I just assume when something stupid like that is said its someone from tumblr that accidentally wandered onto gaf to post that. Kind of like when you have the rare fedora tipper wander in here as well.
Tropes vs Women author Sarkeesian vacates home following online threats
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When some people, including those in this conversation thread, identify the problem as being men (and men, distinct from misogyny), that is why people become uncomfortable with the tone. In theory, this is a conversation about addressing sexism. When in this same conversation there's a long string of people dismissing someone for calling out sexist name-calling because that instance happened to apply to sexism against men, I hope you'll understand further why this would make people uncomfortable. It becomes not an issue of sexism, but of a reactionary attitude where disrespect is warranted because of the initial wrongdoing. I disagree with that justification for additional sexist disrespect. Addressing any issue at the social level by targeting individuals to attack as symbols of that problem, that is wrong. In precisely the same way what's being done to Sarkeesian is wrong.
So yes, when individuals feel they're being included in the accusation of direct, spiteful wrongdoing in a case like the threats against Sarkeesian, particularly when the first words out of so many people is outwardly and boldly rejecting that behavior as monstrous, you will see people say "Don't lump us in with abusers!"
My shit would be right where I left it, but I would be quite upset and angry about it. Why do you ask?
Damerman
Member
you know, this goes back to an article that i read regarding internet anonymity(at least full) and how it is impractical for the development of the human race. I forget where but it was a social studies dissertation at some school. at some point, if what you are saying is true, liability on the internet is going to become more prevalent... and to be honest i welcome it with open arms.
The "vocal and abrasive minority" doesn't hold up here.
If i go see a movie and there is one dude being a "vocal" minority, it's still ruining the experience for everyone else.
I'm not sticking up for anybody. I'm not a man, either.
I just want this discussion to go more smoothly without contentless drive-bys mucking up any shred of legitimate discourse we could have here. If you have something to contribute to the discussion, by all means do so, but if it's just continual clarifications that men are the issue here, then don't bother.
I still can't tell if SJW is supposed to be a positive label or a negative one.
Anyone who uses such a pretentious-sounding title would probably someone I would want to avoid.
I don't necessarily agree with 100% of the points Anita makes in her videos, but I do find them intriguing and also informative (though also very subjective given some of the game footage). THAT BEING SAID: They are opinion pieces. She's a media critic. Media critics are always going to have to expect some sort of backlash directed at them for making their opinions the subject of public consumption.. HOWEVER, it goes without saying that the 'backlash' Anita is experiencing here is above and beyond what a media critic should reasonably expect from their naysayers. I think it's absolutely deplorable, digusting and completely unwarranted. I hope whoever is behind it is dealt with swiftly.
EDIT: Also, side note: that Adam Baldwin stuff blew my mind as well. What a douche he turned out to be.
EDIT: Also, side note: that Adam Baldwin stuff blew my mind as well. What a douche he turned out to be.
I ask because some people in the audience here are quick to detach themselves from the severity of the debate.
Justifying behavior like that because people have no personal affinity with Anita seems easy for some, while i am curious to see how hard it would be if this happened close to home.
pants
Member
It's probably a dead end trying to get gaming to be more inclusive by targeting this message at the audience though. If you have more games being made for all groups, the audience will likely expand and other types will become more profitable on things that aren't mobiles. It has to start with the makers imo.
Reading certain words, among many things, can be conditioned elicitors.
Are you trying to deny this?
EDIT: read page 247
http://books.google.com/books?id=5Z...e&q=can words be conditioned elicitor&f=false
It always felt like a condescending term to me. As if people who try to speak out against foolishness are "trying too hard."
It's a pejorative term used by people who don't deserve to be taken seriously.
Saddly, an extreme example of Anita's Irony : Online discussion of sexism or misogyny quickly results in disproportionate displays of sexism and misogyny.
https://twitter.com/coleott/status/504481341384441856
https://twitter.com/coleott/status/504481341384441856
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Social Justice Warrior is an negative term that's been propagated as a means to sarcastically diminish people who publicly approve of and argue for the idea that more people should like the things we like, and that the things we like maybe shouldn't be so inherently dismissive and dehumanizing to people who don't look like us.
Us in that instance usually being being male enthusiasts of any given hobby.
Anton Sugar
Member
I don't see how any of this results in an accusation that all men hate women or become wife-beaters. You're creating arguments where there are none that, frankly, sound like an attempt to villify and discredit her argument.
What she is saying is that, whether you know it or not, you are likely affected by misogynist and sexist representations of women. This is NOT the same as saying that you hate all women or beat them. Yes, of course, there are assholes on the extreme but far more likely is "casual sexism/misogyny", like thinking there is a way that women "should" look, that barely dressed women are "strong female characters" because they can throw a punch, that women who have a lot of sex are evil, etc.
I agree 100%. Saying that the issue is with men is not equal to a blanket statement of "every single man is the problem".
KojiKnight
Member
Male, married, have two daughters. Of course this is frustrating, of course there are individuals who are just scummy, but I also don't buy that ours is a rape culture, and neither does my wife. Just our opinions mind you.
As I've said before, the things that happened in OP's post are more a sign of people with mental issues banding together and striking out, not a sign that our society is inherently designed to harm women.
scoobidoo112
Member
Wait, so anonymous Twitter trolls are now representative of the entirety of the tech community? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate what people are doing to miss Sarkeesian, but is that really "proof" that the tech community as a whole hates / despises women? Am I alone in having doubts that anyone (regardless of gender) will be harassed by internet trolls should you open your mouth about anything?
- I know people that openly speak about being Atheist and receive death threats for doing so from Christians, does that mean the entirety of Christianity hates Atheists?
- I've witnessed people, both men and women, speaking up about being raped, who then receive death threats on the internet, does that mean the entirety of (males on) the internet condones rape?
- I've seen both men and women speak up about depression on the internet who then receive endless comments of people telling them to go kill themselves, does that mean the entirely of society feels that way?
- That guy who's tweet was just quoted, Thunderfoot, he himself got death threats (both online and offline) and had people try to ruin his scientific career for speaking about atheism and feminism, does that mean the whole internet thinks that is okay?
- I've seen endless tweets by feminists a while ago, making fun of a news story where a women cut off her boyfriends penis, thinking it was absolutely hilarious and deserved, does that mean all feminists think that is okay?
Netherscourge
Banned
I honestly believe it's the anonymity of the internet that gives these "fringe" people empowerment to go full-crazy.
It's kinda like alcohol. It doesn't make you say things you don't believe. It makes it easier for you to say things you normally wouldn't admit to anyone. But rest assured - they DO BELIEVE/WANT THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN.
That's why it's so scary. These people REALLY DO THINK THESE THINGS. It's not trolling or just trying to tick people off - there are people in this world who really do think these things. They're called sociopaths. And the anonymity of the internet makes it easier for them to express their sick inner perversions. In some cases, just expressing their perversions is excitement enough for them. But there are always the ones who take it a step further and are criminally dangerous.
I think we have seen more death threats on twitter, then we have seen death threats in any socially(Used by even the casual internet user) popular website. It's like facebook in terms of it's popularity, but I swear there have been a huge jump in death threats to people, since its birth. Is it the 140 characters? Seriously, why is twitter so popular to do death threats? I'm going to assume it is because everyone uses it anymore(a lot) so it is easier for the mentally ill to get access to their obsessions. I understand why twitter is so popular(promotion) but I just wish it wasnt used so much, so much shit happens there, I think, that wouldnt be as prevalent with it.
We should probably make an RPG out of this to bring it to a level many on the outside looking in will understand: social Justice Warrior, White Knight...Egalitarian Mage?
Because it's a public forum w/ anonymity, you're seeing them. Unlike e-mail/snail mail in the past, which are not public areas.
DoktorEvil
Banned
A movie is a shared experience and the theater is the worst place to voice a grievance. Your example doesn't hold weight.
Video games can be both shared experiences and intimate at different times.
ebullientprism
Member
I havent been keeping tabs on this, how is Adam Baldwin involved in this? 
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's linked to the ingrained idea that wanting to be better than you are is inherently pretentious. Basically any title that can be assigned that carries with it a sense of nobility is bullshit, because nobility itself is a pretentious, bullshit concept. You're not noble because I'm not noble, and attempting to do something nice and good for other people is pretentious as fuck, so you will be mocked for not staying in your lane.
However, if you stick to the speed limit, your general outward lack of caring will be recognized and you'll be rewarded for your publicized displays of apathy (which is oxymoronic, but anyone calling you on that is being pretentious, so you're safe)
Wait, so anonymous Twitter trolls are now representative of the entirety of the tech community? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate what people are doing to miss Sarkeesian, but is that really "proof" that the tech community as a whole hates / despises women? Am I alone in having doubts that anyone (regardless of gender) will be harassed by internet trolls should you open your mouth about anything?
Just because it happens all the time to everyone, doesn't mean that the solution is to "deal with it".
abaldwin360
Neo Member
These anti-SJWs don't like the status-quo being shaken up. This is such a huge threat to them (somehow) that they feel the only solution is to silence using harassment and threats.
In their eyes she's out of line and needs "corrected".
And ironicaly those "gamers" who see knight and warrior as an insult are insulting because they are afraid of games that you don't play as a knight or a warrior
scoobidoo112
Member
I never said that. I was just asking a question. We can't fix the problem until we understand the cause and that is what I am trying to figure out.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
This is so good.
Delusibeta
Banned
Regardless of your views on Anita's work (Besada's banned me enough times over mine :v ), I think everyone would agree that this is absolutely horrible and totally unacceptable.
The problem is that I don't think there is a solution. After all, it only takes one person to doxx someone, and it's quite easy for said person to take that information and make several sockpuppet Twitter accounts to make threats using said information. It's all a demonstration of the effects a lack of accountability on the internet has on people.
I honestly do think fixing that lack of accountability would go some way to preventing this, but I'm not sure how to do that without major government intervention. Facebook has proven that the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory doesn't need anonymity, and short of locking down registration and linking accounts to some government run ID scheme (there's that major government intervention) it's still very easy to make fake sockpuppet accounts. I suppose you've got stuff like NeoGAF's e-mail restrictions and waitlist, or Something Awful's $10 fee, but I'm not convinced that sort of thing would work in the world of Twitter/Facebook esque social media.
It's a tough nut to crack, for sure.
The problem is that I don't think there is a solution. After all, it only takes one person to doxx someone, and it's quite easy for said person to take that information and make several sockpuppet Twitter accounts to make threats using said information. It's all a demonstration of the effects a lack of accountability on the internet has on people.
I honestly do think fixing that lack of accountability would go some way to preventing this, but I'm not sure how to do that without major government intervention. Facebook has proven that the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory doesn't need anonymity, and short of locking down registration and linking accounts to some government run ID scheme (there's that major government intervention) it's still very easy to make fake sockpuppet accounts. I suppose you've got stuff like NeoGAF's e-mail restrictions and waitlist, or Something Awful's $10 fee, but I'm not convinced that sort of thing would work in the world of Twitter/Facebook esque social media.
It's a tough nut to crack, for sure.
DrROBschiz
Member
This is what I have been saying
The thing troubling me is that might be what people have to do. I really can't conceivably think of many great actual solutions
She contacted authorities and the offender would face charges if caught. Communities on the net seem more absorbed with trying to figure out whether its a staged stunt than uncovering the actual offender and reporting it.
Its really sobering and sad
Steve Youngblood
Member
Right. But that's because this isn't our (i.e. you and me) first rodeo. We understand these conversations. We don't need the #NotAllMen clarification because we are already inundated with how these conversations go. There's a lot of situations where I might read a post that calls for more fairness across the board as needless #NotAllMen white noise, but Aeana (a female) was appealing as a moderator in an aim to keep the conversation going, and not at all to make men the victim here.
And I agree with her observation. Yes, many of us don't need it spelled out that not all men are terrible. But not everyone is terribly familiar with this topic. And I understand and agree with the point that calling out "men" can seem unnecessarily adversarial. She's not muddying the waters with talks about how men face problems too, she's just noting that some (i.e. not you and not me) may not react favorably to that. These conversations tend to go poorly enough as it is that both sides can benefit from taking some care to not unnecessarily throw more fuel on the fire.
That's a shallow incorrect reading of the situation and offensive to those of us with MH issues who manage to go through life without harassing people online.
notworksafe
Member
not to mention they are pretty much always the coolest dudes in my favorite animes
Aaronrules380
Member
In the short term, sure it might be the only answer that works. But long term efforts like education and outreach could eventually lead somewhere
People with mental issues aren't just born into the world slinging death threats at people who make youtube videos. I think it's a bit insulting how you're trying to pin all of this on them, as well as insulting to the plenty of people with mental issues who don't act in this manner.
KojiKnight
Member
Because the average person is fully capable of uncovering a random twitter user and reporting them to police. This event has stirred up conversation, and while some parts of the conversation aren't exactly pleasant it IS overall positive that the conversations are taking place.
DrROBschiz
Member
Yeah its crazy
Even when you take anonymity out of the equation people will still go to these extremes as pointed out in your Facebook example
Is there any data covering convictions related to abuse and death threats over facebook? I got to imagine its a much easier place to enforce this kind of behavior despite its size.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Saddly, an extreme example of Anita's Irony : Online discussion of sexism or misogyny quickly results in disproportionate displays of sexism and misogyny.
https://twitter.com/coleott/status/504481341384441856
Stealing this for race threads.
Wait, so anonymous Twitter trolls are now representative of the entirety of the tech community? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate what people are doing to miss Sarkeesian, but is that really "proof" that the tech community as a whole hates / despises women? Am I alone in having doubts that anyone (regardless of gender) will be harassed by internet trolls should you open your mouth about anything?
I'm not trying to demean how terrible it is what miss Sarkeesian is going through, but I just honestly want to ask if this is a case of "open your mouth about anything online and you will get threats" or if this is actually indicative of something more. I would just like to hear what people think so I can clear up my own thoughts about this issue, as I currently don't really know what to think. There is way too much noise going on for me to decide whether or not this is all just people being their usual pleasant selves (when anonymous online) or if this is actually representative of an anti-women attitude in the tech-industry as a whole.
- I know people that openly speak about being Atheist and receive death threats for doing so from Christians, does that mean the entirety of Christianity hates Atheists?
- I've witnessed people, both men and women, speaking up about being raped, who then receive death threats on the internet, does that mean the entirety of (males on) the internet condones rape?
- I've seen both men and women speak up about depression on the internet who then receive endless comments of people telling them to go kill themselves, does that mean the entirely of society feels that way?
- That guy who's tweet was just quoted, Thunderfoot, he himself got death threats (both online and offline) and had people try to ruin his scientific career for speaking about atheism and feminism, does that mean the whole internet thinks that is okay?
- I've seen endless tweets by feminists a while ago, making fun of a news story where a women cut off her boyfriends penis, thinking it was absolutely hilarious and deserved, does that mean all feminists think that is okay?
The #NotAllMen argument...
Seriously, though. Yes, it is representative of anti-woman attitude in the tech-industry as a whole.
Here is another example about Women in Science.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Now is when /v/ and reddit should come and condemn the actions unanimously, not because some of their members are involved in this (probably they are, but maybe not, we don't know) and neither because to save face and avoid getting even more hated for this. But because this is beyond madness and it's going out of hand.
But they probably will try to paint it as some kind of conspiracy, indirectly supporting and shielding this guys for doing such barbarities.
But they probably will try to paint it as some kind of conspiracy, indirectly supporting and shielding this guys for doing such barbarities.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I remember the days when if you didn't like a person or didn't like what that person had to say, you would either agree to disagree or just ignore them altogether? What happened to those days? Probably a figment of my imagination. Now people just harass or threaten. How did it escalate so quickly? I'm sad now. =(
I find merit in what Anita does and what she says, even if I don't agree with some of the methods used to argue some of the points. But...to threaten her? Man... very little empathy to go around in this world anymore. =(
I find merit in what Anita does and what she says, even if I don't agree with some of the methods used to argue some of the points. But...to threaten her? Man... very little empathy to go around in this world anymore. =(
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