalization to it. And Zaheer himself is no slouch, so it lends credence to his initiative.

So for me it's interesting, and an opportunity for Korra to grow as a character depending on she handles this existential threat.

 

[Mononoke]

Zaheer's ideology makes sense to me because entropy (disorder) is the natural order of things, over time. And he has a point with the corrupt leaders thing. It's a typical anarchist outlook that has some rationalization to it. And Zaheer himself is no slouch, so it lends credence to his initiative.

So for me it's interesting, and an opportunity for Korra to grow as a character depending on she handles this existential threat.

It also makes sense given the era that the world currently is in. You have old kingdoms and modern governments emerging. You have the industrialization of the world as well. It just seems like the perfect environment for this kind of discourse.

 

[Mr-Joker]

This week episode was pretty good, well until Korra got impatient and wanted to rush into things.

I just got caught up to episode 9. I still don't understand

Spoiler

the red lotus'

motivation. I understand what he said, I comprehend the words, but

Spoiler

"The world should naturally be in chaos" makes absolutely no sense.

Are they just crazy?

They're bad guys, they're always crazy.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Zaheer's ideology makes sense to me because entropy (disorder) is the natural order of things, over time. And he has a point with the corrupt leaders thing. It's a typical anarchist outlook that has some rationalization to it. And Zaheer himself is no slouch, so it lends credence to his initiative.

So for me it's interesting, and an opportunity for Korra to grow as a character depending on she handles this existential threat.

No, that's not the anarchist outlook. Genuine political anarchists in our world, as opposed to 4chan's finest, didn't see anarchy as a chaotic system - their conception was of ordered worker's communes, usually. Anarchy meant no rulers, but no rulers in the sense that everyone consented to the decisions of the community because those decisions resulted entirely from the community, and a community everyone identified with because there were no social or class distinctions. Bakunin never said "lol, fuck everything, chaooooos". So no, Zaheer's ideology has no real comparative with regards to our world. Why? Because it's just obviously total nonsense. If anything, Amon was far closer to a genuine conception of an anarchist revolution (had it not been for the stupid reveal).

 

[AniHawk]

I do, and both of those had the required time fulfillment. You see her charging it up for 5 second against Zuko before deciding to direct it in a marginally different direction, and Aang's transformation took a lengthy amount of time, which she used to prepare her strike. Just because it's hard to use strategically doesn't mean it's impossible, and Azula is good enough to know when to do it.

You're basically proving my point you realize. With an overly long, delayed attack that involves awkward dancing in it's preparation, Azula manages to take down the goddamn avatar.

i'm saying it only made sense for her to use it strategically.

Mako only has a one second charge up, and the chump is still useless with it.

mako only used it strategically too. in every case someone was hit by lightning in this show, they were caught off-guard (i just remembered azula struck down iroh the same way, correct?). it's not the thing you want to use in the middle of a fight like this goon did:

 

[Htown]

like, there are people who basically don't believe in national governments TODAY

look at all this "sovereign citizen" stuff in the US, where there's this group of people that literally think the highest valid legal authority is their local sheriff

I just picture Zaheer as somebody who thinks everything was better back when the Avatar first showed up, when everybody was chillin in small villages or clustered around lion turtles

 

[Gorillaz]

New episode had me

the whole time

Most likely mentioned but the Zaheer thing obviously makes sense to a degree, since for a society to grow and evolve it takes a form of breaking it down to it's bare and rebuilding it from there. Every revolution whether society or industry wise, had to go through a sense of "chaos and correction". However it all comes down to timing.

I think he's right and wrong at the same time.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

like, there are people who basically don't believe in national governments TODAY

look at all this "sovereign citizen" stuff in the US, where there's this group of people that literally think the highest valid legal authority is their local sheriff

I just picture Zaheer as somebody who thinks everything was better back when the Avatar first showed up, when everybody was chillin in small villages or clustered around lion turtles

If this is true, it needs better explanation, because Zaheer didn't say "I want us to return to a form of primitive anarchist communes", or even a less glib version as "things were better when we lead simple lives, where people worked together freely and peacefully without the need of kings and orders". He just said there should be chaos. That's a shitty motive.

 

[m_shortpants]

Got this from Reddit:

As we all know, the names used in Avatar are full of meaning and determined characteristics. I'm not sure if this has been done yet, but I'm going to go into the meaning of the name "Zaheer."
Zaheer (also spelled Zahir) is of Middle Eastern descent and has close ties to Islam.
Zahir is most notably known as a school of thought regarding the Quran. It is defined as the exoteric or apparent meaning of the Quran). This can tie back to Zaheer as a character. He uses the teachings of Guru Laghima as justification of his actions and endeavors. Zaheer uses the words and poems of Laghima in a literal sense. Instead of finding a deeper meaning in the statement that new growth cannot exist without the destruction of the old, he takes it at face value meaning they need to destroy the current system. Perhaps the interpretation could play a large role in the fight between the Red Lotus and the "system."
One of the most prolific proponents to the Ẓāhirī school of thought was Ibn Hazm aka al-Andalusī aẓ-Ẓāhirī. (Notice Zahir in the name). Hazm had a distinct ideology. Along with literalism, years of being surrounded by powerful figures he had "sad skepticism about human nature and the capacity of human beings to deceive and oppress" and that "with men resided only corruption." This is in line with Zaheer's view of authority. Using Lord Acton's words, "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely." Hazm even stated that you should "not use your energy except for a cause more noble than yourself" to "help the oppressed" which is exactly what Zaheer is doing. Hazm also wrote about the properties of sounds, which could maybe be the sub-skill of airbending everyone is asking for?
I'm not really great with long explanations and stuff, but I hope this was enough. I will be doing an analysis of other character names later on, hopefully they get better. Comment what you think about it and/or any additions/changes to my theories.
Thanks for reading!

Also, a tribute to the true equalist brother, Lieutenant No-Name Sparky Sticks

 

[AniHawk]

If this is true, it needs better explanation, because Zaheer didn't say "I want us to return to a form of primitive anarchist communes", or even a less glib version as "things were better when we lead simple lives, where people worked together freely and peacefully without the need of kings and orders". He just said there should be chaos. That's a shitty motive.

he didn't want chaos, he wanted to start from scratch, and acknowledges chaos as the way for it.

in book 2, 'chaos' was tied in with 'evil' and i think with book 3 they're trying to distance themselves from that by showing chaos may be necessary in some cases.

 

[Trey]

No, that's not the anarchist outlook. Genuine political anarchists in our world, as opposed to 4chan's finest, didn't see anarchy as a chaotic system - their conception was of ordered worker's communes, usually. Anarchy meant no rulers, but no rulers in the sense that everyone consented to the decisions of the community because those decisions resulted entirely from the community, and a community everyone identified with because there were no social or class distinctions. Bakunin never said "lol, fuck everything, chaooooos". So no, Zaheer's ideology has no real comparative with regards to our world. Why? Because it's just obviously total nonsense. If anything, Amon was far closer to a genuine conception of an anarchist revolution (had it not been for the stupid reveal).

I don't think we disagree, which is why I used the term typical. But we'll work with your framework.

Zaheer sees chaos as a means to an end - of spiritually freeing oneself of terrestrial concepts. With the lack of government and the opening of spirit portals, the age of industrialism would recede and in its place would man find true enlightenment by once again mingling with the spirit world.

 

[CreeperBlocks]

two best amon moments, right there.

Is Amon still the best Korra Villain? Yes.

Spoiler

That Murder-Suicide at the end of Book One was fucking dark even for a kids show.

I'm not too sure on Zaheer though, there's gotta be more to this guy. Hopefully the last few episodes redeem him as a villain.

 

[Gorillaz]

Even with how shitty they did him, Amon is still the top "bad" guy in the avatar universe altogether. Zaheer might give him a run for his money depending on how they stick the landing on the philosophical side of things in this but for a physical threat? Amon was it.

 

[Veelk]

i'm saying it only made sense for her to use it strategically.

mako only used it strategically too. in every case someone was hit by lightning in this show, they were caught off-guard (i just remembered azula struck down iroh the same way, correct?). it's not the thing you want to use in the middle of a fight like this goon did:

It only makes sense to use any attack strategically. That's what strategy is. Using attacks sensibly. And strategy does not necessarily mean 'surprise attack'.

Mako's no-motion, 1 second charge means he has the ability to use it strategically in far more ways than Azula did. Ozai managed to use it against Aang and against Zuko when Zuko had him on the ropes with his swords and Azula used it against Zuko in their very first fight at the beginning of Season 2. Those weren't surprise attacks, since his opponents were aware of him, and it was't a bad shot either. Both of them would have been dead if they hadn't known lightning redirect. Azula also would have killed Zuko in the middle of their fight where, again, Zuko was aware of Azula, if Iroh hadn't stepped in and redirected it. The goon is a different story since, with Amon that close, it doesn't matter whether he had fire or lightning or water or earth bended. Once Amon gets that close, it's over, so using lightning in that instance was not wrong, it was just futile.

So, no, you're wrong that lightning can only be used as a surprise attack. Your kind of strawmanning here a bit. Just because a lightning bending failed once or can fail in some situations, that means it's a super risky technique mako would be an idiot to use, even though other people have used a far more complicated version of it in similar sitautions to good effect?

No. There is no other way of looking at this except how it is: Despite the fact that Mako's lightning is far more practical than TLA's lightning bending, he doesn't use it as much. Either A. The situations are somehow far more drastic that it is more dangerous for him to use lightning bending despite it's new convienence or B. He's just a far less effective fighter.

 

[AniHawk]

It only makes sense to use any attack strategically. That's what strategy is. Using attacks sensibly. And strategy does not mean 'surprise attack'.

Mako's no-motion, 1 second charge means he has the ability to use it strategically in far more ways than Azula did. Ozai managed to use it against Aang and against Zuko when Zuko had him on the ropes with his swords and Azula used it against Zuko in their very first fight at the beginning of Season 2. Those weren't surprise attacks, since his opponents were aware of him, and it was't a bad shot either. Both of them would have been dead if they hadn't known lightning redirect. Azula also would have killed Zuko in the middle of their fight where, again, Zuko was aware of Azula, if Iroh hadn't stepped in and redirected it. The goon is a different story since, with Amon that close, it doesn't matter whether he had fire or lightning or water or earth bended. Once Amon gets that close, it's over, so using lightning in that instance was not wrong, it was just futile.

So, no, you're wrong that lightning can only be used as a surprise attack. Your kind of strawmanning here a bit. Just because a lightning bending failed once or can fail in some situations, that means it's a super risky technique mako would be an idiot to use, even though other people have used a far more complicated version of it in similar sitautions to good effect?

No. There is no other way of looking at this except how it is: Despite the fact that Mako's lightning is far more practical than TLA's lightning bending, he doesn't use it as much. Either A. The situations are somehow far more drastic that it is more dangerous for him to use lightning bending despite it's new convienence or B. He's just a far less effective fighter.

those are good points. i think it should be really apparent that he's not as good a fighter as anyone from atla. i don't think anyone really is nor should be (except maybe lin). i doubt he is cool with straight-up murdering anyone either, which ozai and azula thought was a pretty rad idea. the only time he used it against a human opponent was when the alternative was amon winning. maybe that was a rookie mistake and he realizes he could have killed the dude. maybe being a cop instilled the belief of taking someone in for questioning versus beating them into submission.

so it's probably all three of those things in tandem. at least azula and ozai had time to know how to work their lightning into fighting techniques. mako wouldn't really have the time or skill to do that (who would spar against a lightningbender?). strategically it would make no sense if he just starts shooting off crap.