Ferguson: Police Officer Kills 18yo Michael Brown; Protests/Riots Continue

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I can see the NYC protest as occupied part 2 and not actually about Ferguson or Mike Brown.

Edit: Yeah just heard "Fuck capitalism".
 
Dead Man said:
Learn to read what is written instead of what you want to argue against. I never said it was impossible to either disarm or arrest a person with a knife.

Of course you can disarm them, it is just dangerous as fuck. And the de escalation techniques and response training are there so they can be arrested without resorting to force.

Seriously, how in the fuck do you think my post was saying you can't arrest people who are armed with a knife? Fucking hell.
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Dead Man said:
look, can we stop suggesting nonsense like disarming a knife wielder. It is rubbish, very fucking dangerous, and something to be avoided if possible.
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Just learned how to read again, and your post still reeks of defense in shooting a knife wielding man 10 times.
 
FkLA said:
So no VICE feed tonight? Tim Pool is apparently back in NYC
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I'd send him home too, he keeps losing everything!

Lime said:
Apparently you still haven't made yourself aware of the numerous cases of police officers in other countries who were able to take down an armed person without killing them.

Now read up on that before you make another ignorant, uninformed, and deplorable justification of police murder.
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We should dial this back a bit.
 
NervousXtian said:
No amount of training makes you not be human. Asking someone to risk being stabbed or killed to potentially arrest someone who is coming at them with a knife honestly is asking quite a bit. I think a taser would have been a good option, but it really happened very very quickly with how the guy kept moving around and then coming towards them.
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European police apparently feel quite fine being asked to respond to knife-wielders despite having no gun on their person. And there is a big difference between someone "coming at you with a knife" and someone who is clearly mentally ill slowly walking. He was not brandishing the knife, he made no sudden lunge or movements. The cops just suddenly shot him because they felt he was too close, which is not a justifiable reason to unleash deadly force. I saw no action or behavior prior to the officers shooting that indicated he was about to change his movement to attack. Had he lunged or said something like "time to die", it would be different.

I also agree however that people are going too far in the other direction and asking police to do crazy feats in terms of shooting. If the police are going to use deadly force, that's actually how it should be used (I am talking purely in terms of mechanics not policy). You should not shoot for the leg or the knife or rush them to use some kind of wrestling move. The point is that you try to keep the situation from reaching a juncture where deadly force becomes necessary.
 
I know that there is specific training for firearm armed law enforcement dealing with threats, but isn't knife crime prevalent in the UK and dealt with by their officers who aren't armed with guns? I don't think it's that ridiculous to suggest that you could stop a man with a knife by doing something other than shooting him, even if it puts the officers in way more danger.
 
Jaeger said:
Just learned how to read again, and your post still reeks of defense in shooting a knife wielding man 10 times.
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You are now either being obtuse or you actually are struggling. In some circumstances* it will be necessary to shoot a person wielding a knife. People should never try to physically disarm a person wielding a knife unless their life is in immediate danger and there is no exit from the threat.

This is why de escalation, negotiation, and mental health response training are so important. Those are how you avoid the disarming, not by shooting them. All the scary bold in the world won't make it say something I haven't.

*NOT THE ONE IN THE VIDEO

Added footnotes for those who need them.

Seriously, fuck off with this defending the cops narrative you have going here with my posts. It's pathetic and wrong. Go focus your anger at someone else.
 
The problem to me is they jumped out of the car and drew thier guns. To ask them to safely holster thier guns and switch to tasers when a guy is walking at them with a knife is kind of unreasonable.
 
That was a bright sky just now in the Ferguson stream. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for having a smaller group tonight is because of the weather.
 
Dead Man said:
You are now either being obtuse or you actually are struggling. In some circumstances* it will be necessary to shoot a person wielding a knife. People should never try to physically disarm a person wielding a knife unless their life is in immediate danger and there is no exit from the threat.

This is why de escalation, negotiation, and mental health response training are so important. Those are how you avoid the disarming, not by shooting them. All the scary bold in the world won't make it say something I haven't.

*NOT THE ONE IN THE VIDEO

Added footnotes for those who need them.

Seriously, fuck off with this defending the cops narrative you have going here with my posts. It's pathetic and wrong. Go focus your anger at someone else.
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I honestly don't know why this point is so hard to grasp unless people think deadly force is never justified and should never be used. We can agree with the mechanics of deadly force while still disagreeing with the way police often jump to it unnecessarily.
 
Brawndo Addict said:
European police apparently feel quite fine being asked to respond to knife-wielders despite having no gun on their person.
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It seems likely that most instances involving knives and police in the US also do not end in deaths. This comparison of Europeans do it right and Americans do it wrong ignores a lot of context.
 
Dead Man said:
You are now either being obtuse or you actually are struggling. In some circumstances* it will be necessary to shoot a person wielding a knife. People should never try to physically disarm a person wielding a knife unless their life is in immediate danger and there is no exit from the threat.

This is why de escalation, negotiation, and mental health response training are so important. Those are how you avoid the disarming, not by shooting them. All the scary bold in the world won't make it say something I haven't.

*NOT THE ONE IN THE VIDEO

Added footnotes for those who need them.

Seriously, fuck off with this defending the cops narrative you have going here with my posts. It's pathetic and wrong. Go focus your anger at someone else.
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Woah there, you need to chill out, buddy.
 
NervousXtian said:
That was a clear case of Suicide by Police. Sad to watch still, as the guy was obviously mentally ill, but it's pretty clear the guy was potentially very dangerous.
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Or someone who was mentally ill and really wound up about what's been going on in Ferguson who thought it a good idea to try and make a statement that ended up costing him his life.

Lime said:
Or, i dont know, a warning shot? Or a shot to the leg. Or just one bullet mid-center? But no, this is 7 bullets followed by 2 more. This is way too over-excessive and borders on pathologic behavior.
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No warning shots, those are dangerous, cops are trained to aim for center mass and double tap or at least they use to be, not sure if it's still a thing. Now if only so many cops weren't such horrible shots.
 
Jaeger said:
Just learned how to read again, and your post still reeks of defense in shooting a knife wielding man 10 times.
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Are you suggesting somehow an officer can simply stop shooting after a couple of shots? If a suspect poses a physical threat, they're probably going to tell the suspect to drop the knife, if the suspect fails to comply he'll probably be dropped, the officer will likely stop firing after the clip is emptied or the threat is neutralized, until the knife is dropped, it's likely that the suspect won't be subdued. You can't expect law enforcement officers to put themselves at more risk when they're already presented with a threat, when police officers draw their guns, they shoot to kill, pure and simple.
 
ProfessorMoran said:
Are you suggesting somehow an officer can simply stop shooting after a couple of shots? If a suspect poses a physical threat, they're probably going to tell the suspect to drop the knife, if the suspect fails to comply he'll probably be dropped, the officer will likely stop firing after the clip is emptied or the threat is neutralized, until the knife is dropped, it's likely that the suspect won't be subdued. You can't expect law enforcement officers to put themselves at more risk when they're already presented with a threat.
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After a couple shots there was little to no risk for the officers. This isn't a Jason movie.
 
RE: the shooting of the guy with the knife

I'm kind of amazed that in such a case both cops shoot bullets, instead of one deploying a tazer and the other on standby with to use deadly force with real gun if that fails. You'd think this sort of layered approach would be standard training.
 
Why would you go on Hannity if you know he's not going to let you talk?

I hate you guys for making me watch 24/7 news channels again when I swore it off 4 years ago.
 
KHarvey16 said:
It seems likely that most instances involving knives and police in the US also do not end in deaths. This comparison of Europeans do it right and Americans do it wrong ignores a lot of context.
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Not if the context of the comparison is about the situations where it does result in death and whether that death could have been prevented. Most police encounters end without incident, the fact that violent encounters are a smaller percentage of a much larger number doesn't make that number meaningless. If we're exploring the subset of incidents where death results, we're not particularly interested in the inverse unless we're curious about incident rates (which I would agree is relevant but likely unknown, and Europe would come up on top in any event).

The comparisons to European police comes because many posters seem to suggest that the very notion of resolving a situation involving a knife peacefully is too much to ask of police. In which case, both the comparison abroad and your point show very clearly that it is not. Which leads back into the discussion about this being a preventable death.
 
ProfessorMoran said:
Are you suggesting somehow an officer can simply stop shooting after a couple of shots? If a suspect poses a physical threat, they're probably going to tell the suspect to drop the knife, if the suspect fails to comply he'll probably be dropped, the officer will likely stop firing after the clip is emptied or the threat is neutralized, until the knife is dropped, it's likely that the suspect won't be subdued. You can't expect law enforcement officers to put themselves at more risk when they're already presented with a threat.
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How many shots are needed to neutralize a target, not wearing any kind of vest or other form of protection?

He was shot at least 4 times on the ground.
 
ProfessorMoran said:
Are you suggesting somehow an officer can simply stop shooting after a couple of shots? If a suspect poses a physical threat, they're probably going to tell the suspect to drop the knife, if the suspect fails to comply he'll probably be dropped, the officer will likely stop firing after the clip is emptied or the threat is neutralized, until the knife is dropped, it's likely that the suspect won't be subdued. You can't expect law enforcement officers to put themselves at more risk when they're already presented with a threat.
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Apparently we're suppose to get shot or stabbed before using force. I never ever ever EVER want to use my gun or injure someone...however treating real life like a movie or videogame with the theories in this thread is crazy. I wish most people could shoot a knife from someone's hand
 
From ABC:

"The Ferguson police officer who shot and killed an unarmed teenager suffered 'a serious facial injury' in the altercation before firing the fatal shots, according to a source close to the officer who spoke to ABC News today....The hospital photo of the office's [sic] facial injury is expected to be shown to the grand jury, the source said."

It will be interesting to find out who this "source" is as well as if there is any credibility to this claim. If what is being reported is true, this bit of evidence could be the determining factor on whether the grand jury goes forward with the indictment.
 
Gonzalez said:
Why would you go on Hannity if you know he's not going to let you talk?

I hate you guys for making me watch 24/7 news channels again when I swore it off 4 years ago.
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I turned on CNN a couple days ago while I was browsing GAF. Like 5 minutes later when I actually heard what they were saying I had to turn it off immediately. CNN and Fox News are horrible.
 
Christopher said:
Apparently we're suppose to get shot or stabbed before using force. I never ever ever EVER want to use my gun or injure someone...however treating real life like a movie or videogame with the theories in this thread is crazy. I wish most people could shoot a knife from someone's hand
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I hope you recognize the stark difference between shooting a knife out of someone's hand, and emptying your clip into them including multiple shots while they're laying on the ground.
 
Jaeger said:
How many shots are needed to neutralize a target, not wearing any kind of vest or other form of protection?

He was shot at least 4 times on the ground.
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As many as it takes. You have to remember that this type of thing happens in a split second, it doesn't take very long to empty your clip, you're trying to neutralize a threat, the well-being of your target is never your priority, your own safety is.
 
Trouble said:
Once again, no they aren't. This misconception seems to pop up every few pages. They are trained to keep firing until the threat is neutralized.
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I see, my bad. What does neutralized mean though? If theres a danger they might get up again can you keep shooting them? Do cops ever get punished for firing too many shots?
 
minx88 said:
Explain to me how two officers could safely take down a crazed guy with a knife.
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minx88 said:
You have no Fucking clue what you are talking about. Call backup? What does that do? He was already closing his distance on the officers. Backup would mean more officers pointing guns.

You don't tase someone with a knife. This was already explained. You don't let a person with a knife get close to you, period.

What self defense training safely protects you from a knife? Police officers are not Judo warriors, this isn't the movies here. I don't quite think people realize how fast you can kill someone with a knife.
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We had this conversation. And you are wrong. Meaning youre the one without a clue.

2-foot machete. Drunk. Threatening. A sword in his other hand.

K6lfP1o.jpg


The video shows a pot-bellied man in a floral shirt violently swinging the two-foot blade in the air and screaming at armed officers in Brockley, south London.

As he lunges forward towards the police, one officer uses the wheelie bin as a makeshift shield, protecting himself from the knife.

A colleague of the officer instantly rushes to his rescue by hitting the man on the back with a baton, but is forced to retreat as he lashes out with the blade.

The stand-off eventually ends when more than 30 officers with riot shields overwhelmed and arrested him.

A Metropolitan police spokesman said: "The man was detained under the Mental Health Act and taken to a secure medical facility where he remains."
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...le-machete-wielding-man-with-wheelie-bin.html

WATCH THE VIDEO

They took him down with their batons and a trash can.



bu bu bu Europe. Europe is special. Theres no crime in Europe.

Try this on for size

Police spotted Jose Ortiz Jr., 18, running down East 21st Street near Prospect Avenue brandishing a machete in each hand shortly after midnight on Sunday, police said.

The police officer, who was in an unmarked car at the time, left his cruiser and sprinted after Ortiz, authorities said.

But Ortiz did not immediately drop the enormous heavy-bladed knives. The officer demanded several times that Ortiz drop the machetes before he eventually dropped them to the ground, police said.

Ortiz put his hand into his pocket and began walking toward the officer, before he was ordered to take his hands out of his pockets, all while the officer still had his gun pointed at him, police said.

Police handcuffed and arrested Ortiz, who was taken to headquarters, processed, police said.
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I have a feeling St Louis police would have shot him 22 times earlier

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/...iz_jr_police_crime_arrest_august_20_2014.html
 
Should have at least tried a taser before killing him. Or just stay out of his way until more officers arrive. You don't have to kill him if he is walking towards you. Try talking to him? Killing him should be a last resort.
 
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