Askherserenity
Member
Never seen any of her videos. Is she just showing stuff that she thinks is demeaning to women and that's it? Or actually explaining how they could have done to better portray woman in said game?
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
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Imru al-Qays;127021079 said:
I'm not saying that the two are mutually exclusive, since I'm more than aware that the two overlap considerably.
Just providing an answer to the question of how one could do the City Elf origin without sexual violence, and I say that you could just double down on the racial angle and it would perhaps be even stronger for it.
So what they did in Watch Dogs, which she criticized in her previous video?
Imru al-Qays
Banned
But why would you need to? Is doubling down on the racism angle any less exploitative or objectionable? Is there something inherently wrong with making a good faith effort to approach sexual violence in a mature, responsible manner? Bioware did a pretty good job with the city elf origin, all things considered. It certainly doesn't belong in the same discussion as the God of War example.
Imru al-Qays;127022072 said:
So tired. "Just because a game may include a positive female character it doesnt mean other sexist representations in that game are then magically ok."
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/502234047209545729
Imru al-Qays
Banned
So you think her use of the Dragon Age city elf origin isn't in any way misleading?
ForsakenLotus
Member
Usually she will make a statement such as, "Women are often used as a sexy backdrop that add nothing to the story." And then give examples.
The problem I have, and many I'd wager, is that she cherry picks many examples and often doesn't understand or doesn't care about the context. It's like saying every attractive female not dressing modestly is being used purely to get the boys salivating. It's just intellectually dishonest, and undermines the examples she gives that are absolutely correct.
Only because they break out and kill the guards before it happens. The threat is there. And not before one elf woman is murdered for resisting, and not before the character's cousin is raped.
It's not in the plot to do anything but show you the power imbalance and make you hate the arl's son, who you can then either kill or accept a bribe from, before you're whisked off to Ostagar and the rest of the game.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
But that's the exact case in WD but she didn't like that they did that.
Why not? There's a spectrum of characters some "positive" some "negative", surely that's a good thing?
Mowki Kowski
Member
She's not a games writer. It's not really her job to tell people "no, THIS is how you're supposed to write." On the other side of the coin, she's not just providing examples of sexism, she's also explaining why they're problematic.
They should've used that boat Captain that Kratos let fall down the Hydra's throat in 1 and killed again when he was summoned by the barbarian in 2, it would've been hilarious to use him as the means to jam the mechanism.
dead souls
Member
Agreed. Seeing it all back to back like that is nauseating. This industry has some real problems.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
It's in the plot to show you that elves in Ferelden are an oppressed minority who live in constant terror and vulnerability. It's not really about the arl's son at all, it's about getting you to think about the position of this ethnic group in this society. Like the mage origin is about getting you to think about the situation of the mages.
So who gets to decide what is a sexist representation and what isn't? There's numerous examples in this thread where people are disagreeing on the matter.
She's exploring the way certain tropes and cliches are used in video games, why those tropes have sexist implications behind them, and usually offers at least some thoughts on how the negative aspects could be avoided.
they've already come to their own conclusion and it lacks both actually watching the full video and/or reading comprehension
The Red Dead Redemption example was terrible.
It is NOT excessive sexualization. It is what happened. It is history, and YES (countering her counter-argument) the player has to 'fight' it. But in the end it failed. I thought it was a very strong moment in the game.
She's clearly not a historian, acting like it is special that women are beaten up. It is terrible, but if you want to clearly depict a medieval/dystopian/wild west setting, abuse to women is part and parcel of it. And the abuse of women is always depicted as a 'bad' thing.
It is NOT excessive sexualization. It is what happened. It is history, and YES (countering her counter-argument) the player has to 'fight' it. But in the end it failed. I thought it was a very strong moment in the game.
She's clearly not a historian, acting like it is special that women are beaten up. It is terrible, but if you want to clearly depict a medieval/dystopian/wild west setting, abuse to women is part and parcel of it. And the abuse of women is always depicted as a 'bad' thing.
Askherserenity
Member
Hmm...Don't think you have to be a "games writer" to suggest ways in which she thinks they could have done better. Because then, isn't she just coming off as someone just recording herself being angry at something?
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Explain to me why you think I'm wrong, don't just driveby shitpost.
Personally, I don't think think it was very mature at all with how cartoonish the game got with Vaughan's antics. I don't seem to be alone on this, either.Imru al-Qays;127023254 said:
I don't think doubling down on it would be all that exploitative, given it would mean that they'd have more of an opportunity to explore all the implications of the setting's inherent racism instead of having to split time between both and not doing either particularly well.
That said, despite my thinking that DA:O definitely has shortcomings in dealing with the subject of racism, it is a step above much of the rest of the genre/industry in addressing that subject.
That seems like an odd response unless you agree that DAO was a misleading example to use.
her point was that it's handled with absolutely zero nuance, subtlety or consideration for these women as actual characters/people. they're just there to illustrate the horrible world conditions but without any sort of agency or characterization therefore remaining decorations of abuse.
Her premise is to illustrate (and substantiate) that there's a problem with the culture of how women are presented and utilized in videogames. I guess you'd file it under "identifying the problem" more that claiming to solve it. With a broad issue like this, you can't exactly propose solutions in the same way you would with something like engineering: you're addressing a wide range of creators, who have their own intentions for including what they have in the game settings. The idea being that making audiences more aware of the patterns in the media they consume is generally a good thing.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
And our point is that the very same lack of nuance is given to the men, just shoot them and move on.
It drives me nuts when she captures video of players doing exactly what they aren't supposed to do, failing certain objectives or miniature scenarios, watching things play out when the player is intended to want to stop the assault in question. The developers often serve up these scenarios to give you the opportunity to either make you feel like a hero or to give you a satisfying sense of revenge, not to satisfy your inner serial rapist.
And?
My point was not just that it's certainly a thing that happens, but that the way Dragon Age: Origins handles it is a fairly respectful treatment of the subject and doesn't belong alongside 'bad' examples like the God of War crap.
It's certainly a better treatment of the subject than the stuff in Duke Nukem Forever.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Vaughan was overacted and hammy, but that's a problem with execution, not a problem with the presentation of the rape itself.
Sexual assault on lower-caste women is one of the most important implications of racial hierarchies. I study medieval history for a living and I can tell you that the right of members of the upper caste group to have their way with lower-caste women with impunity was a topic of extreme preoccupation for minorities everywhere.
But the woman in mexico (Eva Cortes) is actually characterized. She has her own little story line.
lol right
the men in these games are rarely ever sexualized or shown to be as accepting of the violence as the women are.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
In Dragon Age you can play as one of those women. This is one of the reasons I think her use of Dragon Age is so profoundly dishonest.
It is shameful what a certain segment of the gaming community thinks is acceptable. over the past year, I've witnessed topics even on NeoGAF which have shocked me to its core over how disrespect and straight up misogynistic some gamers are. In one such topic, an article about a man who turned his bedroom into an 80s arcade. He became obsessed to the point where he literally ignored everything else for six months straight, and the article suggests his fiancee broke it off at that point. The article also points out she was initially supportive, helped buy stuff for the room, and even encouraged it. Until it became an obsession that despite all her attempts she was unable to break him out of. So, like any normal human being in a relationship like that, she broke it off. Because she's a person, not some trophy for some mouthbreathing obsessed gamer.
Yet over half that topic were people berating her for not supporting her man, for not allowing herself to be ignored for six months straight because he has something that clearly turned into an unhealthy obsession. People basically called her the equivalent of a shrill harpy unable to let the man have his man cave. This is the underlying attitude many gamers have. I strongly suspect it's born partially from the endless rejection a percentage of the gaming community went through due to their own unhealthy obsession with gaming, anime, etc. Some gamers don't understand there's a difference between a healthy hobby and an unhealthy hobby, and the people who cross that line generally find it difficult to maintain meaningful relationships or to even date at all. Then they start blaming the opposite sex for why they are unsuccessful, unable to look inward. It's just one element, but I think it is a contributing factor.
But more than that, there's such a persistent undercurrent of disgusting behavior in the industry that a prominent female developer cannot even speak for more than a few minutes before being turned into some grotesque hentai figure and sexualized instantly instead of respected for her innate talents. Often if this female is considered attractive, the comments that will dominate is how cute she is, how people would sleep with her (or "hit it"). In some cases, they even have creepy fanfics written about them. Shit that is legitimately frightening to the point where these talented people have to fear even walking alone. It's fucking unhealthy.
How unhealthy? I once catalogued just a tiny fraction of the horrible shit that has been happening to members of the female gaming community. I mean, this is literally just a SLICE of what has happened the past few years. It's remarkable. And yet, neoGAFer after neoGAFer walked into the fire, like lambs to a slaughter, to refute my post and others like it about the fact this is a real problem in the industry. Many refuse to even discuss it in these terms unless we acknowledge that men have to deal with troublesome shit too. User after user got banned, and it did not stop them... so entrenched were they in their hillbilly viewpoints. THAT'S how backwards elements of this community can be.
I am sorry for this tangent here, but the Zoe Quinn shit has turned my stomach completely. I shouldn't be surprised, shit like this happens in industries that are much more visible like cinema. But the persistent, dogged attacks on her for merely being a sexual individual who might have made a bad choice or two - choices that are in no way anyone's business but hers and the people in which she was involved - grew so disgusting at times that it turned the stomach. People simply don't know how to either talk to women or they simply choose not to treat them with respect because they're morons. Either way, it's a huge problem and I hope to God we can improve so we don't drive even more females out of the industry. Diversification is key to meeting the many idiosyncratic needs of gamers, and cutting out over 50% of the world's potential contribution because certain elements need to be Neanderthals is one of the biggest problems facing the industry today as far as I'm concerned.
I really cannot think of that many characters 'accepting' of the violence
Except that is not what she said; simply showing them as weak and worthless while displaying them half naked is not good enough. They are not getting to the problems that sex workers face every day, namely the people and institutions that lock them into their lifestyle. They are also positing that such instances are inevitable and almost as if we should just accept the existence of these. Not one of those sex slaves for auction are even given any sort of characterisation apart from a cheap, 2 line bio. Whereas my scenario would show how these women are brutalised and how they are manipulated into the sex trade.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Did you even watch the video in full? She addresses that. In fact, she never once said it's there to satisfy your serial rapist, she actually says the opposite, that it's there to make you feel like a Big Damn Hero (tm), and explains why it's stupid and shallow.
Yes, and there is lots of violence against men with absolutely no consideration for them as people or characters. They're just unnamed Soldiers who get maimed so you learn where not to go, or that this is a dangerous area.
That women's bodies are often shown with sexy clothing or whatever is a valid point, but it's not the same thing as what you're talking about here, which is an issue with games (and movies and books) in general, where death and violence are used for the means of storytelling or world building without subtlety or consideration.
As somebody who is, I think you are a little mistaken here. The problem isn't that women being abused is historically inaccurate, it's that women being abused as a casually accepted thing that just happens as a regrettable part of life is historically inaccurate.
Historically speaking, yes, women got abused. Here's the crazy thing: many historical societies recognized that as something that was bad and tried to do something about it. Again, vikings had laws that outlawed rape by punishment of death or banishment. Vikings
And the dystopian thing is just plain wrong. It's all speculative fiction. You can totally depict a speculative dystopian future where it isn't a common thing, which she very clearly claims.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
As accepting? What? Any examples to back that?
Fair enough the men aren't sexualized, but all the same you kill more of them more brutally than any women, with zilch given in regards to their characters.
Wolves Evolve
Member
I have been arguing with a few anti-Anita people on Twitter last couple of days and whenever I scratched the surface, they ultimately believed sexism and the representation of women in games just wasn't an issue at all. Like, I actually consider that outright delusional, not a political position to argue with. Say its not as bad as feminists make it out to be, sure. Say it is contezxt, sure. But a lot of these guys also don't accept the general point that sexism exists in games - or even sexism in general. "They have the vote, what more do they want?"
And you don't see at all how expecting that in gaming is unrealistic?
That gave me pause too. Like, damn.
Imru al-Qays;127023428 said:
It's not misleading at all. Her claim is never "therefore Dragon Age Origins as a whole is ____". Her claim is always "here is another example of this specific form of pervasive violence". The context of the game doesn't matter, the context of her video does.
It's not "misleading" to play that clip. What conclusion does she draw from it that's misleading? That's another example in the litany of scenes that portray sneering men leering at dead women. Which is exactly what she calls it.
lemon_fresh
Banned
No character = women aren't equal?
Sexy character = women are just sexual objects?
Normal character = Women can't be heroic?
Heroic character = Mrs. Male? Why are women equal?
No matter how "positive" a female character is, there will be people clamoring and saber rattling.
Honestly, it seems that she cancels out her own arguments half the time.
Sexy character = women are just sexual objects?
Normal character = Women can't be heroic?
Heroic character = Mrs. Male? Why are women equal?
No matter how "positive" a female character is, there will be people clamoring and saber rattling.
Honestly, it seems that she cancels out her own arguments half the time.
John Caboose
Member
Nice. Will watch now. Always appreciate these videos.
Oh great, another video that's an answer searching for its question. How is it that every attractive woman you can't play as is automatically sexualized window dressing? How is it that we can ignore themes and references in mass media but still analyze the work? The conclusion doesn't follow the analysis, rather, the analysis follows the thesis, which is what makes is such a poor presentation. There is no real analysis of what a scene might mean, or if they did a scene sloppily, rather Sarkeesian applies her analysis divorced of media context. That's straight-up academic dishonesty.
But I get it, Sarkeesian is providing an easy to digest target to fit her agenda. It's hard to explain the pulp and grindhouse themes in the Hitman series. It's hard to analyze the queer perspective of Agent 42. It's much easier to point at all the women and automatically turn them into objects by divorcing any context of their games. It's easy to completely remove any academic responsibility when you just construct your own reality and demand everyone else conform to it.
Of course, there's no one with the gumption, means, and the academic authority to call Sarkeesian out on this. Of course because a certain subset send her internet hate, everyone else who has genuine criticisms is similarly grouped with the less mature shitflingers.
But I get it, Sarkeesian is providing an easy to digest target to fit her agenda. It's hard to explain the pulp and grindhouse themes in the Hitman series. It's hard to analyze the queer perspective of Agent 42. It's much easier to point at all the women and automatically turn them into objects by divorcing any context of their games. It's easy to completely remove any academic responsibility when you just construct your own reality and demand everyone else conform to it.
Of course, there's no one with the gumption, means, and the academic authority to call Sarkeesian out on this. Of course because a certain subset send her internet hate, everyone else who has genuine criticisms is similarly grouped with the less mature shitflingers.
Is a problem with execution not a problem with presentation? Making the issue of rape into a casual quip seemed to weaken the impact of the game's exploration of racism and sexual violence perpetuated against the elf community.Imru al-Qays;127025378 said:
I'm aware of this (fellow historian here
)I'm just saying that I don't think Dragon Age managed to do a good job addressing that and instead made it more of a cartoonish act that didn't touch on racially motivated sexual violence with the care that they could have.
This is my take away from all of this. What is a good female character and can we get some examples?
Imru al-Qays
Banned
My problem isn't that she's portraying Dragon Age as a whole incorrectly. My problem is that she's portraying that scene incorrectly. The city elf origin has so very little in common with any of the other portrayals of rape or violence against women she includes in her video that it makes me doubt her ability to portray the issue accurately.
Is a problem with execution not a problem with presentation? Making the issue of rape into a casual quip seemed to weaken the impact of the game's exploration of racism and sexual violence perpetuated against the elf community.
I'm aware of this (fellow historian here
I'm just saying that I don't think Dragon Age managed to do a good job addressing that and instead made it more of a cartoonish act that didn't touch on racially motivated sexual violence with the care that they could have.
I don't think the city elf origin was a flawless example of how to Do Rape Right or anything. There are certainly elements they could have done better. But that's very different from including it without comment amongst a bunch of footage of hookers getting stabbed and Kratos using a naked woman to pry open a door etc. And it's very different from saying that because Bioware didn't get it exactly right they shouldn't have even tried: they did a pretty good job of it, all things considered, and they deserve at least some recognition for their efforts.
Why is it unrealistic to have a mission where you actually go after the institutions responsible for such things? Why is it so unrealistic to have a main villain who specialises in sex trafficking and other exploitative activities? Why is it unrealistic to have at least ONE of those prostitutes to become a character in a story? Yet it remains realistic that you have a computer that can control the entire mainframe of a large city from the touch of a button?
She does touch on it, but not until after she's claimed how players are supposed to enjoy "desecrating women's bodies" and feel aroused by it, which I think is dishonest as it misses the point, and it's pretty heavy projecting. Not that the point was ever that great in the first place, but still.
The purpose of the videos is to give examples that can be understood at a middle school or high school level. It was never meant to be anything more, if her Kickstarter is to be believed.