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[GillianSeed79]

Honestly, I don't think some of the people who get riled up even know precisely why they're so upset by her and the videos. That might be part of why they lash out in such ridiculous fashion, and why they rarely engage in discussion on the actual content of the videos.

It's like the forwarded emails that some of my dad's more conservative old friends have been sending to him since the Ferguson protests started. They all talk overtly about supporting the police, with only the most oblique references to what really scares/angers them -- because I'm not sure they fully understand it themselves.

I think you hit part of it on the head. I think it's comparable to what is happening politically and demographically in the country. Some people - see people like white male Tea Party supporters - are so scared shitless of a majority-minority country and the thought of losing their historically privileged status that they feel the need to double down on "protecting" America or go on vaguely racist screeds without being overtly racist.

With the MRA gaming community, I think they are scared shitless of women representing a larger majority of gaming consumers and companies catering to broader demographics. I think they believe that publishers will no longer exclusively cater to them and will "censor their" games when in reality we will just see a broader spectrum of games for a boarder audience and demographics.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Uh, yes it is. The MRM is akin to feminism in its scope. You have the irrational hatred on one side, and the other side of the spectrum you have those who are interested in equality, but decided to take up something to voice certain men's issues (suicide or workplace deaths for instance) since Feminism wasn't interested in pursuing them.

That's really not true, nor something you could ever prove. There are plenty of people who use that label to mean they want absolute gender equality.

The idea that feminists/feminism isn't interested in gender equality is laughably false. I have yet to find an MRA movement that doesn't have roots in anti-feminism or misogyny. Even the "better" ones have ties to questionable organizations.

 

[Ziffles]

There are plenty of people who use that label to mean they want absolute gender equality.

Name one.

Why don't they just call themselves feminists then?

 

[udivision]

Didn't see anyone react to this post a few pages back, so I thought I'd quote it here. I think SkyOdin is on point. We can blame and/or dismiss any group we like, but I think we all need to do some introspection and realize that this problem is a lot bigger than "evil people" or "a vocal minority."

I was going to respond to that post to, but I never got around to it.

The problem with treating the Internet as a society is that it is huge, can encapsulate people from literally every society, and is fractured into groups upon groups of people with different ideas and beliefs.

Extracting some semblance of a society (with norms/values/etc...) without any way to actually enforce/teach a set of norms is kind of... hard. There's no homogeneity to facilitate such a process either. Maybe it's not the same as saying "Why can't the entire world get along?", but it might be one of the closets things.

 

[dubq]

Does such a place exist where discussion can continue without hostility? Perhaps now is bad timing, but she can't just hide herself from her audience indefinitely if she's truly passionate about her message.

There needs to be a safer outlet.

Perhaps you can give her a few days.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't follow the news on this subject, but it really surprises me how much hate this woman gets. Is there any reason for that? Does she have more visibility than other women or something?

I mean, I get some people might not like what she says, but to hate her that much makes no sense. Do all women get harassed on the internet? Is she amount of harassment proportional to the target's visibility? I don't get it.

Visibility doesn't really matter on a large scale. Devolution posts her thoughts about sexism, and this happens to her all the time on GAF, YouTube comments, related subreddits, Twitter, etc:

This is a woman who just posts on this gaming forum. Anita broadcasts to millions. I can't imagine what's happening to her every moment of every day.

 

[Phii]

Stuff like these amazes me every time, but I guess it's because I have would never even get the idea to threaten someone.

I would feel horrible to scare someone, this got me sad.

 

[Fehyd]

I'm a feminist, and I'm very interested in addressing cultural sexism for any gender group. I'm not alone in that intent. I think it's accurate to say that in general, self-identified Men's Rights Activists tend to be reactionary against feminism more than they're actually a novel response to social concerns.

Its really a discussion for another thread, but keep in-mind how young the MRM is, its only natural to hear some of the more radical elements. The most radical feminists often called for the all-out elimination or castration of men, and even violence against men because they are men, but I would never hold that sort of view towards all feminists.

 

[Terrell]

Uh, yes it is. The MRM is akin to feminism in its scope. You have the irrational hatred on one side, and the other side of the spectrum you have those who are interested in equality, but decided to take up something to voice certain men's issues (suicide or workplace deaths for instance) since Feminism wasn't interested in pursuing them.

The moment a movement is based on the idea that another group isn't addressing topics you want instead of just presenting the topic as a point of concern irrespective of any other group, it's not a movement anymore, it's a witchhunt and a blame game.

 

[RMI]

Why don't they just call themselves feminists then?

bingo.

 

[ishibear]

Why are people so afraid to identify as feminist? Why is feminism given such a bad rap when it's done more good for people than bad?

Feminism benefits everyone. Men, women and children. How can so many possibly find the idea behind it repulsive?

 

[Gestault]

Does such a place exist where discussion can continue without hostility? Perhaps now is bad timing, but she can't just hide herself from her audience indefinitely if she's truly passionate about her message.

There needs to be a safer outlet.

I'm no longer following you. She produces content, released on Youtube. Youtube is a platform that allows linking and referencing content in a way that makes responding very easy. Anyone with internet access can produce that reactive content. She has made no statement that she's ceasing to produce content. You don't need to personally converse with someone to discuss a topic about their work. You're in one such community for discussion right now.

 

[dubq]

Why don't they just call themselves feminists then?

<3

 

[Fersis]

It's a warning to people who may become triggered/have a negative reaction to the depictions within what's being posted such as threats of physical violence, rape, death etc.

Found this online:

If you said "Trigger Warning: Rape", for example, it would mean it's a warning to people who have experienced rape that they might not want to read something, because it might be hard to read or a "trigger" for bad memories, etc.

It was a term to help warn people, who suffer PTSD, about content that might potentially trigger them. However, now it's used by Tumblr people, 99% of whom don't have PTSD, who think they actually get "triggered" by offensive content. It's laughable when anyone uses it seriously when a simple "content warning" serves the exact same purpose without devaluing the meaning behind the word "trigger."

Did you read this (sexual violence trigger warning)? https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160

Do you honestly think she is lying about it or made that Twitter account herself?


My limited understanding is that some people who have experienced say, sexual violence, may have panic attacks/severe reactions if they read someone making graphic sexual threats as in the link above.

Thanks for the info guys! Never read that phrase before.

 

[scoobidoo112]

A lot of times, I really do try and be diplomatic and open to conversation. And while I am happy to concede that there are egalitarians out there who resent that feminism may be overly concerned with issues facing women to the detriment of real issues men face, I honestly have zero problems throwing most MRAs under the bus. Yes, there are issues men face that deserve attention. Perhaps not all feminists are concerned with those issues. But that's as far as I will go. For the most part, though, people who openly identify as MRAs are largely deserving of nothing but ridicule. I will happily stand behind that statement.

I am a supporter of not throwing anyone under the bus and engaging people in rational discussions. I don't associate with any movement (although humanism comes pretty close) but I'm willing to talk to anyone, regardless of what label they apply to themselves. Both feminists and MRAs address serious issues (one more than the other) and if people actually came together, you know, to fight for equality for all, things would go a lot faster. In my humble opinion of course.

Why don't they just call themselves feminists then?

Why not Humanists or Egalitarians? Why does it matter what label people apply?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I am a supporter of not throwing anyone under the bus and engaging people in rational discussions. I don't associate with any movement (although humanism comes pretty close) but I'm willing to talk to anyone, regardless of what label they apply to themselves. Both feminists and MRAs address serious issues (one more than the other) and if people actually came together, you know, to fight for equality for all, things would go a lot faster. In my humble opinion of course.

My personal stance is that I'm in favor of engaging in productive conversation with people who participate in good faith. That's basically the long and the short of it.

 

[Toxi]

Does such a place exist where discussion can continue without hostility? Perhaps now is bad timing, but she can't just hide herself from her audience indefinitely if she's truly passionate about her message.

There needs to be a safer outlet.

She's going to talk to people when she wants to talk.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Besides, if you really want to support a group that has faced more discrimination and inequality in general then you should support black Americans...

This is what intersectional feminism, the most common form of feminism today, is all about.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Sigh

 

[scoobidoo112]

My personal stance is that I'm in favor of engaging in productive conversation with people who participate in good faith. That's basically the long and the short of it.

Seems like a good principle to go by.

 

[Vlade]

I am a supporter of not throwing anyone under the bus and engaging people in rational discussions. I don't associate with any movement (although humanism comes pretty close) but I'm willing to talk to anyone, regardless of what label they apply to themselves. Both feminists and MRAs address serious issues (one more than the other) and if people actually came together, you know, to fight for equality for all, things would go a lot faster. In my humble opinion of course.

It seems odd now to claim that people who identify themselves as MRA do something besides follow SPECIFIC PEOPLE they think are feminists around and tell them they are wrong, when I have never heard of them pointing to a social state. Even their mention in this thread is more coattailing/bullying. There is no issue here for them to discuss, yet here we are.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Why not Humanists or Egalitarians? Why does it matter what label people apply?

Well, as it seems like men are the ones greatly concerned with what labels are applied to both themselves and others when it comes to movements seeking to dismantle institutional oppression, can you understand why there would be great loads of skepticism about what they're actually wanting?

 

[Cymbal Head]

Does such a place exist where discussion can continue without hostility? Perhaps now is bad timing, but she can't just hide herself from her audience indefinitely if she's truly passionate about her message.

There needs to be a safer outlet.

She gives talks and shows up at conferences and stuff. I can't imagine she's very interested in engaging online, given that as soon as she cracks the door open she's engulfed in a deluge of shit.

That said, there are plenty of people on GAF (among other places) who would be happy to have these discussions with you.

 

[Anton Sugar]

My personal stance is that I'm in favor of engaging in productive conversation with people who participate in good faith. That's basically the long and the short of it.

Bolded is why I can't take Thunderf00t seriously.

In "Feminism poisons everything", he states that Anita's position of "sexism/misogyny in video games affects how we view and value women in the real world" is the equivalent of this:

It's such a blatant misunderstanding and twisting of her statement/perspective that I cannot believe he is arguing rationally and in good faith.

 

[Twilight Princess]

No one deserves threats for making videos, but she is constantly going out of her way to misrepresent games to appear more sexist than they actually are and all of you are just eating up her narrative. I would be really glad if I never had to hear about her or her victim complex ever again.

"She doesn't deserve threats but she really does! And I'll be glad if she's gone forever!" Pretty sutble tho.

 

[ishibear]

Why not Humanists or Egalitarians? Why does it matter what label people apply?

Well, what's wrong with identifying as a feminist?

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm sorry for participating in this derail, but a quick trip to reddit.com/r/mensrights should eliminate any idea that such a group is for equality in any way.

Are white rights movements for equality too?

One of the base problems with MRAs is that they never complain about oppression on them by males (which is like, constant, since men represent most positions of power and therefore have more ability to abuse and oppress people), and yet there are numerous feminists who will take to task women in power who do wrong, and numerous feminist subgroups who will take other feminists to task. That's why MRAs feel like a reactionary group, because they're there to prove all of the bad things that women do.

 

[scoobidoo112]

This is what intersectional feminism, the most common form of feminism today, is all about.

Ah, I was unaware of this. Thanks, I'll do some reading.

It seems odd now to claim that people who identify themselves as MRA do something besides follow SPECIFIC PEOPLE they think are feminists around and tell them they are wrong, when I have never heard of them pointing to a social state. Even their mention in this thread is more coattailing/bullying. There is no issue here for them to discuss, yet here we are.

Movements are complicated, diverse and controversial. That is all I'll say.

 

[NoirVisage]

This is what intersectional feminism, the most common form of feminism today, is all about.

Oh wow, thanks for that laugh.

 

[Trey]

Why are people so afraid to identify as feminist? Why is feminism given such a bad rap when it's done more good for people than bad?

Feminism benefits everyone. Men, women and children. How can so many possibly find the idea behind it repulsive?

I don't like the term either but I don't let it get in the way of the principles the term stands for, which I agree with considerably.

 

[dubq]

I am a supporter of not throwing anyone under the bus and engaging people in rational discussions. I don't associate with any movement (although humanism comes pretty close) but I'm willing to talk to anyone, regardless of what label they apply to themselves. Both feminists and MRAs address serious issues (one more than the other) and if people actually came together, you know, to fight for equality for all, things would go a lot faster. In my humble opinion of course.

Why not Humanists or Egalitarians? Why does it matter what label people apply?

Again, I think you're missing the point that there is a difference between those who advocate for legitimate causes such as male rape victims, etc, and the deluge of shitheels who label themselves MRA's (which is what I am talking about) simply to troll any feminist (cause or person, perceived or otherwise) that they cross paths with. See also: PUAs, etc.

 

[RMI]

Besides, if you really want to support a group that has faced more discrimination and inequality in general then you should support black Americans...

we're not talking about race here. we're talking about men and women, feminists and MRAs. Any demographic you pick, somebody will always be able to point to a more disadvantaged group until we're eventually talking about starving people on the other side of the world being murdered by some corrupt regime.

This is a common tactic that people use when telling women that it could be much worse, and that their problems are not real problems compared to group X, Y, or Z. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not doing that.

 

[scoobidoo112]

Well, what's wrong with identifying as a feminist?

Nothing. I don't care what anyone labels themselves. Like I said, why does it matter how people label themselves if they all want "equality for all"?

The only downside I could possible imagine is the likelihood of being compared to specific feminist representatives or a specific branch of feminism, causing people to have preconceived notions.

 

[ishibear]

One of the base problems with MRAs is that they never complain about oppression on them by males (which is like, constant, since men represent most positions of power and therefore have more ability to abuse and oppress people), and yet there are numerous feminists who will take to task women in power who do wrong, and numerous feminist subgroups who will take other feminists to task. That's why MRAs feel like a reactionary group, because they're there to prove all of the bad things that women do.

Well said.

MRA would rather talk about how feminism rejects minority women, but they ignore minorities altogether. At least feminists will tackle this issue and try to work on it. MRA is so busy trying to defeat the feminism movement, they forget to cover their own failures and show their true colors.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Oh wow, thanks for that laugh.

What is there to laugh about?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Oh wow, thanks for that laugh.

?

 

[Anfang]

The idea that feminists/feminism isn't interested in gender equality is laughably false. I have yet to find an MRA movement that doesn't have roots in anti-feminism or misogyny. Even the "better" ones have ties to questionable organizations.

https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

Have fun.

 

[Toxi]

https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

Have fun.

Oh god, did you seriously link that?

 

[Gestault]

Bolded is why I can't take Thunderf00t seriously.

In "Feminism poisons everything", he states that Anita's position of "sexism/misogyny in video games affects how we view and value women in the real world" is the equivalent of this:

It's such a blatant misunderstanding and twisting of her statement/perspective that I cannot believe he is arguing rationally and in good faith.

I agree, but she communicated her points in the video he was responding to terribly. His wasn't a totally unreasonable reading of it; she really did make it sound like she was talking about specific, individual behavior resulting from playing games. She's obviously gotten better over time at communicating the underlying point about cultural influences.

 

[LiK]

Joss Whedon is pretty cool.

 

[Anfang]

Oh god, did you seriously link that?

Straughan is level headed, so yea I did sir.

 

[andymcc]

Straughan is level headed.

This thread keeps on delivering. Holy shit.

 

[Trey]

Bolded is why I can't take Thunderf00t seriously.

In "Feminism poisons everything", he states that Anita's position of "sexism/misogyny in video games affects how we view and value women in the real world" is the equivalent of this:

It's such a blatant misunderstanding and twisting of her statement/perspective that I cannot believe he is arguing rationally and in good faith.

He's not. Thunderf00t has built his entire anti-feminist platform on specious arguments and condescension.

 

[Buzzman]

Straughan is level headed, so yea I did sir.

I like the part where she links to Men's rights Edmonton, the group that put up the offensive "Don't be that girl" posters

 

[NoirVisage]

What is there to laugh about?

the idea that it is the most common and that the issues/concerns of african americans or other races are actually given equal footing to other feminist issues. The feed back i get from a lot of sistas/ black females is discouraging, that word for now is just an ideal for them.

 

[SEGIII]

I'm no longer following you. She produces content, released on Youtube. Youtube is a platform that allows linking and referencing content in a way that would fit that exact role. Anyone with internet access can produce that reactive content. She has made no statement that she's ceasing to produce content. You don't need to personally converse with someone to discuss a topic about their work. You're in one such community for discussion right now.

When the whole situation settles down and her safety is not in jeopardy, I'm just hoping for a "Discuss with the author " type setting instead of a strictly "Discusses amongst yourselves" setting. I hope that makes more sense.

 

[Fehyd]

Well, what's wrong with identifying as a feminist?

Well, some people have had some very bad experiences with traditional self-styled feminists.

For instance, at the University of Toronto a talk on Men's Suicide was picketed by feminists on campus. They blocked the entrances and exits, and verbally harassed anyone trying to enter. When Security made them forcibly vacate around the entrances, they went inside to shout out and interrupt the talk before pulling the fire alarm.

Now obviously these people don't speak for all of feminism, but its a reason that many men (and women) don't identify themselves as feminist.

If anyone would like to continue discussion I'm definitely willing to talk via PM. I don't want to muck up the thread any more than it already has with MRM talk.

 

[EmiPrime]

MRAs are like the guys who think there should be a 'Straight Pride' and a 'White History Month'. Feminism already addresses male concerns, particularly those who don't conform to stereotypical male gender roles, professions, aspirations, emotions etc.

 

[Stet]

https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

Have fun.

Does it activate Godwin's law to invoke a word that's associated with a Nazi-based occupation but has made it into the dictionary as a general term?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

the idea that it is the most common and that the issues/concerns of african americans or other races are actually given equal footing to other feminist issues. The feed back i get from a lot of sistas/ black females is discouraging, that word for now is just an ideal for them.

Yeah, I feel you. It was probably a bit optimistic on my part because of who I personally choose to associate with, because I can definitely recognize just how shitty it really is out there even with people who claim to be intersectional.