Getting lost/being stuck in a game was bad all this time?

nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
I hear this so often lately. Seems that the moment someone is lost in a game, or stuck at a puzzle, he immediately thinks of it as something bad, like bad game design. Getting lost/stuck isn't fun right? But what is fun? Having your hand hold through the whole game until you see the ending sequence? What about challenge?

I mean, is the ending sequence the whole point of a game or the content of the game itself? All this time i thought that finding your way after being lost, or figuring out what to do after being stuck, was rewarding or something. Why is going from one cutscene to the next without some effort is fun for so many people?
 
A lot of people just want to be entertained and move from checkpoint to checkpoint. Sometimes I'm okay with this, sometimes not. I read about people playing Fez now (it's a PS+ freebie) and resort to guides when they're stuck. This is one game where you ruin the experience by doing so, but for some people a roadblock is a no-go.
 
jackmurray said:
If you're lost in an area in a game, and the game is giving you zero indication of what to do, the game has fucked up.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the game may be giving you subtle indications of what to do/where to go, and you might have overlooked those hints.
 
nkarafo said:
I hear this so often lately. Seems that the moment someone is lost in a game, or stuck at a puzzle, he immediately thinks of it as something bad, like bad game design. Getting lost/stuck isn't fun right? But what is fun? Having your hand hold through the whole game until you see the ending sequence? What about challenge?

I mean, is the ending sequence the whole point of a game or the content of the game itself? All this time i thought that finding your way after being lost, or figuring out what to do after being stuck, was rewarding or something. Why is going from one cutscene to the next without some effort is fun for so many people?
Click to expand...

The REmake asks you at the start of the game if you prefer mountain climbing or hiking in regards to the difficulty of the game, and that's pretty much the perfect response to this. Having a good time and being challenged aren't mutually exclusive when it comes to video games.
 
All depends on the game, if you're truly lost and confused (Thief 2014's hub city for example) it's bad level design and it's nothing but frustrating. If you feel like you're on an adventure (Dragon's Dogma, Metroid) it's wonderful.
 
depends on the type of game it is... If it's the rare game that is both story focused and has a story worth experiencing (TLOU) then I would be against the game design allowing you to get lost or stuck too often.

generally speaking, though, I think games are far more interesting and engaging if they present you with tools and mechanics and then ask you to address the challenges yourself, rather than being led around by the nose. I'm definitely a bit old school, I guess.
 
LoZ Wind Waker had you locate Trifotce shards, I was able to find most of them on my own but if it weren't for the internet I think I'd have stopped.

Maybe I didn't pick up on the clues but I felt like the game poorly gave you hints for the locations.
 
Nostalgia colors it up a little bit but yeah, being stuck sucked always. I remember it took me like 2 years to beat the original RE because I was stuck near the end and there was no internet guide to look it up back then. It is however a nice feeling when you finally get it after hours/weeks of thinking about it and trying. Not worth the frustrationg before it though. So I'm very thanfull for the guides that are easily available these days.
 
It depends on why you're stuck. Bad game design would be stuff like invisible walls, infinitely respawning baddies and puzzles that are so obtuse that when you solve them you still don't understand the logic.

Good game design makes you feel satisfaction for solving the problem, or silly for not solving it sooner.
 
I remember being stuck in the original Resident Evil for a couple of days. I was exploring the whole mansion again and again in order to find a clue. The opened areas became so familiar for me that, when i finally figure it out, just seeing new rooms was incredibly rewarding experience for me.

Same with Doom. The enemies wasn't your only opponent. The levels themselves were probably the hardest opponent. Solving a difficult level that was holding me back for days and going in a new level was an amazing feeling for me.

Going from check point A to check point B with no effort is simply no fun (for me). And when i say effort i don't only mean hard to kill enemies. Challenging level design is what i love about many video games mostly.
 
There is no reward for finding your way around a horrible map design.
I play a lot of RPG, and even at its worst, you still know where to go next from the plot/hint from villagers.
But when this stuff happens in other genres like FPS/TPS...then yeah, you have effed up.
Map designs for these games are consisted of rooms and loading screens.
How can you mess such a simple concept up like that, and create a situation when the player can be lost/stuck?
 
Prior to the internet when I absolutely got stuck I would read through one of those guides that were always in the game sections at stores.
 
The best games allow you to get lost in them. It creates a literal 'epic feeling' world.

R.I.P Hand drawn maps.

Original_Zelda_Game_Map_Drawn_by_Tenchisaotome.jpg
Click to expand...
 
It depends really. When I was in elementary school, I went over to a classmates house. He busted out LTTP, and stated he had been stuck in this one particular dungeon for a year. Does that mean LTTP is poorly designed? Probably not.
But there are also games which fail to properly explain a mechanic or system which can result in you getting stuck and frustrated.
Or levels in games where everything looks exactly the same so you get lost easily and unsure where to go.
In those cases I would say it is bad design.
 
My guess is that it's mostly people who don't have a lot of free time for games who complain about this. I can understand that if you only have a handful of hours a week for your hobby you don't wanna spend them being lost.

Personally I rarely ever get into that situation to be honest. O.o Like 99% of games are straightforward enough for me to never have no idea what to do next. The closest I've come to that was with Dark Souls and then it didn't take long to remember a path I didn't take yet or something like that.
 
There's a big difference between having to improve at the game to advance (e.g. I was stuck on a boss in Devil May Cry 3 for a few hours, felt amazing when I improved and beat it) and having no idea what to do next because the game has given you no indication (common in older games, meant online guides became very popular for some games).

I would love to see more "AAA" games that are content to require the player to achieve some level of mastery to advance (doesn't need to be action-oriented like DMC, could be becoming more efficient in a strategy game or RPG).
 
Games that have no failure state, where you can't do wrong even trying, that don't let you the freedom screw things up, which aren't complex and non-linear enough to allow you to get lost... Those are the real failure in a lot of modern game design, as far as I'm concerned.
 
Depends if the reason you're stuck is trivial or if the game basically told you nothing and the next step to advance is unlogical (Simon quest for example).
 
Requiring the player to figure out the correct path forward is a perfectly valid obstacle in game design.

It's not an obstacle that necessarily belongs in every game, but to dingle it out as specifically bad is foolish.

There are plenty of examples of it being poorly implemented in games, but I can come up with plenty of examples of games with poorly implemented versions if [insert your favorite obstacle type] as well.
 
jackmurray said:
If you're lost in an area in a game, and the game is giving you zero indication of what to do, the game has fucked up.
Click to expand...
What if the game does give you an indication but you can't see it for some reason, making you think that the game doesn't give you an indication?
 
jackmurray said:
If you're lost in an area in a game, and the game is giving you zero indication of what to do, the game has fucked up.
Click to expand...

I seriously wonder how old you are. Because it seems you didnt growed up with games where such game design was more common. Or maybe you really always hated such game design.

I like games who make me explore. But at same time sometimes i like a game what pushes me along the story quickly without me having to think where to go next. Unfortuantly mostly these days the second option is only available.
 
Why do we always blame the game design, and not think about the abilities of the player? Are all games supposed to be able to be completed by everyone, regardless of skill, common sense, or otherwise?

Yes, some games have bad design, but sometimes the blame lies with the player.
 
By going mainstream gaming has attracted a lot of people who didn't like games for what they originally represented. Now sadly these people have to be catered for, turning a lot of games into inoffensive generic messes where challenge and having your intellect respected are now seen as bad design (by people who don't know what they're talking about).
 
Getting lost in an action game is lame and boring. You end up running through all the areas you've been before where nothing is happening until you eventually give up and look up a walk through. On the other hand, getting stuck in point and click adventure games is awesome. It is actually he whole point of the genre. You can then think of a solution logically(if logic applies) Or click everything with everything until it works in which case you get to see all the funny text the designers put in to ridicule your hopeless attempts at puzzle solving. Either way it's fun :D
 
Mihael Mello Keehl said:
If you're lost in an area in a game, and the player has zero indication of what to do, the player is fucking up.

Works both ways
Click to expand...

What?
What does this even mean?
How can the player have an indication when he is playing a game outside of that reality?

Anyway, the reasons why I get lost is usually due to horrible image quality, invisible walls, QTE, and jumping/falling mechanic.
Why create a gap that you sometime can jump over it, and sometime you can't?
Why create a ledge when you can sometime jump/grab on to it, or even fall off of it, and sometime you can't?
Why add bunch of crates to create height for gliding/jumping when it doesn't do crap anyway due to invisible ceiling?
Why do I have to find the right spot to trigger a scene so I can walk into this door?
Just so many inconsistency sometime with these games ie: DMC and Darksiders.
 
eXistor said:
All depends on the game, if you're truly lost and confused (Thief 2014's hub city for example) it's bad level design and it's nothing but frustrating. If you feel like you're on an adventure (Dragon's Dogma, Metroid) it's wonderful.
Click to expand...
How could anyone get stuck in Thief city hubs? You have a map and goal markets by default!

Anyone OP I think the shift is a reaction to a generation of gamers who have gotten used to being told where to go almost all the time coupled with the rise of almost pre-solved puzzles vs actual this might stump you for a while puzzles.

Couple that with lots of competitions media and fact average joe doesn't like being stuck / feeling they're failing and most games are afraid of that kind of challenge - outside of genuine puzzle based games.

It's a shame because if well designed I believe that kind of challenge is rewarding - detect subtle hints of ways to progress, piece together clues to solve a puzzle and progress - but it does seem out of favour in a climate where, taking games like Skyrim as an example, you get a mission to investigate a house for clues and the game first highlights the house then upon entry highlights exactly where to find the clues.

Of course the game let's you turn the markers off, but it's telling the default is to have them and it's rarely made clear you have the option to remove them without checking yourself under options.

In short it's a function of current game trends and do graphic market.
 
Shin Kojima said:
By going mainstream gaming has attracted a lot of people who didn't like games for what they originally represented. Now sadly these people have to be catered for, turning a lot of games into inoffensive generic messes where challenge and having your intellect respected are now seen as bad design (by people who don't know what they're talking about).
Click to expand...
I think that's the right answer.
 
nkarafo said:
I remember being stuck in the original Resident Evil for a couple of days. I was exploring the whole mansion again and again in order to find a clue. The opened areas became so familiar for me that, when i finally figure it out, just seeing new rooms was incredibly rewarding experience for me.
Click to expand...

This is probably unlikely but do you remember the exact part you were stuck on before figuring out what to do to advance?
 
Shin Kojima said:
By going mainstream gaming has attracted a lot of people who didn't like games for what they originally represented. Now sadly these people have to be catered for, turning a lot of games into inoffensive generic messes where challenge and having your intellect respected are now seen as bad design (by people who don't know what they're talking about).
Click to expand...

Proof for this is that an easy-ass game like Dark Souls is considered difficult by modern standards.
 
fedexpeon said:
What?
What does this even mean?
How can the player have an indication when he is playing a game outside of that reality?

Anyway, the reasons why I get lost is usually due to horrible image quality, invisible walls, QTE, and jumping/falling mechanic.
Why create a gap that you sometime can jump over it, and sometime you can't?
Why create a ledge when you can sometime jump/grab on to it, or even fall off of it, and sometime you can't?
Why add bunch of crates to create height for gliding/jumping when it doesn't do crap anyway due to invisible ceiling?
Why do I have to find the right spot to trigger a scene so I can walk into this door?
Just so many inconsistency sometime with these games ie: DMC and Darksiders.
Click to expand...
It means that the player could be pretty stupid if the game is giving clues yet they still dont know what the hell to do
 
It depends on the game. I love getting lost underground in Minecraft only to find my way to the surface by the skin of my teeth and loaded with loot. On the flip side, I HATE getting lost while dungeon crawling in Daggerfall.
 
Persona7 said:
This is probably unlikely but do you remember the exact part you were stuck on before figuring out what to do to advance?
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was the puzzle with the paintings. A perfectly logical and easy enough puzzle that, for some reason, i didn't figure out immediately. Yeah, i was dumb :P
 
Everyone is speaking in such vague terms that this thread is amounting to not much more than a "Yeah screw you casuals!" circle jerk.
 
It has never been fun if you had absolutely no Idea what to do next. Thats the reason I don't like some Metroids or Zeldas too much. At some point in the game, I simply cannot continue without consulting a guide.
 
nkarafo said:
I remember being stuck in the original Resident Evil for a couple of days. I was exploring the whole mansion again and again in order to find a clue. The opened areas became so familiar for me that, when i finally figure it out, just seeing new rooms was incredibly rewarding experience for me.
Click to expand...

This.

I remember being stuck on Monkey Island 2 for months. Then I found that laundry note behind Largo's door and it was one of the most exciting moments I'd ever had in a game.
 
I remember getting stuck for hours in final fantasy 4 because I don't know where to go next to continue the story. I believe there is no hint in the game that you need to
use the magma stone in a well in Agart.
I only found out by reading a guide online.
 
I played Secret of Mana when I was like 12. I'm Spanish and I didn't know a word of English at the time, and the game was not translated, so I basically played it blind. I got to the Empire, got lost for like two months and then lost interest (and some time later I lost the game itself).

I didn't complete the game until a decade later after my English improved considerably.
 
Corpekata said:
Everyone is speaking in such vague terms that this thread is amounting to not much more than a "Yeah screw you casuals!" circle jerk.
Click to expand...
Personally, i don't have a problem with casual games, i just choose to avoid them.

The problem is that, sometimes, game franchises that were once challenging, change their design to cater their needs. OtherM is the worst offender i can think of right now. Yes, that game made me say "screw you casuals, you have ruined video games for me" several times in my head, i admit.
 
Well that's modern AAA gaming for you (with very few exceptions besides Nintendo.) The people who enjoy these kind of games want to experience them more as movies than actual games and the developers are actually delivering exactly that.
 
I somehow feel that many people nowadays don't want to deal with stuff like this anymore. That's why there's so many intricate maps with waypoints out of the ass rather than letting players figure out things by themselves and explore. Especially RPGs and open-world games suffer from this. I find it a bit ironic how we've gone from low-fi sprites to intricate 3D world with all the bells and whistles but have taken a huge step when it comes to how we interact with these worlds.

One pet-peeve of mine is how little developers do with maps. I'd love for someone to give me a very limited map that I get to fill out by myself. Not necessarily as complex in Etrian Odyssey but at least let me figure out some locations by themselves. Nowadays everything is laid out in front of you and you have GPS right on your HUD, even in Skyrim. I guess people just don't enjoy using them that much.
 
nkarafo said:
I hear this so often lately. Seems that the moment someone is lost in a game, or stuck at a puzzle, he immediately thinks of it as something bad, like bad game design. Getting lost/stuck isn't fun right? But what is fun? Having your hand hold through the whole game until you see the ending sequence? What about challenge?

I mean, is the ending sequence the whole point of a game or the content of the game itself? All this time i thought that finding your way after being lost, or figuring out what to do after being stuck, was rewarding or something. Why is going from one cutscene to the next without some effort is fun for so many people?
Click to expand...

Yes I completely agree with the sentiment. I particularly don't understand people that get all discouraged when they start a game like Divinity: Original Sin, Super Metroid or Dark Souls and it doesn't immediately provide a quest marker or objective of what to do first. Why do you need the game to give you an 'objective'? Your objective is to explore everything and see everything. You try any one direction until you can get no further, then you try somewhere else. There, problem solved.
 
To me, there's two kinds of being stuck.

There's "you suck at the game, git gud" stuck

metal-gear-blladwolf-640_r640x400.jpg


and there's "what do I do? the game never told me" stuck.

tumblr_lntnq9JIKo1qdtw9eo1_500.jpg


There was a lot more of the latter in the past, and I'm glad that the internet and better game design in general have made developers cut down on it.
 
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