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[Anfang]

Well, some people have had some very bad experiences with traditional self-styled feminists.

For instance, at the University of Toronto a talk on Men's Suicide was picketed by feminists on campus. They blocked the entrances and exits, and verbally harassed anyone trying to enter. When Security made them forcibly vacate around the entrances, they went inside to shout out and interrupt the talk before pulling the fire alarm.

Now obviously these people don't speak for all of feminism, but its a reason that many men (and women) don't identify themselves as feminist.

If anyone would like to continue discussion I'm definitely willing to talk via PM. I don't want to muck up the thread any more than it already has with MRM talk.

Isnt that the dude who has the token rape stance or w/e. Not hard to see why they picketed.

 

[Gestault]

When the whole situation settles down and her safety is not in jeopardy, I'm just hoping for a "Discuss with the author " type setting instead of a strictly "Discusses amongst yourselves" setting. I hope that makes more sense.

She can choose to engage as much or as little as she cares to, but she constantly interacts with the community over social media. Several comments here already explained that Twitter is the best way to get in touch. As it was, she was very accessible. I've personally exchanged a handful of PMs with her. There's no unnatural barrier.

 

[Anton Sugar]

https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

Have fun.

You're trying to tell me that Straughan is not anti-feminist?

Well, some people have had some very bad experiences with traditional self-styled feminists.

For instance, at the University of Toronto a talk on Men's Suicide was picketed by feminists on campus. They blocked the entrances and exits, and verbally harassed anyone trying to enter. When Security made them forcibly vacate around the entrances, they went inside to shout out and interrupt the talk before pulling the fire alarm.

Now obviously these people don't speak for all of feminism, but its a reason that many men (and women) don't identify themselves as feminist.

If anyone would like to continue discussion I'm definitely willing to talk via PM. I don't want to muck up the thread any more than it already has with MRM talk.

Is that the MRA-organized meeting/interruption that everyone tries to use as the "feminists are crazy" card?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Well, some people have had some very bad experiences with traditional self-styled feminists.

For instance, at the University of Toronto a talk on Men's Suicide was picketed by feminists on campus. They blocked the entrances and exits, and verbally harassed anyone trying to enter. When Security made them forcibly vacate around the entrances, they went inside to shout out and interrupt the talk before pulling the fire alarm.

Now obviously these people don't speak for all of feminism, but its a reason that many men (and women) don't identify themselves as feminist.

If anyone would like to continue discussion I'm definitely willing to talk via PM. I don't want to muck up the thread any more than it already has with MRM talk.

You're misrepresenting what that protest was actually about:

http://www.vice.com/read/we-went-to-a-mens-rights-lecture-in-toronto

 

[JackAubrey]

This is disgusting, honestly.

I watch the Anita videos when they come out, but I avoid any and all discussion about them because I don't think I can take it. Even here on Gaf, it gets bad.

I'm the same. I am surprised I've even made two posts in this thread (including this one) heck I'm even surprised I read it.

So many gamers completely miss the point, or are so set on defending lazy offensive shit in games, that games forums seem like the worst place to discuss the issue. The real discussion is out there - away from the games ghettoes.

I'm not sure what people are so threatened by - women being treated with respect, much better games. What's not to like? Why is that threatening?

 

[scoobidoo112]

we're not talking about race here. we're talking about men and women, feminists and MRAs. Any demographic you pick, somebody will always be able to point to a more disadvantaged group until we're eventually talking about starving people on the other side of the world being murdered by some corrupt regime.

This is a common tactic that people use when telling women that it could be much worse, and that their problems are not real problems compared to group X, Y, or Z. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not doing that.

Like I said before, I belong to no "group" and simply stand for "equality for all". I think men, women, LGBT's and minorities all face legitimate issues that should all be addressed and that inequality is in no way a competition between the most hurt/oppressed.

Besides, my comment preceded with:

If one was actually interested in equality one would support and identify with a group that stands for equality. Dot.

The line after that (that you quoted) wasn't meant as an excuse of "women don't have it that bad compared to X" at all. I was just pointing out a group of people that has been heavily discriminated against that could also serve as the center-point representation for equality.

In the end my point was that one should stand for equality for everyone and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

 

[ishibear]

I don't like the term either but I don't let it get in the way of the principles the term stands for, which I agree with considerably.

Can I ask why? I have seen this before but never had an opportunity to ask why some guys say this.

Nothing. I don't care what anyone labels themselves. Like I said, why does it matter how people label themselves if they all want "equality for all"?

The only downside I could possible imagine is the likelihood of being compared to specific feminist representatives or a specific branch of feminism, causing people to have preconceived notions.

Oh okay, I think I follow you. But the negative feminist idea is solely of one where we hate men or want to change everything.

I used to be against feminism because I was certain that the movement judged women who didn't do what feminism said was best, and I felt a woman deserved a choice in life and worried feminism was doing exactly what MRA were, but just with women instead. I was totally wrong.

The one thing I believed in most was exactly what feminism was, giving women an opportunity to choose our own path, and remove the roadblocks we were forced to face.

I've been a proud feminist ever since.

 

[stufte]

MRAs are like the guys who think there should be a 'Straight Pride' and a 'White History Month'. Feminism already addresses male concerns, particularly those who don't conform to stereotypical male gender roles, professions, aspirations, emotions etc.

I agree that feminism covers a lot of bases and support true equality, but feminism doesn't address family law issues for me like it should. Nor does it work on male rape awareness and victim support.

I don't call myself a feminist or a MRA (by a long shot) and I don't think identifying by one or the other is going to solve anything aside from divide people more.

It just creates more "my team vs yours" mentality that isn't helpful because people are put into easy to digest boxes when in actuality people are usually much more complex than that.

 

[The_Almighty_Swan]

It's stuff like this that will eventually be the end of being anonymous online. It's only a matter of time now before something REALLY bad happens and measures are put in place to rid anyone of any online anonymity.

 

[DoktorEvil]

This is disgusting, honestly.

I watch the Anita videos when they come out, but I avoid any and all discussion about them because I don't think I can take it. Even here on Gaf, it gets bad.

It always makes me realize how shit it really is for women in the gaming industry. Here is a woman, who loves gaming, and criticizes some aspects of gaming that are problematic with women. It becomes A HUGE FUCKING THING and people rush to be the first to call her cunt or stupid in some way.

If what she is saying wasn't in many ways true, her videos wouldn't be so popular. It wouldn't make people so defensive and aggressive about it. She wouldn't be getting death threats. For complaining about aspects of games she loves.

Yet we have threads and threads of dudes complaining about video games here. Isn't the joke that we here at neogaf bitch about video games more than we play them? I just don't understand it.

And of course when those threats start getting even scarier, she is automatically accused of faking it for the attention. What a novel concept! Never heard that one before!

There are women who are in the Industry and are in very important and influential positions.

Look up Corrinne Yu, Jade Raymond, Amy Hennig, Kellee Santiago, and Roberta Williams.

There should be more representation of the sexes behind the scenes, but it's a slow and steady race to do that. Schools have to introduce women to STEM and to pursue Computer Science to be in that business.

I'm really bothered by the threats but glad that her work is getting better and the message is reaching the people who are big name developers.

Edit: Art school is also a great background to have to work in that business, but coding lets you work on A.I. and systems design, which gets you closer to the director chair.

I forgot to mention Aisha Tyler, who does a lot of positive PR on behalf of female gamers. She has zero tolerance for the anti-female bullshit.

 

[Anfang]

You're trying to tell me that Straughan is not anti-feminist?

She is against the current direction feminism is going, and would rather move to egalitarianism.

Is that the MRA-organized meeting/interruption that everyone tries to use as the "feminists are crazy" card?

The way they are acting they are fucking crazy, but they have a good reason to picket. Farrells token rape is pretty jacked.

 

[stupei]

My point is that hitman is not a game where you kill strippers, so her whole critique is basically a lie. She misrepresents games constantly to fit her narrative (or agenda). That's where I take issue. Me not caring about stories is an aside.

You are actually misrepresenting her argument, funnily enough. Saying that games frequently use sexualized violence against women as background and window dressing does not in any way suggest that violence and assault against women are what these games (like Hitman) are essentially about at their core.

In fact, it clearly states that it is not.

 

[blitzcloud]

It always makes me realize how shit it really is for women in the gaming industry. Here is a woman, who loves gaming, and criticizes some aspects of gaming that are problematic with women. It becomes A HUGE FUCKING THING and people rush to be the first to call her cunt or stupid in some way.

If what she is saying wasn't in many ways true, her videos wouldn't be so popular. It wouldn't make people so defensive and aggressive about it. She wouldn't be getting death threats. For complaining about aspects of games she loves.

I thought anita wasn't a gamer?

Cant agree on the second bolded part. Truth doesn't equal popularity at all. going viral for whatever reason does.

 

[scoobidoo112]

The one thing I believed in most was exactly what feminism was, giving women an opportunity to choose our own path, and remove the roadblocks we were forced to face.

I agree completely, but I'd like to extend "women" to "all humans". Everyone should be able to choose his or her own path, regardless of race, sex, religion or anything else. (That doesn't mean that I disregard the fact that some of these issues need attention more than other at this moment).

 

[Anton Sugar]

I agree, but she communicated her points in the video he was responding to terribly. His wasn't a totally unreasonable reading of it; she really did make it sound like she was talking about specific, individual behavior resulting from playing games. She's obviously gotten better over time at communicating the underlying point about cultural influences.

Which video would that be? In the video I pulled that from, he is referencing one of her pre-production videos for Tropes Vs. Women.

[1:56] Anita Sarkeesian clip from “Anita And The White Knights” (her lecture at Santa Monica College, CA 2010): “-one song, except I’m doing videogames. So, it’s not exactly a fandom. I’m not a fan of videogames. I actually have to learn a lot about videogames in the process of making this. And also videogames—like, I would love to play videogames. But, I don’t want to go around shooting people, and ripping off their heads. And it’s just, gross. So-”

She isn't stating that she doesn't want to play videogames because they'll make her shoot people and rip off heads in the real world--she's saying she has no interest in doing that in video games.

[2:31] Anita Sarkeesian clip from “Support My Kickstarter Project – Tropes vs Women in Video Games”: “And as with all pop culture media, the gaming industry is playing a role in helping to shape our society. Either by challenging, or more often, reinforcing existing values, beliefs, and behaviors.”
[2:42] Thunderf00t: Yes, that&#8217;s right. Games clearly have an influence on society. I mean, it&#8217;s obvious, isn&#8217;t it, that rescuing girls will make society more sexist. While games where you <Anita Sarkeesian> &#8220;go around shooting people and ripping off their heads&#8221; will clearly make it more likely that you will uh, kill people and rip off their heads. Huh. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the very core of Anita&#8217;s proposition here is bullshit:
[3:10] &#8220;And as with all pop culture media, the gaming industry is playing a role in helping to shape our society. Either by challenging, or more often, reinforcing existing values, beliefs, and behaviors.&#8221;
[3:20] &#8220;to go around shooting people and ripping off their heads&#8221;
[3:23] Thunderf00t: -that the whole crusade that she&#8217;s got here against games she doesn&#8217;t even play is built on one, single, fundamentally wrong premise?

Anita never states this. He connects two imaginary dots and criticizes that.

She is against the current direction feminism is going, and would rather move to egalitarianism.

Which direction would that be?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Why don't they just call themselves feminists then?

I would prefer people just use the term "egalitarian" since that's what we should all be promoting. That or "humanist" is a less "othering" term and is less likely to create these "us vs them" mentalities. It covers all our bases: sex, race, religion, orientation, etc.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I would prefer people just use the term "egalitarian" since that's what we should all be promoting. That or "humanist" is a less "othering" term and is less likely to create these "us vs them" mentalities. It covers all our bases: sex, race, religion, orientation, etc.

It still creates "us vs them" because it tells women that their feelings weren't right or appropriate until we all agreed to go under the banner men felt more comfortable with.

 

[Anfang]

Which direction would that be?

Watch her speeches or listen to her podcast if you really want to know.

 

[blitzcloud]

I have a lot of friends trying to break into animation and gaming, after taking several years of school for it, can only find teaching jobs. It's a bit depressing.

The thing that upsets me the most is that any vocal woman online that talks about being a gamer is going to be attacked. Constantly. Especially if she dares speak any criticism of games at all.

genuinely interested, for anecdotal sake... do you have male friends pursuing the same dreams being successful?

 

[ishibear]

the idea that it is the most common and that the issues/concerns of african americans or other races are actually given equal footing to other feminist issues. The feed back i get from a lot of sistas/ black females is discouraging, that word for now is just an ideal for them.

I'm a black woman and I have faith in feminism. It has it's flaws but the movement really is improving. It's going to take time but there's so many movements within this movement that it encourages me to stay proud.

I agree that feminism covers a lot of bases and support true equality, but feminism doesn't address family law issues for me like it should. Nor does it work on male rape awareness and victim support.

I don't call myself a feminist or a MRA (by a long shot) and I don't think identifying by one or the other is going to solve anything aside from divide people more.

It just creates more "my team vs yours" mentality that isn't helpful because people are put into easy to digest boxes when in actuality people are usually much more complex than that.

That's something many are looking to remedy.

It comes from the stereotype that women can do no wrong and we're always the one supposed to be responsible for children.

Feminism is even looking to acknowledge the dark side to women so society can stop painting women as weak. We are aware that women can be rapists. We first have to eliminate stereotypes about our innocence.

 

[RMI]

In the end my point was that one should stand for equality for everyone and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

fair enough.

 

[Moon_frogger]

It's these types of things that make me wonder if we'd all be better off without an open-access internet.

Or at least redesign the internet to remove all anonymity and replace IP addresses with actual names/account holders.

It's crazy that I'm actually forced to agree with this . I've been an asshole on the internet before but this... These people belong in prison.

 

[RageBot]

MRAs are like the guys who think there should be a 'Straight Pride' and a 'White History Month'. Feminism already addresses male concerns, particularly those who don't conform to stereotypical male gender roles, professions, aspirations, emotions etc.

The strawman type? Yeah.
People who actually identify as MRA?
They mostly care about things like divorce courts, the difference in law treatment between female and male abusers (check things like Duluth method) and things that pretty much have nothing to do with teenagers and young adult, but mostly to married men.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It still creates "us vs them" because it tells women that their feelings weren't right or appropriate until we all agreed to go under the banner men felt more comfortable with.

Perhaps. But it also makes it clear that we aren't one trick ponies concerned about one social issue and that we want good things for all people everywhere. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a more broad "equality" label.

 

[kirblar]

It still creates "us vs them" because it tells women that their feelings weren't right or appropriate until we all agreed to go under the banner men felt more comfortable with.

When men hear "Men can't be feminists" from self-described feminist women, is it any wonder that many of them end up uncomfortable with the label?

 

[VibratingDonkey]

Yes, so instead of listening and / or responding to his arguments let's just attack his character! How is this any different from attacking Anita on the basis of "she's a feminist"?.

PS: You can be against the current feminist movement for all sorts of reasons and still be for equality.

Why would I want to listen to this guy?

That became my first impression of him, and he does not strike me as a rational person, or worth listening to. An empathy-deficient individual who will post uncorroborated garbage to strengthen his version of the narrative and jump to the assumption that the other party is lying or being dishonest, directly in the face of logic and rationality.

 

[blitzcloud]

I have seen her talk about playing video games many times? Or is she 'not a gamer' in that way all girls are not actually gamers?

I thought she declared not to be fan of games, which is what i'd consider a gamer.

 

[stupei]

Prime example of why a rational discussion about this topic is virtually impossible. Whether you like ThunderFoot or not (as a person), he makes some good arguments and to dismiss him as if he is just a misogynistic asshole out to milk a topic for attention is ridiculous and just does damage to the conversation. You have someone making calm and argument-based video responses and he's still thrown on the pile of "women haters". Throwing all of his subscribers on this pile as well is even more ridiculous, as well as assuming all of them are men who "won't take it laying down".

Isn't he the one who has a video called "If Men Argued Like Feminists" that has a picture of a little girl crying as its promo shot?

You think it's unfair to assume someone like that isn't arguing in good faith? Really?

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

I just heard about this issue my initial reaction was "WTF?!"

I mean I know a lot of people disagree with her but death threats is going too far.

 

[scoobidoo112]

Can we petition EvilLore to make MRA defense a bannable offense?
LOL how many of you idiots have to get banned before you learn your lesson.

You shouldn't ban people for asking questions, nor should you be backseat-modding.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

When men hear "Men can't be feminists" from self-described feminist women, is it any wonder that many of them end up uncomfortable with the label?

Understandable, but I've always seen those sorts of statements as being made in response to men using feminist terms and ideas as manipulative ways of getting women to trust them, not entirely about men needing the personal experience necessary to fill the role.

 

[Toxi]

Are these the tweets she's referring to?

Stupid image removed

Edit: I'm legitimately asking, that just happens to be the image the tweets are in, if anyone wants to provide a compilation of the tweets without that stuff then I'll edit that it instead.

The threat she's concerned about tweeted her address.

Also, haha holy shit. "The speed at which this was written", had the person who made that image ever taken a typing class?

 

[TRI Mike]

I've never agreed with her videos but it's really shitty to see people harrasing and threatening her like that. These assholes who hide behind online anonimity need to stop.

 

[jon bones]

You shouldn't ban people for asking questions, nor should you be backseat-modding.

duly noted

having said that, read the laughable picture the kid uploaded

 

[dubq]

The threat she's concerned about tweeted her address.

Also, haha holy shit. "The speed at which this was written", had the person who made that image ever taken a typing class?

Also: why make a big deal out of a search? Like you can't just go to the Twitter users front page without using a search?

 

[Anton Sugar]

When men hear "Men can't be feminists" from self-described feminist women, is it any wonder that many of them end up uncomfortable with the label?

How often do you hear that? Now, maybe more than ever (considering the mainstream support that feminism has gotten lately), there is a willingness and desire for male allies in the feminist movement.

Watch her speeches or listen to her podcast if you really want to know.

Oh, I have. She's completely wrong. She twists and demonizes feminism so she can better tear it down.

 

[Gestault]

Which video would that be? In the video I pulled that from, he is referencing one of her pre-production videos for Tropes Vs. Women.

Unless memory is failing me, she uses parts of that script in Women as Background Decoration part 1, where she references studies about the effects of media on behavior, but it gets characterized it in a really odd, overly direct way. That segment in particular sounded bone-headed to me, but you can tell she made adjustment to the phrasing in some of the same ideas for Part 2.

 

[blitzcloud]

Yep, actually, but considering there are more of them then that could be the reason. /shrug

than that is indeed a sad scenario. I'm actually a living proof of that scenario. No woman employed at the company I work at. then again... soccer videogame.

 

[ishibear]

The strawman type? Yeah.
People who actually identify as MRA?
They mostly care about things like divorce courts, the difference in law treatment between female and male abusers (check things like Duluth method) and things that pretty much have nothing to do with teenagers and young adult, but mostly to married men.

Feminism is focused on this.

I feel the need to bring this to attention so that maybe this can be helpful.

Feminism helps men as much as women. Feminism is encouraging men to be free of traditional standards, such as being the bread winner, having to be the picture of masculinity and a protector, etc.

Feminism grants men a window of opportunity to make choices for themselves as well. You don't want to be the provider? You can find a girl who works and be a team. You don't want to come out of pocket at a date? A woman can work and pay for dinner now too.

You don't want to settle down and marry early? Good news, it's less shameful for women to enjoy their single life too. They can even buy condoms, birth control to enjoy a sex life without slut accusations.

This is what feminism strives for, and men do benefit from it.

 

[Gekidami]

By "this person" I assume you mean Anita Sarkeesian? She has a twitter account, a web site, and presumably an email.

I've never once even heard of her respond to any form of interrogation about her videos, no matter how constructive the criticism. No matter the format of the proposed discussion (its why i always find the "she just wants to start a discussion with her videos" point quite funny because shes probably the most closed person around on this topic).

I mean good luck getting her to respond to any valid questions. I guess she does paid speaking engagements, but even then she barely ever talks about the actual content of her videos and instead talks about the concept & how trolled she gets.

 

[dubq]

duly noted

having said that, read the laughable picture the kid uploaded

Did he upload that or was he just asking if those were the tweets that people were talking about? I can't even find the post anymore..

 

[DoktorEvil]

I have a lot of friends trying to break into animation and gaming, after taking several years of school for it, can only find teaching jobs. It's a bit depressing.

The thing that upsets me the most is that any vocal woman online that talks about being a gamer is going to be attacked. Constantly. Especially if she dares speak any criticism of games at all.

School helps, but systems planning and playing a LOT of games gives you more experiences at understanding logic of how a game is supposed to operate and run.

A lot of the bigger developer names have had school, but they also played a LOT of D&D/Tabletop with games which required you to map out and design a game on paper or worked in QA .

Is that something they've learned in school?

Otherwise, the animation and game design schools that exist out there I'd say are manipulative and teach you how to do a certain task, not necessarily how to think big picture, budget your time and assets to use game tools to build something, price it, and publish it.

They might benefit from the FAQ threads here on GAF for Unity Tools or Game Maker Pro.

Most of the development studios also are located in the coasts in the US or in the UK/European countries, so there's also relocation and the possibility of being a perpetual freelancer.

As far as the verbal attacks, GAF is a minority, Reddit is a minority. Some people have more vocal voices than others, but that doesn't mean at large people don't want to see more diversity.

 

[Lambtron]

Perhaps. But it also makes it clear that we aren't one trick ponies concerned about one social issue and that we want good things for all people everywhere. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a more broad "equality" label.

Feminists aren't "one trick ponies" either.

There are actual reasons to have concerns with the label but all this "needs to be about equality for all!" is such a terrible argument, and it's just a waste.

 

[APF]

I'll accept MRAs (and "egalitarians") when they're not demonstrably more concerned about concern-trolling women than they are about effecting actual political change.

 

[JackDT]

When I watch the Hitman the scene before it as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Q_a5OHFnA&t=1m45s

the whole missions setting of a strip club just screams let's be dark and edgy and have a bunch of naked women in the background.

 

[RMI]

I've never once even heard of her respond to any form of interrogation about her videos, no matter how constructive the criticism. No matter the format of the proposed discussion (its why i always find the "she just wants to start a discussion with her videos" point quite funny because shes probably the most closed person around on this topic).

I mean good luck getting her to respond to any valid questions.

There used to be comments under her youtube videos. You can imagine how that turned out.

 

[jon bones]

Did he upload that or was he just asking if those were the tweets that people were talking about? I can't even find the post anymore..

seems the posts were removed. the kid apologized and said he was just curious about the tweets. suspicious as it sounds, i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

let's move on.

I'll accept MRAs (and "egalitarians") when they're not demonstrably more concerned about concern-trolling women than they are about effecting actual political change.

I agree but it's so rare to actually see their legitimate concerns made... which is a shame, as those issues do need to be addressed as well.

I actually don't think I've ever seen a thread with a majority of the MRAs actually adding to the discussion instead of steering it away.

 

[Cymbal Head]

I'll accept MRAs (and "egalitarians") when they're not demonstrably more concerned about concern-trolling women than they are about effecting actual political change.

Exactly this. I've seen more "egalitarians" derail a thread by turning it into a discussion about why the real issue is what name we use to describe our concerns than I have seen actually discussing how to address those concerns.

 

[Trey]

Exactly this. I've seen more "egalitarians" derail a thread by turning it into a discussion about why the real issue is what name we use to describe our concerns than I have seen actually discussion how to address those concerns.

I'll accept MRAs (and "egalitarians") when they're not demonstrably more concerned about concern-trolling women than they are about effecting actual political change.

Yep.

 

[J10]

Why are dudes bitching over nomenclature? Women can't even coin a fucking term for a movement that aims to put them on even footing with their other halves without men going "WHAT ABOUT US?"