Aquamarine
Member
I'd really enjoy a video from Sarkeesian that showcases positive examples of women in video games.
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
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I'd really enjoy a video from Sarkeesian that showcases positive examples of women in video games.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
It doesn't matter though does it? It's more of a celebrity/image problem than a sexism one. How many dudes could get to the way Arnold or Batista look? Same issue with young women and female celebrities.
*crickets chirp, for the most part*
Also, this is a laughable representation of the scientific method.
What you are stating is the exact opposite of the scientific method. The scientific method would be to propose a hypothesis, proceed to collect and analyze data in totality, regardless of what your hypothesis was, and then compare the results to said hypothesis for a new conclusion/hypothesis.
Conducting yourself in a manner designed solely to explore/"prove" a hypothesis is not the scientific method. It's what the scientific method was created to avoid.
the issue is though is that they're rarely sexualized in any comparable way.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Oh come on. There are also quite a few games that throw the typical damsel in distress trope on its head, even back in the 8-bit era.
Yeah.
There are male game characters designed for women/girls too though. Bishonens are just that. Flynn Rider from Tangled was designed by having a crap ton of women pick out what they thought was sexy.
So unless you have a women looking over your shoulder telling you "That's hot." It probably isn't. Honestly, male objectification weirds me out and makes me feel ashamed of my "female gaze." =/
I believe she's going to or has already done a video of positive female leads. I remember her talking well of the Beyond Good and Evil female protagonist.
Zomba13
Member
I think she was planning on doing a video at the very end? (can't find the planned episode list so might be completely wrong here)
If she does they would also be held to negative tropes too I think. Which is the whole point of the series but I also think it'd be nice to highlight more positive female characters and be all like "this is what you should be doing more of".
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I don't understand? If we look at wrestlers for example, they are pretty much naked save for undies, sweaty, tanned, and tatooed. Super heroes are often dashing motherfuckers whose costumes get ripped in fights and so on. They are still sexualized?
Edit: Or how about Daniel Craig in the new bonds, shirt always undone, coming out of the ocean in speedos. Who is that for if not the women?
Watched the video? She will also make a video dedicated to that.
Ever actually watched Wrestling?
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Kratos is just an over-the-top character that people just take in stride. I doubt most people are playing thinking "yeah, now I can rip that guy in 2". I mean, is that how you feel when you're playing the games? Also, Kratos has been depicted as a villain from beginning to end so your choice of the use of the word "justice" is very odd.
Your reasoning boils down to - is he muscular but not sexualised? No. Then he is a male power fantasy.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
A you guys seriously questioning that Kratos is a male power fantasy? Seriously? Or is this just intelectual dishonesty on display?
So why the question if they are sexualized or not? You should know better.
Use to watch it in middle school, I remeber these dudes:
So why the question if they are sexualized or not? You should know better.
Zomba13
Member
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Kratos and wrestlers are shirtless and glistening not for sexualisation but to show off their muscles (their power) and to liken them to gladiators.
What should be done is, as women are so often sexualised, powerful men are often animalised. Their strength and power is shown off while their intelligence and other mental aspects are ignored or downplayed for the sake of strength. Like warriors in RPGs all have low int but high str. They are just monsters that crush and destroy and leave the thinking to others (Kratos, Most GoW mans, Asura).
Like, how often do wrestlers make coherent points or go about matches or behind the scenes things in a smart way? Most promos are incoherent ramblings about how they are going to crush their opponent.
Anyway, don't want to derail any longer. Just think it's silly to say Kratos and wrestlers (and most other buff men) are sexualised and also think it's silly to compare woman sexualisation to men's "sexualisation" when I personally feel a better stance in the lack of intelligence to sexualisation. Both dehumanise the gender and play up the most stereotypical aspects of said gender in place of actual characterisation (though you could rightly say women have it happen more).
This shit with Kratos always comes up in these discussions. I practically hate the God of War series if only because Kratos has become a giant red herring when it comes to these threads. What an annoying guy.
We, as in Globalized Western culture. :9
Danae. Danae. Danae. Danae.
Golden showers...
Academic Art caused the stagnation of portraiture and history paintings. They all copied Titian and Raphael and called it a day...
Venus. Venus.
There's a lot more.
Manet simply asked: "Why is it okay to get away with painting naked women?" And then everyone was like "Because it's romantic and mythical!"
Then Manet drew a modern day prostitute in the same position as Titian's Venus painting and everyone flipped out. Manet was a class A troll. He made everyone angry on purpose to show how the depiction of women in every drawing was pretty uhh, silly. How coming drawing something "mythic & sexual" is okay...But drawing something "modern & sexual" is condemning. He kept drawing naked prostitutes with fully dressed men just to make fun of how stupid it looked.
The dude asked an important question.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Oh I see we've had a bit of a miscommunication lol. She was saying that male and female celebrities aren't comparable in terms of sexualization. I brought up the examples I did, to make the point does it really matter if they aren't comparable, as these dudes are still very sexualized. I probably shouldn't have used the question mark at the end.
Chawlie was saying that they ARE sexualized. It's obvious that they are. You seemed to be the one saying they were not.
On the contrary, when you compare male representation to what women are actually attracted to(re: sourced, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4 ), the overwhelming majority of men in games and media are hyper sexualized. They're desired by females, they're successful, they're excessively slash borderline ridiculously competent. All of these are stereotypical traits of attraction for women.
Attempting to say that women are used sheerly for their attraction potential(re: sexualized) and men are not, because women are scantily clad more than men, is ridiculous. Men and women are attracted to different things. As such, they are depicted and sexualized in different ways.
Your idea that men and women aren't sexualized in a "comparable way", makes as much sense as men and women being sexually attracted in a "comparable way". Which is, none. Because they're not.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
But Power is sexy? Surely that taps into a primal trigger, the big dude can kill the small dude?
Edit: like an Alpha male thing, nice guys finish last etc etc
Kratos is over the top, the same way rambo or an arnold in predator is over the top. Also what is the point of focusing on all the gory scenes in god of war, if they weren't meant to have any affect on the player. They were obviously put there to make the player feel more powerful and have a sense of being unstoppable. I haven't played god of war, but from what I gather he is the way he is because he was tricked into killing his own family. It's a reason for his journey, but I guess that's not really justice.
Well, she is right. I'm just surprised by your dishonesty towards the obvious. If you think that Superman, the ultimate power fantasy, is sexualized in the same way his damsel is, than welp.
And being powerless is the "sexiness" that is reserved for women. Thats why we have a discussion.
Except that lots of media also emphasize male characters who are very smart, and the women there are also still just sex objects. I mean, Sherlock Holmes is the epitome of smarty-man literature, and the lady who's allowed to be as smart as him still has to be sexualized.
Is it too much to ask that women be characterized in rational, capable, and real ways, without having to allude to how much the presumed-male audience would like to fuck her or drink her bath water?
SaggyMonkey
Member
So once a character has been labeled a male power fantasy, then what? Why is that bad?
But why print news about the good that Spider-Man does when there's so many copies of the Daily Bugle to be sold on the small fact that he was photographed with Doctor Doom once (removing the context that was to punch him and save new york from Victor's new super death ray)?
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
They aren't sexualized in the same way you are right.
But there are very few real life supermans, just as there are very few real life barbies. Both are an incredibly hard, mostly unrealistic image to achieve.
I just don't see how one is worse than the other.
Oersted said:
So now all dudes have to be powerful to be sexy? How is that not just as unfair?
because one is a power fantasy and the other is indicative of society's obsession with equating a female's worth to her beauty and sex appeal
I'd love to see this too. But she probably will never respond to questions asking to see that.
Get an entire video dedicated to examining positive female characters while highlighting how they miss the usual tropes.
So your argument is " I don't see why it is worse."?
Its adressed on this very page that she will make such a video. Good grief you guys.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I don't. If both are mostly unrealistic on both sides of the spectrum, how is one worse than the other?
It's not 'bad', but it's a step towards understanding how various types of media (books, comics, games, movies, etc.) are overwhelmingly framed only for males (intentionally, or unintentionally)
I often complain that Anita only uses AAA titles in her examples. I think it's telling that big block buster hits are actually perpetuating these negative stereotypes and concepts. This video was quite good at pointing out how recycled and derivative these set pieces are in modern games.
I am somewhat upset that she rarely and sparsely touches on games that do handle such ideas properly. I did like how she quoted Papo & Yo which is a fantastic game of traumatic material but she could of used more examples of good female characters to offset and contrast all the bad ones she uses.
Then again I am still angry at her lumping ICO with Kane & Lynch in her previous episode.
I am somewhat upset that she rarely and sparsely touches on games that do handle such ideas properly. I did like how she quoted Papo & Yo which is a fantastic game of traumatic material but she could of used more examples of good female characters to offset and contrast all the bad ones she uses.
Then again I am still angry at her lumping ICO with Kane & Lynch in her previous episode.
Both are unrealistic images, but characters like superman seem to be more positively received by people, because he embodies everything right in the world, while characters like barbies represent only beauty.
Being successful and competent in killing people (the most common 'talent' that male protagonist in games posses) is not a stereotypical trait that attracts women. Can you define any other credible way in which they are successful and competent that is desirable for women?
Male protagonists are are designed by male developers with a male public in mind. Yet you think they are coincidentally 'hyper sexualized' for women? You will have to be way more specific to be even slightly convincing with this argument.
Zomba13
Member
You're completely right. Didn't mean at all to sound like I was ignoring the positive (or well, not as negative. Sherlock is brilliant but he's a socially inept dick.) representations in media and how comparatively, females on an equal footing are still sexualised.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Ted Talk about Disney Princesses/Females in Kids Movies
Both Superman and Barbie have for the most part unachievable physique, and while barbie speficially isn't the bane of intelligence and moral, the disney princesses are, whilst retaining the beauty.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
You can't compare Rambo/Arnold to Kratos. Rambo was fighting to free innocent people. Arnold was fighting for survival. I'm not saying that they weren't meant to affect the player - just that Kratos wasn't meant to be identified with. Otherwise, they wouldn't have made him the a-hole he is.
you could google the schedule to see that yes, a section will be dedicated to positive examples
Good question!
Maybe because if you found him sexually attractive you'd be seen as a bad person? I don't know. However, I do know that art movements have always had a profound fascination with the primal, sublime, spiritual, sexual, and subconscious part of our minds.
A lot of games have us playing the criminal or more morally free character. I think that's for the same reason. We'll always need forms of media to talk to that part of our minds.
I was just thinking about this after watching Winter Soldier but I realized that recent Marvel movies do a good job of being inclusive as far as fair fan-service for both sexes. There's been a huge increase of female friends who became die-hard fans of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, etc -- never thought I'd see that day. It'd be cool to see AAA games follow its example too. The closest to that I can see in games is the Uncharted series (though it's mild on both fronts).
To be fair, certain forum members on GAF find a certain Sherlock TV show actor Thenagain Bumbleswoons to be sexual dynamite, so what do I know
Ok, I stand corrected then. I am lazy. Thank you.
First of all, "the I don't see it" argument was never a compelling one. Yes, you don't. You are the one in power. Furthermore, yes the sexualization of men is bad and it has negative effects. But its based on being in power. You, because you are a male, are supposed to be in power. In power over the women. Women want to overcome that. As a result, the sexualization of men as power fantasies might get changed. That is called feminism.
Zomba13
Member
I actually tried googling (tropes vs women episode list and tropees vs women schedule) and couldn't find it. Found it on the kickstarter page though.
Looking forward to "Mrs. Male Character - Video #8" and "Man with Boobs - Video #10" as in one of the earlier videos a suggestion to get around some tropes was basically to have Zelda in Link's shoes or Peach in Mario's which is basically Mrs. Male Character right?
Oh yeah, that Bumblebee Cumberbund is certainly a man that has aspects that make women folk swoon.
You mean the A-hole that spends the last half of his final game in a terrible attempt to redeem him? "You unleashed hope!"
Just because we see he's a terrible shithead doesn't mean it was the intent of the creative vision behind the game (well, it was arguably for the first game). He's not a deep character. If he's not a power fantasy, why has he been in 6 games? What is so compelling about him if he's really just a shithead and everyone knows that? Does the average person really think in terms of Kratos' morality? Or do they just yell "badass!" when he rips a cyclops' eye out?
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
She already did Mrs Male Character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqYLfm1rWA
Actually think of Ms Pac-Man more than Zelda.
Zomba13
Member
OH you're right. I hate to (potentially?) break one of the rules but it's been so long since that one came out I forgot and was going off the order listed on the kickstarter page (where Background Decoration if a few before Mrs Male Character).
I feel stupid now and should probably rewatch it seeing as how I forgot it was even out.
Sexiest Sherlock forreal tho:
Uuggghhhh that was so baaaaaad.
He should have just died the most gruesome death imaginable and have his remains spread out throughout the universe so that he may never become whole again in fear of resurrection. and most importantly, he should have died angry. The storyline was all about Kratos being a monster, but the ultimate hubris is never served. What a fucking waste.
That's because you don't see how BBC Sherlock is being sexualised, probably because the sexualisation doesn't register with you. All the women i've talked to about this show is positively drooling over Cumberbatch, and I don't think it is because he is really really smart. And that's ok. Because that means i get to drool over Christina Hendricks in Mad Men. Fair's fair.
And yeah just the other day i got "can wee see this episode pls, i've heard that we get to see Sherlock naked in this one".
So using Sherlock was probably a really poor example on your part.