New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
- Start date
The individual examples aren't important, it's how casually and without consequence it is wheeled out with a very specific intention. It usually isn't there to add realism, it's there to demonstrate a horrible situation, character, environment, etc.
I don't believe this means that games should never include violence against women be it in a sexual context or not, but I feel that if you don't focus too much on individual examples and try and explain away the context for them, you see that it is often included as nothing but a sideshow to demonstrate that dark or 'seedy' world.
I think that is the part that is an issue. The trivial nature of the encounters and transparent aim for including it, it's shallow and usually not at all realistic.
I wasn't a fan of the first episode, I felt Anita projected too much in regards to how people are supposed to play games, how they're invited and encouraged to do certain things (even when that isn't true), it had some serious misrepresentations of what many of us see as the reality of the situation, so I had a rather negative first impression of the series. This second episode felt tight, arguments were presented independently of individual examples (to help avoid getting caught up in the unimportant details of that particular example) and in general there was less projection from Anita herself and felt there was a better analysis provided.
I don't believe this means that games should never include violence against women be it in a sexual context or not, but I feel that if you don't focus too much on individual examples and try and explain away the context for them, you see that it is often included as nothing but a sideshow to demonstrate that dark or 'seedy' world.
I think that is the part that is an issue. The trivial nature of the encounters and transparent aim for including it, it's shallow and usually not at all realistic.
I wasn't a fan of the first episode, I felt Anita projected too much in regards to how people are supposed to play games, how they're invited and encouraged to do certain things (even when that isn't true), it had some serious misrepresentations of what many of us see as the reality of the situation, so I had a rather negative first impression of the series. This second episode felt tight, arguments were presented independently of individual examples (to help avoid getting caught up in the unimportant details of that particular example) and in general there was less projection from Anita herself and felt there was a better analysis provided.
Messofanego
Banned
Apparently this is floating around Twitter to help people identify and boycott the evil Social Justice Warrior/Bard/Mage/etc. oppressors:
This is a badge of honour. Can't wait for Dreamfall Chapters!
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Maybe. I thought some of her individual examples were pretty clearly misrepresentations.
thewhitehawk
Member
I think you're showing a really poor attitude in the face of this problem. You are in the face of one of the most passionate gaming communities on the planet and rather than honouring or at least respecting what those people you mentioned have or are going through you act pessimistic and ask them to lay down their arms and go home.
I don't like the fact that we have this loud misogynistic minority of assholes with a keyboard that pursue people that defend sexual equality in video games. I don't like that the male dominated game development scene breeds scenes that convey opposite sexes in uneven manners.
The very worst thing we could do is to accept this as the "reality" or simply the way things have to be, and that we were to primitive, silent or consensual to do anything about it.
I've bought and enjoyed some of the games mentioned in the video this thread points to, but no one pointed out to me that I'd be exposed to depictions of women in the way they were. I think its something we should be more attentive towards and more critical of as consumers.
Daffy Duck
Member
But who are the players/devs that site it is there for realism that's the question I am asking.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Dragon Age, especially. Also the random prostitute knifings in Red Dead.
I don't think it's bad to make videos critiquing these aspects. I have a problem specifically with Sarkeesian's misrepresentations of certain games, as well as her refusal to actually discuss ways of improving the things she finds objectionable. I also don't think it's helpful to denounce a particular usage of a trope in a particular video game if you wouldn't give a shit if that trope were used in the same way in a book or movie etc.
The Storyteller
Member
Imru’ al-Qays;127423628 said:
That assessment only goes so far - yes Game of Thrones often depicts sexual violence flippantly (and the show gets called out on that front quite a lot) - but the show has so much more to say about women's role in that society, than any game depicting the same violent material, ever has. Many of the women are also exceptionally well developed, with agency and their own stories. The same cannot be said for the women in most video games.
This is hilarious/depressing.
I think you're misunderstanding. I was saying that I wouldn't blame people for stop engaging with video game culture because of the toxic nature of the community. I wasn't saying we should be complacent with the status quo nor am I saying that they should just up and leave - far from it. I respect Sarkeesian and others who have gone through the same hardship enormously. But I also respect and understand why others before her have given up, considering parts of the community's behaviour.
Just saw that poster. Wow.
Schafer - OG game designer.
Vlambeer - Euro/Arab designer.
Fullbright - Small, male/female mixed team. Previous AAA
If you make a list full of people from all corners of the game dev world, wouldn't it start to occur to you that maybe, just maybe, you're the odd one out?
Schafer - OG game designer.
Vlambeer - Euro/Arab designer.
Fullbright - Small, male/female mixed team. Previous AAA
If you make a list full of people from all corners of the game dev world, wouldn't it start to occur to you that maybe, just maybe, you're the odd one out?
The people making those kind of pictures and spreading them are pretty much loudly proclaiming they're little shits. "You must boycott EA because they support equal human rights in the society!"
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Imru al-Qays;127422917 said:
It's still using sexualized violence as a cheap way to depict the evil. Just because it's showing the badness of society rather than random villain 37-J doesn't change that. The episode was "women as background decoration." That's what was going on, those women being kidnapped are set dressing whose woman-ness is being used to show the player the setting. They are female elves, so they will be taken as prizes because evil.
At least if you choose to be the female elf, you were taken and were part of it, but then you get into using the threat of rape or assault as a cheap way for character development. But with the male elf, it becomes a bunch of damsels in distress.
Imru al-Qays;127422917 said:
She didn't rank them all, there was no wrongness level attached. They were both examples of the subject of the video.
Personally to me, it was more annoying in Dragon Age because when I played it, I played as the female city elf. So my first impression of the game was "they started with this?"
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Why is it cheap? What does this mean?
This argument is constructed so broadly you may as well say that all depictions of violence against women in games are problematic.
The fact that the female elf is playable is extremely relevant, since part of Sarkeesian's thesis is that this sort of thing is objectionable in part because it exists to titillate "presumed straight male players."
That's the problem. They were completely different and she treated them as being the same.
Why did you find that objectionable?
No one is attributing that to her. The actual flaws in her videos and criticism to those are on her. She's getting called out on quickly jumping on any and all possible depictions of female characters completely dismissing the context.
Coreda
Member
Imru al-Qays;127424453 said:
She does discuss these things, and so far you've re-iterated two or three examples you think shouldn't be included as you feel they 'aren't as bad' as other representations featured, and seem to focus on that almost as if that invalidates the value of the video.
That's literally what she does in all her videos. And who are you to say I wouldn't care about other forms of media? It doesn't take a degree to realize there are problematic representations of various people in the media, and magnifying minor faults with videos such as these doesn't convince me you see their value.
The Storyteller
Member
Please elaborate on some of these contexts for us.
Like this context maybe?
https://twitter.com/AdamGoodallYes/status/504826648668024832
EdibleKnife
Member
Imru al-Qays;127425455 said:
Because in a mature game it is almost always the end result of the damsel in distress trope. Not only do you have to save this hot woman who is helpless, you have to save her from another man who want's to savage her in some way. It's so consistent that you can almost set your clock by it. It's a ploy to garner a reaction from the expected male players by using the female as a prop for sexualized or sexual related violence to happen upon. At the same time, never have I personally seen a man in the same situation, being put in a situation where they are under threat of sexualized violence within a video game. Where are the orcs who want to kill all the village females and capture the men to take back to their pens? Are all depictions of violence or even threat of sexual harm against a woman really so bad they should be banished from all game writing? Not really. But taken alongside the roles that we very often see women in (sex object, or a prize to be won) it's no wonder that people are pleading for the depictions to be reduced. It's insane that so many AAA mature games have this running theme of the killing of a woman (sex worker or otherwise) as a spur for the action of the play or protagonist while not many of them have female characters with depth or expanded roles beyond the protagonist's girlfriend.
Orniletter
Banned
...they got boycotting EA right at least...but for the wrong reasons.
On a serious note: What a load of shit. SWJ/LGBT- clique ?
figadapaura
Member
I will support all of them.
Even EA, but only because they have a few games I can't not buy.
>_>
It's the new "homosexual agenda."
Turns out 70-year-old shut ins and 20-something shut ins finally having something in common.
EdibleKnife
Member
I've never understood the SJW thing. As if being socially aware/empathetic was a bad thing. No one is looking to puritanically sanitize games. People who feel that they lack inoffensive representation are speaking up. Yet you get called a SJW because...you care about the representation of the underrepresented? Is that not what we as humans should strive for? Even more telling that they lump it in with LGBT representation as a bad thing and something that's encroaching on the way they play games.
oppressed groups that gamers have tried to force out of their hobby have formed their own tightly knit social groups, which on its own is evidence of an evil conspiracy against us!
some people desperately need a life, and this is coming from me
A bit late, but I wonder what Gaynor is actually referring to. Just because Minerva's Den is about a man who griefs about his wife doesn't mean it's the woman in refrigerator trope. The player doesn't even witness the death. If I remember correctly is the character also not revenge driven and the wife died through natural causes.
Basically it's a group of people who are so very easily offended by pretty much anything and everyone that it reaches a point where no matter what you do or say will offend some tender soul out there. Hell, even calling someone "her" or "him" on tumbler can get you threatened, herassed and doxxed by the SJW out there because you did not respect their fantasy/otherkin or whatever they like to call themselves.
No, humans should strive for mutual understanding not tip toeing on eggshells because they are afraid of "opressing" someone. This is not what She and her "friends" are doing. They are playing professional victims. Crying death/rape threats yet not understanding that males get those as wel, it's called trolling. You get called a SJW when you expect everyone, to respect every idea/fantasy that these people think up on a daily basis yet they seem to forget that respect is earned, not expected/demanded.
Oppression? People who have access to TV's, consoles, homes, cars, money have no reason to call themselves oppressed. Just because 90% of the world doesn't agree with your fantasies doesn't make you oppressed. You would be oppressed if you were forced to play those games, or think a certain way, but you are not. It's the SJW who are forcing their "ideology" on others. Do as I say not as I do kind of deal.
-------------
I can not for the life of me understand why anyone (male or female) would take her video's are truth, let alone give that woman 160.000 dollar to make these video's. Every "fact" she sums up in here video's are either wrong or taken horribly out of context. Not to mention that there is plenty of video's out there where Anita happily claims not to be a gamer. I think that is her target audience as well, the people who do not game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afgtd8ZsXzI
Example of context?
Hitman: She claims the games' aim is for the player to derive pleasure from killing those strippers and dragging their corpse around, when in fact the goal is to sneak past them undetected as killing them will lower your score. As would any civilian/innocent kill in that game. Yet the only footage she shows is where she just shoots them and drags them around...way to cherry-pick your content.
So yea, expect people to lash out (troll) when some person shames the thing they enjoy doing. And if this trend keeps up, it will impact game development and utterly destroy any fun to be had in order not to offend the easily offended. Even more so because they whine about games they can always decide to, I dunno, NOT PLAY the game then?!
Messofanego
Banned
lol at this:
I now want every website to have the ALL OF THEM tag to it.
So if someone from 4chan or whatever misogynistic pit asks how many "SJW" game journalists/writers there are, they have to respond with:
I now want every website to have the ALL OF THEM tag to it.
So if someone from 4chan or whatever misogynistic pit asks how many "SJW" game journalists/writers there are, they have to respond with:
TheHollowNight
Member
I'm going to let someone else who has the time of day to reply to this properly, but wow. There is so much in this post I'm utterly amazed at.
thesurfshop19
Member
I hope no one wastes their time trying.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Jesus Christ. Just gonna address the last paragraph here.
1. The videos are not about 'shaming'
2. No it won't destroy all the fun in games
I don't even know why I bother typing this.
Books and movies have had this same sort of critique to applied to them for decades and it hasn't destroyed them so why would games be different? Could it be that gamers are just generally younger and more insecure and can't take any criticism applied to their hobby?
1. The videos are not about 'shaming'
2. No it won't destroy all the fun in games
I don't even know why I bother typing this.
Books and movies have had this same sort of critique to applied to them for decades and it hasn't destroyed them so why would games be different? Could it be that gamers are just generally younger and more insecure and can't take any criticism applied to their hobby?
I'm surprised you haven't seen this before, since it's said a lot. The kinds of people who see a criticism of an element of a game as an attack on the designers often seem quick to point out that the game developers can't really be blamed, as sexual violence is a common real world occurrence. It's just realism, and therefor devoid of seixsm. (As if the real world isn't inundated with sexism.)
This of course ignores the fact that this isn't at all a pre-existing real world that the developers are somehow beholden to, but a world of their own creation. There is plenty of choice.
I was wondering if someone would mention the avatar. (And now that I'm awake, I see that at least two people have!)
Personally I find the show almost unwatchable at this point because of how heavily they have decided to rely on rape as background, much more so than it appears even in the books. The mishandling and misunderstanding of many of the female characters that populate ASOIAF -- Brienne especially -- has been annoying as well, but that's way off-topic.
What does relate directly to the topic, however, is that a huge part of the problem with the show's overuse of rape, particularly in the last season, is that it shows a laziness and a desire to shock rather than an examination of characters. It's background and texture, just like the examples here, and I criticize it often. In the books a great deal of time is spent examining the plight of the poor, both male and female, but the show spends considerably more time on female suffering, almost always sexual, than it does dealing with actual examples of classism, because that's not nearly as "sexy."
I like Brienne of Tarth quite a bit. I greatly dislike Dan and Dave. But again, not really on topic.
But I still don't follow your point. You say you can understand and empathize with, essentially, "this is hurtful." Does that argument no longer stand if someone adds other points along with it?
It sounds like you're suggesting that a lot of this is still part of the male power fantasy that fetishizes female pain devoid of agency as a device to stroke the presumed male player's ego. I think I agree in large part, and I definitely think you're on point that it's not "realism" so much as our Hollywood idea of reality, which is already highly charged with sexualized violence.
Personally I think that any fantasy that exploits real pain that real people are still experiencing simply for cheap thrills, devoid of any introspection, is gross. Do I want to take all the grimdark toys away? No. I can play something else.
Except that for the most part, at the moment, there isn't a lot of "something else."
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
This post is seriously creeping me out.
EdibleKnife
Member
Really? Good god. Alright. Let's start at what I take the most umbrage with. The "don't like it don't play it" or "no one forced you" argument doesn't work. In essence I see where you're coming from. If I don't want to play a game with space marines, I'll give my money to something without space marines. In the end though, these creators are putting out a product out in the world where any Tom, Dick or Harry can buy and play it if they have $60 bucks. Once the material is experienced, it's within the player's rights to critique it if they see fit. If you have every right to say game X had bad controls, everyone else also has the right to say that game X had underwritten female characters. It's all critique and it's what public works will always be subject to.
Second, I have played games in which you have not killed a thing, not seen a scantily clad woman, and not had offensive representations of any particular people and still had fun. Lots of fun. If gaming is unable to develop more experiences that craft fun with well written women or POC, more varied interactions that don't involve violence, or more expansive ideas as a whole, then maybe it does have some growing up to do. Keep in mind this is coming from a guy who loves a variety of experiences. I like shoot-bang, as much as RPGs as much as puzzle games. The issue is that limp and uninteresting creative steamers plague alot of the AAA market. As an African-American, the last game I played with an intriguing person of color in the major role was Walking Dead Season 1. Now am I gonna tear Ubisoft a new one for not making Arno black? No. That doesn't mean I'm fine with the trend either. I might still buy the next game with a white protagonist but I'll buy and praise the next game with a well written black protagonist.
Lastly, this is not about forcing ideologies. It's about clearing the caked-on dust of the status quo from peoples perceptions. You might not think there is an issue with underrepresented, more than likely because you don't fit into the underrepresented group. You don't see the same trends they see. As a male, I see games with a majority of well written male protags (functionally written might be a better phrase) and think "Yeah everything is fine" Whereas a woman will look and see herself underrepresented and even oppressed in the grand scheme. Just because we are members of the modern age doesn't mean we are free from oppression. I still get called out on my race by racists, women still have to deal with oversexualization, homosexuals still have to deal with ridicule. Oppression still exists as much as you'd like to deny it. I enjoy this hobby and it's not wrong to want to see it flourish beyond lame and normalized forms of storytelling and/or gameplay interaction. We are all here and we are all speaking up not because we want games to be less fun. What we want is variety. Nobody here is looking for anything perfect but it's sad that so few in the industry even try.
EDIT: Also about rape/death threats and such as "trolling". A) Is it not kind of insane that those interactions should be so normalized as to not cause disgust? No one should be telling you that they'll be coming to your house to rape and kill your family in any context. B) Why exactly do you expect that everyone should be able to brush it off so easily? Is everyone supposed to react the same way? What about when your address and information make it into the hands of the person making such a threat? Is it still just a goof? C) I think you underestimate how often women get threats about being sexually violated and murdered in comparison to men. That is the go to because it is the worst thing that they believe can be done to a women. It's a sickening amount for anyone to receive. I've seen a friend have to troll through hundreds of comments that were just ad nauseum the same shit about finding her and violating her before making her choke on her blood or some shit. It's fucking vile, dude. And no amount of "LOL just trolling" changes that.
lorebringer
Member
I don't even know why I'm bothering since you won't last long here.
This is exaggerated nonsense and not relevant at all to this thread. Do you know what "doxxed" means? Because it doesn't happen to people who "use the wrong pronoun".
You literally say we should strive for mutual understanding and then put "oppressing" in quotes. Keeping it classy.
Women get overwhelmingly more rape threats than men all the time for nothing and consistently have to deal with and face the very real risk of violence and rape in their day to day lives. But never mind #whataboutmen.
You're right all people who live in the first world should stfu. Maybe you can lead by example. Also, I just want to point out how great this bit is in the context of your first few lines of crying about being treated unfairly.
So the representation of women and men in games is completely fair and even handed? We have just as many games with well rounded female characters as male?
Way to cherry pick your "rebuttal".
How about, I dunno, not having a temper tantrum when people make observations that threaten your self worth which is for some reason bound up in video games?
This is exaggerated nonsense and not relevant at all to this thread. Do you know what "doxxed" means? Because it doesn't happen to people who "use the wrong pronoun".
You literally say we should strive for mutual understanding and then put "oppressing" in quotes. Keeping it classy.
Women get overwhelmingly more rape threats than men all the time for nothing and consistently have to deal with and face the very real risk of violence and rape in their day to day lives. But never mind #whataboutmen.
You're right all people who live in the first world should stfu. Maybe you can lead by example. Also, I just want to point out how great this bit is in the context of your first few lines of crying about being treated unfairly.
So the representation of women and men in games is completely fair and even handed? We have just as many games with well rounded female characters as male?
Way to cherry pick your "rebuttal".
How about, I dunno, not having a temper tantrum when people make observations that threaten your self worth which is for some reason bound up in video games?
Mr_Antimatter
Member
My first character was a female City elf, and I loved the opening. As someone who haas had a family member raped, It really connected on an emotional level. The City elves were in many ways third class citizens. Forced into ghettos, assaulted, murdered, enslaved and raped without consequence.
You see in that opening the consequences of going against power as an oppressed group. Insult the corrupt lords son? You better believe that's a gang raping. Speak out against that? Murdered for not knowing 'your place'.
Was the local lords son evil from our perspective? Yes, obviously. But for him, and seemingly many other humans in that world, this was nothing new, just how things where. The greater world ether doesn't know about the abuse, or just doesn't care.
And what do you get for your act of heroism? A further crackdown on your people, more enslaved, and more killed. 'Culling the animals' as the game's Local Lord put it.
In the video, this is one of the areas where Anita seriously missed the point, by being ignorant of the full context of the scene, and failing to connect what the Elves were experiencing with what many oppressed minorities in this world experience.
So basically,
Police: Hi, what's the emergency?
EVIL SJW: Hi, I'm getting incredibly specific rape and death threats sent with my address and pictures of my house and family. They also know the names of some people I know that I'm not sure how they even got.
Police: Okay, before I take down your information, don't you think you're forgetting something?
EVIL SJW: What?
Police: Men get death threats as well.
EVIL SJW: Oh, sure? I don't really see how that's relev-
Police: GOOD DAY, TROLL *click*
Messofanego
Banned
lol this is great.
She's made quite a bit of progress with her latest video. I couldn't really agree with the first ones as I felt she was simply "venting" instead of showing proper analysis of the subject.
This latest video does a much better job at getting her point across. Though I still feel she's stretching it a bit too far with some of her examples (Hitman / RDR).
Nice video all in all, but I'd still like to see some suggestions on how to improve this. I get the feeling that she'd like to either have violence against women be presented in an extremely methaporical (papo y yo) way or not presented at all; And I dont think thats really the way to go...
This latest video does a much better job at getting her point across. Though I still feel she's stretching it a bit too far with some of her examples (Hitman / RDR).
Nice video all in all, but I'd still like to see some suggestions on how to improve this. I get the feeling that she'd like to either have violence against women be presented in an extremely methaporical (papo y yo) way or not presented at all; And I dont think thats really the way to go...
After seeing THE BLACKLIST, I wonder how long /v/ will be able to remain "on-message" until they drop the pretense and make it a completely transparent hate campaign against anyone who isn't a straight man.
The fact that they list "LGBT pandering" as criteria for shunning makes me think it'll be a few days at most.
The fact that they list "LGBT pandering" as criteria for shunning makes me think it'll be a few days at most.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I thought they were pretty transparent about it from day 1. 4chan is the internet hate machine, combined with a very hipsterist attitude of hating anything popular. It's 14 year olds who hate everything ranting about something that they see as a challenge to their personal tastes.
Oh I agree with most of what you say. And I do not mind someone critiquing a game. Except that most of the critque Anita has is incorrect, or pulled totally out of context in her video's. Making it seem like there is an underlying message of hatred/oppression towards women, which is just not the case. You can spin any story/game to fit your agenda but to me that is just not doing her cause any justice.
Underrepresentation, I can totally agree with, but in the end it's up to the writers to write the story they want. We should be less concerned of the race/gender of the protagonist but more about how the game plays, and the overarching story.
In the end I think that our definition of oppression is a little bit different. Oppression to me is being told what to think, what to write, what to say, what to do in fear of ones life, no free will. When I see people on Social media claim they are opressed, when they pretty much have everything in life, including freedom of speech just rubs me the wrong way. But then again I'm a white, male European, according to most of the feminists I have talked to my opinion is worth less than doggshit anyway.
Are you kidding me? If she really felt threatened, then she would have called the cops already. Instead she made a website where she posts some of the messages she get's on her video's. Yeah, wow she really seems impressed.
CambriaRising
Member
If only. It mostly seems to be collage-age students.
Transparent to us, maybe, but they've got this really cute act going where they pretend they're fighting corruption and censorship instead of just being an internet Don Quixote tilting at evil feminist windmills.
Deliverance
Neo Member
She had to call the police and go to sleep at a friend's house, but yeah, sure, she's evil and she doesn't feel threatened about people telling her that they know where she and HER FUCKING PARENTS live, she's just trolling us xdxd.