The way you bolded it seemed like a play on the phrase, my mistake.
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
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The way you bolded it seemed like a play on the phrase, my mistake.
SocksForWoks
Banned
Are prostitutes getting held up or shot to start off a side-quest all the "adult" themes in video games these days?
Opiate actually made a thread about this in OT titled Complex Problems and the Diffusion of Blame. He describes he phenomenon as:
People agree that something is a problem but since there isn't a singular cause of that problem and thus no one person or entity to point the finger at and get them to fix their shit, no one does anything and were back to square one. Square one being we still having this problem staring us in the face that needs solving.
I made a couple of posts in that thread and I will repeat myself here. Most if not all societal problems don't have a singular cause for them. Recognizing such is no excuse for not doing your part to help solve it.
Even more importantly, are these prostitutes well-developed characters with nuanced personalities/backstories and well written dialogue, whose plight isn't simply inserted into the story to drive the (assumed) male player into a "save the women in danger" male fantasy?
lorebringer
Member
Posting this here because I think this is relevant to the broader theme of rampant misogyny in the industry and recent events. Idle Thumbs spend a little while talking about the specifics of the last few weeks in a very clear and direct way at the start of the most recent episode. Very much worth anybody's time to have a listen to at least the first segment of the podcast.
samueljustice00
Member
The problem is terrible, lazy, half assed writing/writers in video games that see these situations as the easiest to wrap gameplay around.
Generally, no.
Would you say the same about CSI and all the spinoffs and iterations of that particular genre? I ask, mainly because they seem to be successful in genre and series as being well written, but the focus is always on the "enforcement" side of things (not going to address any reality parity in accuracy instances) opposed to making the entire episode about caring for the victim (although in some instances the main characters do spend a brief moment to reflect on this). IE, the show is about the detectives/lawyiers not the criminals/victims. To draw a parrallel within games, the player/main character being the detective/lawyier.
What you are suggesting would be more along the lines of having a mini-series about the victim before and after the actual crime episode in order for it to be viewed as not demeaning to the victim in question (gender or other factors aren't really germaine here).
I wish Anita would tackle that topic instead of "tropes in games". It would be a for more effective way to address the problem than what she's currently doing, IMO.
I agree, but I'd wager the actual "solving it" is much harder(and varies from person to person) then just saying help solve it. We have seen calling them out doesn't seem to do much(in a lot of ways they get off on it). Honestly, I think figuring out a way for them to have real world consequences for death threats and the like is what is needed, and that I think requires trying to get authorities more involved? I dunno, while I agree with the sentiment, actually solving the problem is not an easy thing(or even figuring out what does solve it).
lorebringer
Member
Well it's not like it's an either/or proposition. Both are symptomatic of the deep rooted issues with misogyny that exist in video game culture and both deserve consideration. It's just multiple facets of the same problems.
I disagree. I think one is the disease, while Anita is simply pointing out the symptoms.
Twitter has a real bad track record when it comes to cooperating with authorities to hold its users accountable. Twitter has a real bad track record when it comes to holding its users accountable even just within the service.
Ah. Super good. Will catch this on the drive home today. Hope Danielle is on.
I figure the problem is they're wrapping these situations around the gameplay. If gameplay is the priority, and that gameplay requires murdering thousands of digipeople, there's no possible way to make any story except "the effects of murder on the human psyche". That's why Spec Ops succeeds, that's the story they're telling. Can't do that story more than a few times though.
Eh, I think "thinking vile thoughts" is the disease and "lashing out violently" is the symptom. If you introduce better Internet accountability, you've maybe cut off vile Internet threats (which--hey--would be great), but you still have a lot of people with toxic stuff in their hearts. Different people working on different problems is the only way to get a job like this done.
You would win that wager. If this was an easy problem to literally solve then it would have been dealt with years ago. It's not however and that's why I choose my words the way I did.
Serpens007
Member
Thanks for pointing out that, I just finished watching it and I see the point of the video.
I do not agree on a 100% what she said, but she made good points on portraying beating women as a bad thing just for making a villain and giving the player a motive.
But the thing now is, should devs leave all of that out of their games, unless the game it's precisely about that so it can touch it in a mature and serious way?
EdibleKnife
Member
I wouldn't label that same criticism because the normalization of dead bodies of all varieties is inherent to the job of a forensic pathologist/crime scene investigator. Which is why I'm ok with most of the stuff within L.A. Noire. I only take issue with the use of it/and or the sexualization of suffering or death individuals in areas (such as Watch_Dogs, or Assassin's Creed) Where the use of a character whose only purpose is to die doesn't come off as any more than an incentive for the player when the same effect could come from a number of different avenues.
theshape31
Member
Name one 12-year-old that is able to figure out who her parents are, where they live, and drive past it. Yes, there are some children of that age who have learned every cuss word in the book and attempt to use them in the manner that they were shown. But no 12-year-old can put together the thoughts in that threat as they are. A little kid would have random sentence fragments and words in places that don't make sense. They don't have the mental capacity to put fear into every adult that reads it, especially considering the personal information involved.Have you played Call of Duty online?
You may have been half-serious or even joking, but the example you gave is not relatable to the threat being discussed.
This was a genuinely good episode. I felt she did well to explain the issue well, providing evidence and good ways to contextualise and justify the inclusion of a particular piece as evidence.
I think the video does well to explain why, whilst looked at in a vacuum, a scripted instance of a woman being attacked with either implied or explicit sexual assault may not appear to be an issue - more intended as a piece of 'world building', that if you do take a few step backs and actually look at how necessary it is, how important it is for the narrative, to the immersion of the player into a world or particular scenario - more often than not, it isn't important at all and probably does fall into this trope.
I admit to being one of those people who sometimes mistakes the intentions of a piece with that piece being an issue or not. For example, if the developers who include these classic 'woman in distress' scenarios intend to include it to invoke that "male fantasy" or whether it is purely coincidental, or even just done because it is already a common theme in entertainment. I do now see that is irrelevant in most instances.
The important detail is how the scenario is wheeled out so trivially, without meaningful purpose and consequence.
I think the video does well to explain why, whilst looked at in a vacuum, a scripted instance of a woman being attacked with either implied or explicit sexual assault may not appear to be an issue - more intended as a piece of 'world building', that if you do take a few step backs and actually look at how necessary it is, how important it is for the narrative, to the immersion of the player into a world or particular scenario - more often than not, it isn't important at all and probably does fall into this trope.
I admit to being one of those people who sometimes mistakes the intentions of a piece with that piece being an issue or not. For example, if the developers who include these classic 'woman in distress' scenarios intend to include it to invoke that "male fantasy" or whether it is purely coincidental, or even just done because it is already a common theme in entertainment. I do now see that is irrelevant in most instances.
The important detail is how the scenario is wheeled out so trivially, without meaningful purpose and consequence.
Byron Bluth
Banned
The issue is that feminists are rallying together under the opinions of ONE person.
Anita has good points and bad ones, and some outright staged scenes from games taken out of context both within story and gameplay terms, but one person should not be the voice of feminism in the gaming community.
More women need to get into the conversation to ensure she isn't the gospel of misogyny in gaming.
Anita has good points and bad ones, and some outright staged scenes from games taken out of context both within story and gameplay terms, but one person should not be the voice of feminism in the gaming community.
More women need to get into the conversation to ensure she isn't the gospel of misogyny in gaming.
I'd be seriously interested in writing about misogyny in non M-rated games. Not as any sort of deflection, but I think there's a lot to work with that would otherwise be ignored, and the ways it's rooted into some of those games is more revealing about the cultural influences than "does prostitution exist." Open-world, M-rated games whose whole existence is predicated on seedy, illegal behavior strike me as low-hanging fruit for a topic like this.
I'm one of the biggest fans out there of Forza Horizon, but that game uses some weird subtext about the festival organizer character in relation to the player-driver. Someone who ostensibly has authority over you feeding the player a string of submissive-attraction semiotics in the script and behaviors, including the implications about her relationship to the current festival champion, just felt forced/weird and unnecessary. And this to someone in the "target" demographic.
I'm one of the biggest fans out there of Forza Horizon, but that game uses some weird subtext about the festival organizer character in relation to the player-driver. Someone who ostensibly has authority over you feeding the player a string of submissive-attraction semiotics in the script and behaviors, including the implications about her relationship to the current festival champion, just felt forced/weird and unnecessary. And this to someone in the "target" demographic.
With images like the one Lime linked earlier in the thread, it really is a wonder why more of us gals aren't more outspoken.
Not that I want to excuse them in any way shape or form for being non-responsive to harassment claims, but note that this is useful when it comes to dealing with dissent from within authoritarian regimes.
The Librarian
Banned
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It is dreadfully naive to automatically jump to "it was just kids".
Another solid episode. She has shown consistent growth during each episode, and I appreciate she continues to make these videos. I would understand if she said screw it after all the harassment since the initial Kickstarter. But nope, she continues to solider on, and I respect her for that.
The victims aren't always deceased. One series deals specifically with sexual based crimes. The parrallel isn't any different within the medium I brought up, since the victims only purpose in the show is to be a victim, the criminal's only purpose is to be the bad guy, the detective's only purpose is to be the hero/protagonist. It is precicely the same. The quality of the story may vary, but the method of mechanics are no different.
"Ms. Male character" is still da best
There are plenty of women "in the conversation." There are women posting in this very thread. And no, we're not all under some Anita banner.
I took it as more "it's possible it isn't a sociopath who's actually committed and will continue to commit these real-world acts," especially with the intent of the poster about how to deal with that person.
The Librarian
Banned
nu uh!
Get out of here with your...real world examples, lol
That may be the case but that is sociopathatic behavior and I'm sure the person knew what they were doing and knew that it it was wrong. Either way what do we get from even having this conversation?
No more or less than we got from injecting the surrounding harassment of Sarkeesian into our reactions to the newest video? I was clarifying because two people weren't understanding each other. Someone who's deeply emotional could produce the same vitriolic harassment that we're talking about.
EdibleKnife
Member
The major issue that Anita addresses rather and that I support is that within the confines of the video games the victims of the darker crimes are overwhelmingly female and overwhelmingly has little purpose beyond set dressing. In order to start their journey as the hero, a detective or lawyer needs a victim to which a crime has occurred. And even within series like Law and Order/CSI that pool of victims spans a range of ages and genders. So in terms of Assassin's Creed, the assassin, whose job is mostly to kill marks or Watch_Dogs where Aiden is simply a hacker, why then do both specifically need to include scenes where women are the victims of violence when there are more relevant ways for either character to act as the hero? IMO that is a more thoughtful way of spurning the player and/or character to action.
no prob, it's all good
That was another stellar episode! I want to say that was around the time she started to reveal her talents.
I've actually avoided posting in the thread so far because I don't really support her commentary about RDR. So many things are just window dressing in open world games because of the limits of technology and content creation time, and npc population is one of them. I'd love to see every character in a town have a real motivation and backstory and importance, but it's not going to happen as long as you have to mocap and voice act every interaction.
The Librarian
Banned
I don't understand why criticizing videogames from a female point of view elicits such...horrible reactions.
stufte
Member
Because there are lots of horrible people in the world, and some of them REALLY like video games.
I'm mainly saying those comments are deplorable and Anita shouldn't have to face them for talking about video games from the feminist perspective. The person who made the comments mental well being is irrelevant and doesn't really deserve our commentary. This should not be. Period.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Then I apologize.
The Librarian
Banned
It's not even that. I've been accused of having an agenda here on NeoGAF for simply point out a lack of women at Halo pro tournaments.
IdreamofHIME
Member
She's getting much better at actually making an argument for her view, rather than show 30 mins on clips with no context.
My reply to her talking about how it's impossible to have a game world without domestic violence, but dragons and 1ups are OK is that the world has gone gaga for 'gritty' over the last decade or so.
Rightly or wrongly, bleak is chic right now. Look at the rule WB has set out for their DC movies...no jokes! Fyck that noise, but Moody and brooding tragic heroes are popular.
That Kratos thing though, what a stain on the maturity of the whole industry. What were they thinking?
My reply to her talking about how it's impossible to have a game world without domestic violence, but dragons and 1ups are OK is that the world has gone gaga for 'gritty' over the last decade or so.
Rightly or wrongly, bleak is chic right now. Look at the rule WB has set out for their DC movies...no jokes! Fyck that noise, but Moody and brooding tragic heroes are popular.
That Kratos thing though, what a stain on the maturity of the whole industry. What were they thinking?
And thankfully the person who made that accusation was immediately banned. I like to think the community overall is respectful.