Sakurai essay in EDGE on appealing to all types of gamers with the new Smash Bros.

No no shh let's stop for a moment and actually read that back to ourselves.

He was able to throw out forward airs without being punished even though they have large lag, down airs without being punished even though they have insane lag, he actually hit the other guy with a bloody Bowser Bomb from the top of the stage because the other guy was too dumb/slow to just roll out of the way and punish it, he was able to constantly ftilt the other guy to guard the edge because the other guy was too dumb to sweetspot the ledge instead of constantly recovering high.

The other guy was not good and Larry was able to capitalise on it by doing a lot of risky stuff that you won't see when it's two good players playing with money on the line, the fact that he 4-0'd the other guy so convincingly with unsafe approaches just shows how bad the other guy was.

And why should anyone trust your opinion on this?

No-one should, I'm just saying what happened at SDCC isn't as indicative of what the game is like compared to the invitational and we haven't seen anything yet that would prove otherwise.
 
He was able to throw out forward airs without being punished even though they have large lag, down airs without being punished even though they have insane lag, he actually hit the other guy with a bloody Bowser Bomb from the top of the stage because the other guy was too dumb/slow to just roll out of the way and punish it, he was able to constantly ftilt the other guy to guard the edge because the other guy was too dumb to sweetspot the ledge instead of constantly recovering high.

The other guy was not good and Larry was able to capitalise on it by doing a lot of risky stuff that you won't see when it's two good players playing with money on the line, the fact that he 4-0'd the other guy so convincingly with unsafe approaches just shows how bad the other guy was.
I'll genuinely be glad to hear your feelings once you get your hands on the game. Got this crazy feeling you've made your mind up though, don't know why.
 
If you want to argue the players playing characters at the best of their human ability the actual match is going to depend on the given situation. No amount of observation or over analysis is going to mean anything other then gauging a character's basic strengths and weaknesses.
 
It's a bit sad that he doesn't really seem to understand how his own game (Melee) developed. Too bad.
Melee controls were never complicated, otherwise my wife would've complained. Guess what, she never did.

I never played Brawl but I definitely don't remember finding the Melee controls to be complicated.
I played that game loads in dorms against other casual gamers ane I never remember anyone complaining about the controls being complicated either...
 
I'll genuinely be glad to hear your feelings once you get your hands on the game. Got this crazy feeling you've made your mind up though, don't know why.

I've bought a japanese 3DS to get it 3 weeks early and plan to use as much of my own income as possible to try and grow the local smash scene in my area, I've bought streaming equipment so I can record tournaments, friendlies and other content when the WiiU version releases.

It's probably going to be good, but the reason I'm as disappointed as I am is because it's close to being fucking perfect, and that, combined with Sakurai's general opinion is incredibly frustrating.


I'm as cynical as I am about the game because the last time I hoped a new Smash was going to be the best thing ever, I got Brawl.
 
If you want to argue the players playing characters at the best of their human ability the actual match is going to depend on the given situation. No amount of observation or over analysis is going to mean anything other then gauging a character's basic strengths and weaknesses.
It's like how I view sports commentators honestly; completley talking out of their backside for 60% of the time.
 
Like I said in the Smash thread, I don't understand how Melee's controls are "complicated."
Yeah... novice players love Melee. Not sure what the issue is

I assume complicated refers to executing moves like wave dashing. I did find those difficult but rarely played experts at the game who could execute them. I'm sure online would be a different story but... more reason to get better.
 
The speed might be (slightly) faster than brawl, but the endlag on aerials and normals and the lack of momentum conservation still makes it feel sluggish and with your character stuck in most of the time needlessly long animations being unable to do anything. Useless dash dancing window means you have to commit to the horrible dashes more and dashes are less useful due to a lack of crouch cancelling.

If you don't notice that sort of subtle stuff then you might think it is faster, but the people who can go from Melee or Project M to Brawl and instantly notice those differences can still feel it.
 
I assume complicated refers to executing moves like wave dashing. I did find those difficult but rarely played experts at the game who could execute them. I'm sure online would be a different story but... more reason to get better.

Yeah, stuff like wave dashing, L-canceling, combos, dash dancing, etc. On competitive levels Melee required a lot of knowledge on techniques you aren't taught and really fast inputs and reaction. Still, that doesn't mean that casuals can't enjoy the game. My friends had a lot of fun with it ever since the game launched, its our longest played game ever, even though we were playing strictly casual for years.
 
This game is going to be fun as hell and will become my new go to multiplayer game. I don't see it repeating the mistakes of Brawl from what I've seen. The characters look fast and responsive. The balance looks pretty good too. Maybe it's not hardcore enough for the tournament scene, but outside of a vocal minority, I predict smash fans will be very happy with the final game.
 
Basically, we have a professional game designer working with some of the industry's leading talents expressing that has no fucking conception of "Low Entry-Barrier" and "High-Ceiling" and that these concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Miyamoto, talk to this man.
 
Basically, we have a professional game designer working with some of the industry's leading talents expressing that has no fucking conception of "Low Entry-Barrier" and "High-Ceiling" and that these concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Miyamoto, talk to this man.

he drives me nuts and I find it strange how he manages to hold to some of his whacky views

i hope in his tell-all autobiography someday that he'll breakdown the unexplainable and confusion angst melee's success seems to cause in him
 
If tournament popularity was the most important consideration, then I think we would create a Smash Bros. game that included a multitude of fast moves with complicated controls.

This statement makes me think that he still doesn't realize what makes a competitive game competitive. It's not necessarily being the fastest and most complicated. If that were the case, Street Fighter 4 wouldn't be the most popular fighting game currently played.

Still, at least he acknowledges the competitive crowd this time instead of completely fucking them over on purpose.
 
Basically, we have a professional game designer working with some of the industry's leading talents expressing that has no fucking conception of "Low Entry-Barrier" and "High-Ceiling" and that these concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Miyamoto, talk to this man.

You'd think that working with Namco would change his mind. Aren't some Gundam vs Gundam folks working on Smash as well? I heard that game is pretty easy to get into and doesn't require that much crazy execution.
 
Basically, we have a professional game designer working with some of the industry's leading talents expressing that has no fucking conception of "Low Entry-Barrier" and "High-Ceiling" and that these concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Miyamoto, talk to this man.

Yep. He's a great developer, but he needs to work on this concept.
 
You'd think that working with Namco would change his mind. Aren't some Gundam vs Gundam folks working on Smash as well? I heard that game is pretty easy to get into and doesn't require that much crazy execution.

Yeah, but Sakurai is still the one making most of the calls and design decisions. And like a lot of Nintendo's old guard he's pretty hard-headed.
 
Basically, we have a professional game designer working with some of the industry's leading talents expressing that has no fucking conception of "Low Entry-Barrier" and "High-Ceiling" and that these concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Miyamoto, talk to this man.

please :,(
 
I'm glad the speed is somewhat inbetween Brawl and Melee. Brawl was way to slow and defensive for me, I hated it. Melee was too fast for me. Back when it first came out, I was fairly good at it and the speed didn't matter to me. Last time I played it was 2006. I tried it the other day and it was just too fast.
 
His view of the situation is frustrating to me, as someone who is on the tournament side of the dichotomy.

This in particular:
As a result of these considerations, overall Brawl is rather tame game; this had its advantages, but it also took away some of the excitement.

While there’s a lot of enthusiasm for tournaments on the one hand, there are also users who just give up on these sorts of games because they can’t handle the complexity and speed. While other fighting games continue to work on honing this tournament aspect, I think that we need to move in a direction where there is more of a focus on inexperienced gamers.
How can he say things like this one after another? "We tried it last time and it kinda worked but mostly the game suffered. So this time, we're going to keep focusing on the inexperienced!"

I get that he made Smash Bros. to appeal to people that found fighting games difficult. I really do. I'm one of those people; I'd never be able to hold my own in traditional fighting games, they're far too difficult.

But there's no where else to go for more games like Melee. I don't care that Capcom and Arc Sys or whoever are making plenty of games for tournaments, because those aren't the games I like to play. I want more Smash, but it seems like the developer is trying to prevent the new Smash Bros. games from being exciting.

It's conjecture... but in large part, I'd guess the people that give up on these games don't do so because the game is too fast paced. They do it because of input barriers, and especially because they get discouraged by playing people that are vastly better than them. The former can be fixed by removing silly stuff like L-cancelling and wavedashing, and the latter can't be fixed without turning your game into pure RNG.

I recognize that he has different goals and plans for the series, and that there are more novices buying and playing the game than people like me. I guess I'm just venting, and the above can be disregarded. It just bothers me that a series I love is led by a guy who regrets his best game, and does so for the same reasons I loved it.
If tournament popularity was the most important consideration, then I think we would create a Smash Bros. game that included a multitude of fast moves with complicated controls.
This line also really gets on my nerves. Fast moves, yeah. But he acts as if complicated controls (for the sake of being complicated) are some prerequisite for a competitive game. No one wants the controls to be complicated!
 
His view of the situation is frustrating to me, as someone who is on the tournament side of the dichotomy.

you are forgetting the best one :P :

"Melee’s controls were, however, quite complicated and very tiring if the player really got into it in a serious way. This made the game less accessible for novice players..."

read that again... WHAT!?
 
I trust Sakurai. He's a better game designer than most, and he knows what he's doing.

Yeah. It really is beating a dead horse at this point.

Look forward to Wii U Homebrew peoples.

you are forgetting the best one :P :

"Melee’s controls were, however, quite complicated and very tiring if the player really got into it in a serious way. This made the game less accessible for novice players..."

read that again... WHAT!?

Does anyone have evidence against Sakurai in this case? All I have seen are the "me and my friends are casuals" or "my friend that is a casual," and then they go on to say how they had no problem with Melee or something of the like.

I mean, no one ever ask Sakurai where he gets these ideas (play testing? who knows lol), but at the same time I never see any decent arguments on the other end. The other end being the end that is in favor of it being more competitive.

There is casual and there is hardcore, but there is also a HUUUUGE in between. It's not as black and white as people suggest, a lot of people play these games. So perhaps the whole, "make it hardcore, THE CASUALS WON'T NOTICE." Is far easier said than done.
 
I love the fact that he admits to Brawl not being as exciting due to it's dumbed down gameplay.

Bring on Smash IV, I can't wait.
 
So what I'm taking away from this is: "I don't like how Smash developed into some hardcore bastion so we're making the game appeal to casual players while throwing the hardcore something so they don't start bitching."

Does reaffirm my belief that Sakurai never meant for the game to become this tournament style fighter and wanted the game just to be fun and frenetic with friends.
 
I remember someone mentioning on either GAF or a stream that a Melee player presses a bout 10 bttons per second

Yeah fuck that

that's bullshit, APM tops out at like 250 for extremely technical Fox players (this is pretty much SilentWolf tier APM) and is often significantly lower
 
Yeah. It really is beating a dead horse at this point.

Look forward to Wii U Homebrew peoples.



Does anyone have evidence against Sakurai in this case? All I have seen are the "me and my friends are casuals" or "my friend that is a casual," and then they go on to say how they had no problem with Melee or something of the like.

I mean, no one ever ask Sakurai where he gets these ideas (play testing? who knows lol), but at the same time I never see any decent arguments on the other end. The other end being the end that is in favor of it being more competitive.

There is casual and there is hardcore, but there is also a HUUUUGE in between. It's not as black and white as people suggest, a lot of people play these games. So perhaps the whole, "make it hardcore, THE CASUALS WON'T NOTICE." Is far easier said than done.

Not only that, but people probably aren't even considering that maybe Japanese people are the ones who had a problem with Melee. You know, the audience that Sakurai listens to the most?
 
I don't see the problem with having a choice with this. Melee sold a lot, and wavedashing existing didn't stop casual players from enjoying it, it probably made some casual players enjoy it more ast hey practiced. So I don't agree at all with his point of view on this. Players are going to buy this because it's mario, link, pikachu and those other people beating the shit out of each other. Deeper mechanics and faster gameplay wouldn't alienate the casual players at all.
 
It's just funny to me how he says that hard-core gamers aren't his focus, but he's trying to appeal to both hard-core gamers and casual gamers.

But we have very different needs as gamers, and trying to middle ground the approach often makes both parties suffer and is a very difficult game to design for. I don't understand, because if he just designed the game for the consumer base he has now, his game would still sell gangbusters. No game appeals to EVERYONE and it doesn't need to.

IMO Let Mario Kart be the two button multi-player game casuals can get into. Don't dumb down this game with shit like tripping and low gravity to make it appeal to casuals like you did last time.

I was a young, early gamer when I was introduced to Melee, but my interest in the characters and items kept me playing and I got better.
 
The rest makes sense, this particular part makes me think that he still doesn't fully grasp what people who play competitively actually like about it.

Haven't you heard, a large reason why people like Melee so much is because they like "pressing buttons" as Wobbles likes to say. Tech-skill, tech-skill, tech_skill.
 
I'll just quote myself from the Smash OT

Sakurai seems to really believe that any move made to address the concerns of tournament players will immediately result in some design that sends casual players running. Which...just isn't true. It isn't even true of more traditional fighters like Tekken or Street Fighter. There are people who have fun with those games who will never do an EGWF or FADC, just like there were tons of people who loved Melee and couldn't care less about wavedashing.

The guy's stance on this issue is just baffling.
 
So what I'm taking away from this is: "I don't like how Smash developed into some hardcore bastion so we're making the game appeal to casual players while throwing the hardcore something so they don't start bitching."

Does reaffirm my belief that Sakurai never meant for the game to become this tournament style fighter and wanted the game just to be fun and frenetic with friends.

He's expressed that opinion in past interviews.

Very curious how this game will be recieved. I have a feeling only a small group of gamers still care about Smash.

It will take a few years at least for Smash 4 to loose appeal with the competitive scene if it's found to be lacking and it's very popular with the casual crowd. The game will be well received.
 
I wouldn't think it'd be too hard to put in a "fast" setting considering SF II Turbo did it on the SNES (actually had a ton of "turbo" speed levels).
 
Why do people keep bringing up Ganondorf?

Like, 90% of all the veterans are the exact same as Brawl. Even Mario with his FLUDD.
 
A lot of the Brawl changes that made the game easier to play improved the series overall. At the same time, certain absences from Melee brought it down in a few areas.

From my extensive experience with both games, trying to find a middle ground, while also giving Smash 4 it's own separate identity is the ideal situation.

Besides, Sakurai is a fantastic game designer so I'm totally behind whatever does. Smash wouldn't nearly be such an amazing series without him. Keep doing what you do, Sakurai.
 
Why do people keep bringing up Ganondorf?

Like, 90% of all the veterans are the exact same as Brawl. Even Mario with his FLUDD.

Most fighters keep their move sets from previous games, that's expected. But what's different about Ganondorf is that from the start he shouldn't have had that move set. The only reason he got it in Melee was due to that game's rushed development, which can't be said about Brawl or 3DS/U. It's really frustrating as he already has a unique fightstyle in the Zelda series which looks nothing like his smash self.
 
Really, the only thing Smash WiiU requires is a reliable means of precision ground control/spacing to be interesting beyond the party game aesthetics. Read: Dash Dancing.

Without that, the game isn't going to be much better than Brawl.
 
Can I also just say that the idea of making the game faster in an of itself really has no bearing on the "competitiveness".
 
Most fighters keep their move sets from previous games, that's expected. But what's different about Ganondorf is that from the start he shouldn't have had that move set. The only reason he got it in Melee was due to that game's rushed development, which can't be said about Brawl or 3DS/U. It's really frustrating as he already has a unique fightstyle in the Zelda series which looks nothing like his smash self.

Already has a moveset. Will never change. Most of the veterans that got new moves only got them because of things like losing transformation moves. Or they're Sakurai's new hotness (Pit), an actually popular title character for Nintendo who is no longer just a roaring beast dragon (Bowser), or shameless sex appeal (laser high heels ugh).

Hell, if the main Zelda games keep leaving out Ganondorf they'll just keep using Twilight Princess character models until the end of time.


It will take them finally admitting that they are unable to add a ton of newcomers, and thus instead focus on updating the combat of the game and the movesets of the existing characters.
 
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