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[Squalor]

Those men are however not sexualised though.

I never said they were. However, they absolutely are. It's not in the same way as female characters, but look at all the main characters in video games and movies. They're all picture-perfect men. Nathan Drake is a stud. Snakes are studs. Kratos is a stud. Captain Shepard is a stud. Et cetera, et cetera. Very rarely does a game star an "everyman." That's definitely sexualizing them, just not as excessively as the female characters.

The person I started this conversation with mentioned two adjectives, "sexualized" and "hopeless," and I responded talking about hopeless.

Of course women are more sexualized in a medium where the creators are mostly men and so too are the consumers. At times it's way overdone, like that Far Cry 3 scene or any of the fan-service non-sense that populates Japanese media.

I'm not saying that it's right. However, I did mention the time period as an important aspect to consider when discussing certain media, which is something the creator chose to ignore.

 

[pants]

want to know what happened to that franchise...?

I have no idea.

Oh wow, she talks about Kane & Lynch at about 21 mins

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

want to know what happened to that franchise...?

Kane and Lynch got a plane

 

[TheStruggler]

I have no idea.

Oh wow, she talks about Kane & Lynch at about 21 mins

canned to focus on hitman lol

 

[notworksafe]

want to know what happened to that franchise...?

They made two mediocre games and then stopped?

 

[MrChocolate]

So?

The discussion over the hogtie mechanic was discussed on the past video, and it actually focused on how you are given an achievement for hogtying a woman and placing her in train tracks.

It gives you an achievment because of the context as in reference to old western movies, not because "we are killing a wimen".

 

[llamarawk]

People bring up tropes vs men exist or that some of these tropes are depicted by male characters too as if it invalidates the trope as "used on men too." Really doesnt make the trope any less lazy and the sexualization of different gender NPCs is certainly a double standard.

 

[TheHall]

I really liked her point on Watchdogs, that the only action the player can take is to kill the bad guy.

 

[Nairume]

Also, regarding the historical stuff, I think she could have gone even further than just saying that patriarchy is the standard and even go into how there are examples of historical cultures where it was entrenched still made an effort to curtail sexual violence.

Like, Norse culture actually had progressive laws against sexual violence.

If fucking Viking culture could get to that point of trying to stamp out sexual violence, your generic northeastern European fantasy setting can do the same....EA

 

[TheStruggler]

They made two mediocre games and then stopped?

but im tired of tropes vs men they kinda came close however they were to macho, need to be toned down way more

 

[misho8723]

OK, we all know that Witcher 1 has problems when it comes to women - sex cards - but even that game has some really strong women characters and Witcher 2 is one of the best examples when it comes to show great female characters in videogames.. and in this video she uses some strange things to prove her point - like when you can (must) help some women, which need help - ehmm, like you don't need many times to help helpless men..

And in many of those scenes she uses from games i only feel sad about those women - is that a bad thing? Like the scenes from Dishonored, those are really sad scenes about those girls.. some scenes are to much even for me - like that missions from GTA IV where you need to capture that woman, the scene from Kane & Lynch or God of War III.. but yes, the video-game industry has a problem with the depiction of women.. but please be objective when you're trying to prove your point (view).. i would love to see a video where she talks about games (or scenes from games) which show women the way she likes and want more of that in the industry

 

[aeolist]

It gives you an achievment because of the context as in reference to old western movies, not because "we are killing a wimen".

that doesn't make it not sexist

 

[Enco]

What's the solution?

Get rid of prostitutes in games like RDR and GTA?

Serious question. Not being sarcastic.

 

[hawk2025]

It gives you an achievment because of the context as in reference to old western movies, not because "we are killing a wimen".

Yes, and?

The poster I replied to mentioned the hogtying mechanic as a symmetric affair between genders, and I pointed out that it's not.

I really liked her point on Watchdogs, that the only action the player can take is to kill the bad guy.

You can actually just beat him up and not kill him -- but it's true that you are not supposed to engage on the event until the abuse starts.

 

[Brakke]

It gives you an achievment because of the context as in reference to old western movies, not because "we are killing a wimen".

Damsels usually survived those Snidely Whiplash things.

"It's just a reference to a bad thing it isn't a bad thing itself" is a dog that won't hunt.

 

[Zaku]

What's the solution?

Get rid of prostitutes in games like RDR and GTA?

Serious question. Not being sarcastic.

Better writing, basically. Tropes aren't bad, but when you're using them just to put a woman in a slinky outfit in the game for market appeal, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Nairume]

OK, we all know that Witcher 1 has problems when it comes to women - sex cards - but even that game has some really strong women characters and Witcher 2 is one of the best examples when it comes to show great female characters in videogames.. and in this video she uses some strange things to prove her point - like when you can (must) help some women, which need help - ehmm, like you don't need many times to help helpless men..

In fairness, that's really only elevating it to the level of James Bond in as far as its treatment of women goes.

Of course, that's what the Witcher always has been: Fantasy James Bond murdering and boning his way across Disney canon.

 

[notworksafe]

but im tired of tropes vs men they kinda came close however they were to macho, need to be toned down way more

maybe you should go play lester the unlikely. might be up your alley.

 

[Lime]

I respect that she uses Papo Y Yo as a positive depiction of victimhood through its empowerment and agency.

 

[Kinyou]

I really liked her point on Watchdogs, that the only action the player can take is to kill the bad guy.

Yeah, but I think that's more of a general problem with the game. You can't call an ambulance for the male victims either. Ubisoft thinks every problem is solved by putting a bullet into someones head.

 

[Nairume]

What's the solution?

Get rid of prostitutes in games like RDR and GTA?

Serious question. Not being sarcastic.

Just sticking with RDR, what would you really lose by not having it? Of the greatest western films out there, only a few (Once Upon a Time in the Old West and Stagecoach come to mind) fell back on prostitutes as major, minor, or background characters. And even those movies managed to handle it more gracefully than Rockstar.

You can absolutely do RDR without them, or at least without getting gross in its portrayal of them.

 

[Squalor]

that doesn't make it not sexist

That's a specious reply.

 

[Garjon]

I'm glad that she touches on these issues, I really am. And this is definitely a problem with certain publishers (Ubisoft especially) who force these sorts of sequences into every game they make. What makes it worse is that the game doesn't actually say anything about prostitution and sexual violence - it just happens. There is never any quest for the player to get to the root of the problem, only to meet out 'justice' when it happens. There is no condemnation or discussion of it within the game. It is simply there, as Anita says, to give the player something to do. And besides, would anyone seriously find themselves less immersed in a game if prostitution and 'realistic' sexual violence were taken out of a game like The Witcher or GTA? Would it really make the game less appealing to play?

Another thing to note that the sexual violence against prostitutes is demeaning to men as well, as if the only reaction a man can do when a prostitute laughs at him or whatever is to brutally kill her.

 

[aeolist]

That's a specious reply.

o the irony

 

[Oersted]

Of course women are more sexualized in a medium where the creators are mostly men and so too are the consumers. At times it's way overdone, like that Far Cry 3 scene or any of the fan-service non-sense that populates Japanese media.

Yes, she is critizing the sexism. What is your point, exactly?

 

[Conan-san]

And look who the cat dragged in...

And of course half of these are moments the player is supposed to go "...the fuck?" and if anyone got a boner out of it they'd be very, very weird.

 

[RpgN]

Part 2 is much better than part 1. She brought her points across and it didn't feel forced at any point during this video. Although I never played most of these games myself, so I'm not sure if she's mispresenting an example or deliberately only showing one side. Also another point to her for bringing Papo & Yo as a positive example, as I was seriously impressed with how that game handled its subject when I played it.

This might be my favourite video of her about video games. She seems to explain herself more while offering examples. In the first few videos there were mostly examples. It's nice to see her improving and getting better.

 

[Enco]

Better writing, basically. Tropes aren't bad, but when you're using them just to put a woman in a slinky outfit in the game for market appeal, you're doing it wrong.

Just sticking with RDR, what would you really lose by not having it? Of the greatest western films out there, only a few (Once Upon a Time in the Old West and Stagecoach come to mind) fell back on prostitutes as major, minor, or background characters. And even those movies managed to handle it more gracefully than Rockstar.

You can absolutely do RDR without them, or at least without getting gross in its portrayal of them.

To be honest I agree in that they are unnecessary. They never add anything to the game.

 

[securitypigeon]

Just watched the whole vid.

Yes, poor treatment against women is clearly used to convey the negative statuses of bad guys, but I take severe issue with her core argument.

Ultimately, her feminist ideologies muddy her understanding of narrative and artist intent. She may not like that the examples she pointed to exist, but I don't think it's unreasonable to see why. Whether it's been via religion, cultural values or sheer physical force in everyday life, male dominion over women in sex trades (to single one example) is a real thing, and it's a tangible historical accuracy represented in some of the games mentioned.

RDR, for instance..it's a game set in latter days of the Old West, a social era where women were indeed largely valued as secondary to a man. So, what - the game should never depict this because it's foul? The example shown from RDR seems one of the most mature examples there are in games, not in the least because of Marston's dismissal of the pimp's practices..which by the way, results in his death at the player's hands for the very values espoused by Marston.

Let's also not forget what they're not showing about this game - Bonnie and Marston's wife, who are some of the most strong female characters to exist in an adult-themed game in a long time. But that doesn't get mentioned; instead we see a small vignette that could be easily missed by any player.

The same is true with the Watchdogs example. Sex trafficking exists - it's awful and should be condemned. Do developers have to therefore pretend it doesn't exist, despite their artistic ambitions, purely to appease the more fragile sensibilities of those who would rather wipe this representation off the face of all media? That's hardly pragmatic; just because it's more grand than a domestic abuse case happening in a normal home doesn't make it any less 'real' in the purview of horrific criminal behaviour.

Plus, Anita needs to be honest: a male-on-male encounter (as represented in Watchdogs) is far more likely to play out in an aggressive manner between two equal combatants than a man-on-woman scenario. Men are stronger and wield greater power in these situations, and we all know this is true by virtue of the rape and abuse statistics so readily put forward at the end.

Admittedly, the one scene which threw me off was the God of War one. That did seem gratuitous, although given the time period/mythology that series invokes, it doesn't strike me as being totally out of character either. Granted, you could argue that's ultimately not a good thing, and I would be more sympathetic to that particular argument than the ones I've already mentioned.

But most of all...I cringe every time 'patriarchy' is brought into the discussion. These scenes, as crude or as base as they appear, don't exist to perpetuate a harsh view of women for the sole purpose of imbibing male players/viewers with a dim view of the female gender. They can certainly be ham-fisted and crass, but there's no connection in that argument beyond mere interpretation..and it's one I don't find particularly convincing.

 

[Kinyou]

Just sticking with RDR, what would you really lose by not having it? Of the greatest western films out there, only a few (Once Upon a Time in the Old West and Stagecoach come to mind) fell back on prostitutes as major, minor, or background characters. And even those movies managed to handle it more gracefully than Rockstar.

You can absolutely do RDR without them, or at least without getting gross in its portrayal of them.

Pretty sure the scene where the prostitute gets cut up is homage to Unforgiven. But nothing would be really lost if you get rid of that.

However did I feel like that the scene in Mexico goes with the tone of the game and how almost every side character meets a tragic end.

 

[TheHall]

Yeah, but I think that's more of a general problem with the game. You can't call an ambulance for the male victims either. Ubisoft thinks every problem is solved by putting a bullet into someones head.

It's probably a problem across many games actually.

 

[hawk2025]

Part 2 is much better than part 1. She brought her points across and it didn't feel forced at any point during this video. Although I never played most of these games myself, so I'm not sure if she's mispresenting an example or deliberately only showing one side. Also another point to her for bringing Papo & Yo as a positive example, as I was seriously impressed with how that game handled its subject when I played it.

This might be my favourite video of her about video games. She seems to explain herself more while offering examples. In the first few videos there were mostly examples. It's nice to see her improving and getting better.

Same.

It's been a constant improvement, from what I'm seeing. It would be kind of funny to see my replies to the very first video. I remember thinking it was fairly weak back then.

 

[Trey]

im tired of the tropes vs men come on all extremely good looking, have the life anyone would want, have a body that would even make stallone turn an say "ooooo thatz prety gewd". Give me reality, give me a man slightly over weight who doesnt care about his hygiene and never gets the girl because nice guys finish last. Im tired of these stereo types and these must change in gaming!!!!!!

What man doesn't care about his hygiene?

 

[edungeon]

This was a really good episode. I think she got her bases covered and showed how these depictions are harmful to society. And to change this situation is like something before me said, better writing. Make your characters more human, more complex, more fallible, etc. The good thing is that what I want to play, anyway, so I support Anita videos =]

 

[dark10x]

I feel the same about this as last time; she has some good points and some of those examples are solid, but I still feel that this kind of stuff CAN have its place in some pieces of entertainment. Something design to shock and illicit certain ill feelings in the player shouldn't shy away from potentially offensive material (and that goes well beyond this particular topic).

I'm glad that Papo & Yo is being used as a positive example here on how to handle dark themes. It was a very unique experience indeed.

 

[pants]

canned to focus on hitman lol

"Let's reinvest and get more of that murder dollar, this fat criminal dollar just isnt working for us"

Okay, so I finished. This is the first video I have watched to completion and I'm not sure what to say. As someone who plays and reads about games a lot, I've been aware of Anita Sarkeesian for some time but never sat down and finished one of these. I guess this issue just isnt high on my priority list? (In the context of gaming) (I dont feel this makes me a bad person either) I largely agree with what she has to say in general terms but lack the motivation/drive/time to do anything about it (and what can I do anyway?) What are we supposed to do here, just be aware of the issues (i'm sure most of us are) or is there some end goal in mind here? What practical actions can be taken here, or is the purpose of these videos first and foremost of an informative nature?

I guess I'm left with the feeling of 'yeah i agree!' then nothing but ether following afterwards. It's not immediately apparent what one should do post acceptance and agreement.

 

[Squalor]

Just sticking with RDR, what would you really lose by not having it? Of the greatest western films out there, only a few (Once Upon a Time in the Old West and Stagecoach come to mind) fell back on prostitutes as major, minor, or background characters. And even those movies managed to handle it more gracefully than Rockstar.

You can absolutely do RDR without them, or at least without getting gross in its portrayal of them.

So you just ignore history?

And your mind is certainly failing you if you think "only a few" used them. Deadwood, High Noon, Lonesome Dove, The Magnificent Seven, True Grit, The Searchers, Unforgiven all had prostitutes as major or minor characters.

I'm not saying "two wrongs make a right," but it's just completely fallacious to claim "only a few" Westerns feature them.

 

[Oidisco]

"Let's reinvest and get more of that murder dollar, this fat criminal dollar just isnt working for us"

Okay, so I finished. This is the first video I have watched to completion and I'm not sure what to say. As someone who plays and reads about games a lot, I've been aware of Anita Sarkeesian for some time but never sat down and finished one of these. I guess this issue just isnt high on my priority list? (In the context of gaming) (I dont feel this makes me a bad person either) I largely agree with what she has to say in general terms but lack the motivation/drive/time to do anything about it (and what can I do anyway?) What are we supposed to do here, just be aware of the issues (i'm sure most of us are) or is there some end goal in mind here? What practical actions can be taken here, or is the purpose of these videos first and foremost of an informative nature?

I guess I'm left with the feeling of 'yeah i agree!' then nothing but ether following afterwards. It's not immediately apparent what one should do post acceptance and agreement.

I believe the main goal of the series is to make more people aware of the issue, and give the information/language necessary to further explore and discuss the issue if a person desires.

 

[Lime]

I feel the same about this as last time; she has some good points and some of those examples are solid, but I still feel that this kind of stuff CAN have its place in some pieces of entertainment. Something design to shock and illicit certain ill feelings in the player shouldn't shy away from potentially offensive material (and that goes well beyond this particular topic).

I'm glad that Papo & Yo is being used as a positive example here on how to handle dark themes. It was a very unique experience indeed.

I think you missed one of the points Sarkeesian is making. She isn't saying that "this kind of stuff" cannot have a place in some pieces of entertainment. She is saying that if you are going to use problematic imagery and interactivity with a simulation of characters, then at least try to present it in a justifiable and sober manner. Treat violence against and victimization of women in video games with the weight that such problematic topics demand - don't just throw it in there without any thought or reflection. Which is why she used Papo Y Yo as an example of how to do it somewhat properly.

 

[Nairume]

Pretty sure the scene where the prostitute gets cut up is homage to Unforgiven. But nothing would be really lost if you get rid of that.

Also, though it may be a reference to Unforgiven, even that seems to have done a better job justifying it through the film's ending in a way that you really don't see in these kind of open world games.

Of course, I've only just recently bought RDR and haven't actually started playing it yet, so I supposed it could very well do that (though I doubt it for obvious reasons).

 

[MrChocolate]

that doesn't make it not sexist

But historically accurate.
What's next? Hitler actually being a good guy?

Yes, and?

The poster I replied to mentioned the hogtying mechanic as a symmetric affair between genders, and I pointed out that it's not.

It is. It would be sexist if you could ONLY hogtie females. Which is not the case. But thanks for trying.

 

[Foggy]

I guess the same issues with her videos are gonna keep popping up. She has a wealth of examples and genuine issues with games, but propping up the exploitation of mission logic(Ass. Creed 2 example) as an example just feels wrong-headed or an effort to pad the argument. The crux of the video also feels off, because honestly, the same issues or the introduction of new issues would be there if these background decorations had actual meaningful characterization. Does it really matter that these characters in the game are background decoration as opposed to full-fledged characters? Not really, all it does is provide another platform to argue from. I guess my beef is that the argument is sound, but when you throw out silly supporting arguments then it just dilutes the message and it turns into people arguing over the little shit and trying to extrapolate that into some indictment of the major point she's trying to make.

 

[Lime]

But historically accurate.
What's next? Hitler actually being a good guy?

Try to watch the actual video. She addresses your "historical accuracy" argument towards the end. Here's the quote:

What does it say about our culture when games routinely bend or break the laws of physics and no one bats an eye, when dragons, ogres, and magic are inserted into historically influenced settings without objection? We’re perfectly willing to suspend our disbelief when it comes to multiple lives, superpowers, health regeneration, and the ability to carry dozens of weapons in a massive invisible backpack. But somehow, the idea of a world without sexual violence and exploitation is deemed too strange and too bizarre to be believable.

The truth is that objectification and sexual violence are neither normal nor inevitable. We do not have to accept them as some kind of necessary cultural backdrop in our media stories…When we see fictional universes challenging or even transcending systemic gender oppression, it subverts the dominant paradigm within our collective consciousness, and helps make a more just society feel possible, tangible, and within reach.”

 

[Squalor]

o the irony

I take that reply as proof you don't know what "irony" or "specious" is, then.

 

[Neidii]

She makes some good points, and while I might not agree with everything I think it's really sad that she gets so much hate from people for doing these videos. I think it's a pretty important issue to talk about, and she did it well. Some thing I hadn't even thought much about until she brought it up.

 

[Nairume]

So you just ignore history?

I made a point up above about history.

She's absolutely right in that the claim of "historical accuracy" falls flat when there are examples of that not being the case with every historical culture.

I then backed that up by pointing out an example of a specific case of a prominent historical culture (specifically one that is known for violence!) making a point to address sexual violence.

And your mind is certainly failing you if you think "only a few" used them. Deadwood, High Noon, Lonesome Dove, The Magnificent Seven, True Grit, The Searchers, Unforgiven all had prostitutes as major or minor characters.

I'm not saying "two wrongs make a right," but it's just completely fallacious to claim "only a few" Westerns feature them.

There's a lot of great westerns. Ones that play up prostitutes are still relatively few.

RDR could have done without that content and it still would have been fine at playing into western nostalgia.

 

[misho8723]

In fairness, that's really only elevating it to the level of James Bond in as far as its treatment of women goes.

Of course, that's what the Witcher always has been: Fantasy James Bond murdering and boning his way across Disney canon.

Oh yeah? Well it only comes to W1 where he can be "James Bond", and even there only if you like.. and in W2, i had sex only with Triss, which is in my playthrough the one and only love, and than you have another awesome female characters like : Sheala de Tancarville, Philippa Eilhart (overall all women from The Lodge of Sorceresses), Saskia, Brigida Papebrock, Cynthia, Ves, etc..

 

[Conan-san]

I guess the same issues with her videos are gonna keep popping up. She has a wealth of examples and genuine issues with games, but propping up the exploitation of mission logic(Ass. Creed 2 example) as an example just feels wrong-headed or an effort to pad the argument. The crux of the video also feels off, because honestly, the same issues or the introduction of new issues would be there if these background decorations had actual meaningful characterization. Does it really matter that these characters in the game are background decoration as opposed to full-fledged characters? Not really, all it does is provide another platform to argue from. I guess my beef is that the argument is sound, but when you throw out silly supporting arguments then it just dilutes the message and it turns into people arguing over the little shit and trying to extrapolate that into some indictment of the major point she's trying to make.

This is pretty much the crux of the matter.

Try to watch the actual video. She addresses your "historical accuracy" argument towards the end. Here's the quote:

[waffle]

So basically she's asking for the historical equivalent of "Take that, Mr. Policeman!"

Though I wonder if WHAT?! THE POSTMAN'S WIFE IS DEAD?! would tick her off more.

 

[Phades]

There is never any quest for the player to get to the root of the problem, only to meet out 'justice' when it happens.

You could say this about virtually any game and title in existance that has any sort of violence in it. It, of course, would make you fall into the jaded catagory, but it wouldn't be inaccurate since all games which employ simplistic means at the core to move the player to the end as a measure to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

 

[nsignific]

Yes, and?

The poster I replied to mentioned the hogtying mechanic as a symmetric affair between genders, and I pointed out that it's not.

But that's WHY there's no symmetry there, and it's a good reason, too. The point stands.